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My VANTAGE HD has ARRIVED!!!!! - Page 2

post #31 of 1635
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

HDMI is annoying the heck out of me.

Been experiencing tons of compatibility issues in the last few months as well. The resolution and HDCP protocols SUCK. No one is implementing them right because they're so damned complex...

This makes us so happy to see one of our best and moderator make such a statement. I feel sorry for the brands who have to try to get these things and upcoming things to work. All for contentmakers who fear us the people who gave them a whole new (dvd) market bigger than they could ever have hoped for. Their greed will be their downfall but the road there will be hell for us the lovers of movies and ht.

Daniel.
post #32 of 1635
I just hope that its a HDMI version, release, issue.

If its HDMI 1.3, or whatever, that is the latest release .. if they are in full compliance with that and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are as well (and they work).. then I will be able to live with getting my DVHS, Cable, and 777ES off of component.

On the other hand, if when I get my HD-DVD player and discs next month and they DONT work, and I have to live with 540p worth of video off of component, Im gonna be one pissed off bitch.
post #33 of 1635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbas View Post

That file has somewhat decreased my excitement with the Vantage HD.
Abbas

same here. or rather, worse, it made me feel very uncomfortable abt the integrity of this company. Yes HDMI has issues, no problem, we know abt it. But instead of admitting this problem it went on to say (ok, imply) HDMI is an inferior connection than analogue ?! and ask us to use analogue for SD sources ??! I mean, the whole purpose of a HDMI SD interlaced output is for such video processor product to exist. How can you categorily say use analogue only ? It's perfectly ok to say HDMI has issues. It's even ok (at least for me) to release it knowing there is HDMI problem (who doesn't ?), but please dun tell the world of videophiles component connection is better than HDMI for SD sources. It's almost like : since I can't get it, it's bad. No matter the reason it can't get HDMI issues right is not really its fault.

I just hope that document is from some real ill-informed PR department, trying to be smart to cover some issues, which were never really their fault anyway.

EDIT: okay it's late, I'm getting a bit worked up. I know it's not this company's fault. I just find this statement hard to swallow:

Quote:


HDMI is only an 8-bit connection system whereas Vantage-HD has true
10-bit processing capability from input through to output on its analog video
channels.

it's implying we should use analogue inputs because vantage "has true 10 bit" blah blah and HDMI is only "8-bit". (No need to dwell into whether HDMI is just 8 bit or not. Not even relevant) I think everyone here would have thought the reason we have to use analogue is because of HDMI compatibility issues, not because its analogue input is superior.
post #34 of 1635
[quote=mark haflich]Relayers have now solved the problem by being enabled to lie to the source, saying it is the display and then asking the display itself whether it is HDMI/HDCP. Hopefully, the calibre does this or there indeed will be problems with any source that doesn't send the second request.QUOTE]

The problem with this is the "Key Revocation Lists", if your VP is placed on this list by the HDCP licensing body the cryptographic Authentication and Key Exchange (AKE) wont be passed and so no video will be sent from the source.
post #35 of 1635
Quote:


The problem with this is the "Key Revocation Lists", if your VP is placed on this list by the HDCP licensing body the cryptographic Authentication and Key Exchange (AKE) wont be passed and so no video will be sent from the source.

latepmas,

Are you saying that something will flag your own specific VP or all of the VPs like the one you own? For example, will it be all VP30s if I was using a HDMI repeater with a VP30, or just my VP30 (my serial number?)

Or are you saying that this pertains to some specific workaround that could be employed by any manufacturer?
post #36 of 1635
Sorry, if that doesnt make sense too much .. my four month old woke me up this morning and now I cant go back to sleep.
post #37 of 1635
I think I will wait until my Vantage HD arrives and I connect everything up before I complain about issues that may or may not exist. This group is just a little too anxious to cut off Calibre's balls before anyone even tries out one of their products. First you complain that it is taking way too long for the product to be released, and now you are complaining about HDMI problems before you even know if they exist.

And BTW, I didn't see anything in print from Calibre suggesting the use of analogue outputs, but I did read where they suggested the use analogue inputs for SD sources. This is a far cry from claiming that analogue is superior to digital, or any other such claims.

Also, the issues regarding audio and HDMI have been well known for over a year, and from what I understand it is most definitely an issue with HDMI itself, not the manufacturers' implementation of it (Calibre or anyone else's). Take a look back at the first few pages of this thread where Calibre talked about this, while also mentioning that the vast majority of people will probably want to send their audio via S/PDIF separately in order to assure that HDMI won't reduce the audio to 2 channels. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want my audio to go through HDMI, even if it worked perfectly. I prefer to have complete control of the digital audio signal through S/PDIF and my pre/pro.

HDMI is your enemy, not Calibre!

Maybe I'll feel different once my Vantage HD gets here, as all of my connections will be via DVI/HDMI (adding even more possibility for problems), but I am going to take a "wait and see" attitude until I try it out for myself. Believe me, I will report whatever happens good or bad!
post #38 of 1635
Thread Starter 
Right - about to start setup of the unit. Had a very busy day yesterday and had to bite my enthusiasm for a while.

Have taken it out of the box and laid everything out - There is the unit, and a 5v external power supply such as a laptop would use, and a manual and warranty card.

The unit itself is metal but pretty light.

Have done a first pass on the manual - it seems the unit will allow you to associate the audio inputs with specific video inputs, which I need. Not sure yet whether it counts the two HDMI ports as separate audio inputs from the two digital.

The manual states that the unit does indeed perform HDMI "Pass thru requests" to the display device, so it would appear that this feature is implemented. You can set the menu to enable or disble this feature, depending on the capabilities of your display.

There is mention of Gamma remapping in the manual, but no walk through or images, so I'll have to wait for setup to see what is on offer. The research I did before purchase indicated that you can choose between various gamma modes, but could not enter your own custom Gamma curve. I'm assuming that this is still the case, but it's one of he areas I'll be checking out in more detail.

I have two units that I'll be testing the VHD with - one is my 32" Samsung LCD TV, which uses HDMI and has a 1366x768 panel. The other is my JVC DiLA HD2K which is 1920 x 1080. The audio for the HD2K will be handled by my Denon AVR-3805.

I'll be setting the VHD to the Samsung first, for two reasons. The VHD defaults to 640 x 480 display from the factory, and I'll need to set it up on something other than the HD2K anyway, which doesn't bother with that res. Second, I expect less issues getting the sound out on the Samsung, than playing with splitting between the HD2K and Denon.

Alright - I'll check back as I go along.....
post #39 of 1635
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I think I will wait until my Vantage HD arrives and I connect everything up before I complain about issues that may or may not exist. This group is just a little too anxious to cut off Calibre's balls before anyone even tries out one of their products. First you complain that it is taking way too long for the product to be released, and now you are complaining about HDMI problems before you even know if they exist.

And BTW, I didn't see anything in print from Calibre suggesting the use of analogue outputs, but I did read where they suggested the use analogue inputs for SD sources. This is a far cry from claiming that analogue is superior to digital, or any other such claims.

Also, the issues regarding audio and HDMI have been well known for over a year, and from what I understand it is most definitely an issue with HDMI itself, not the manufacturers' implementation of it (Calibre or anyone else's). Take a look back at the first few pages of this thread where Calibre talked about this, while also mentioning that the vast majority of people will probably want to send their audio via S/PDIF separately in order to assure that HDMI won't reduce the audio to 2 channels. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want my audio to go through HDMI, even if it worked perfectly. I prefer to have complete control of the digital audio signal through S/PDIF and my pre/pro.

HDMI is your enemy, not Calibre!

Maybe I'll feel different once my Vantage HD gets here, as all of my connections will be via DVI/HDMI (adding even more possibility for problems), but I am going to take a "wait and see" attitude until I try it out for myself. Believe me, I will report whatever happens good or bad!

I agree Bob - No one should jump to conclusions yet. I'll be trying both HDMI and DVI/HDMI with my two displays, so hopefully I'll be able to shine some light on the status. The issue really has been the HDMI standard itself, not the manufacturers.

And I probably will handle the audio separately also, as I am doing now with my Faroudja 1010 box - although I'm sure that I'll find one or two of my source players that will end up working perfectly through HDMI.

I'll update as I go along with the setup today.

*** UPDATE ***

Having now used the Vantage HD for a couple of weeks now, I can confirm that the HDMI inputs function just fine.

The problems that some have reported here do exist, but my experience is that they result from the implementation of HDMI on certain source players (like my Denon 3910) and are mostly related to the audio.

I have found no fault with the Vantage and I think that Calibre's statement on the matter was simply covering their bases and forewarning users of an issue they bump into but is not the Vantage's fault.

It also can operate in both "receiver" and "relayer" HDMI modes on each HDMI input.
post #40 of 1635
Bob. I'd rather that you didn't get one and thus not complain, than for you to get one and then complain.

Reread my posts. I think I said blame the HDMI folks, not the processor manufacturers. I have no problem using component in or SDI in for my current sources including HD. I don't think HDMI is inherently better than high quality analogue. Long transmission lengths on analogue can be a problem but I do use good solutions for my CRT FP. My BITCH with Calibre is this output at 50 or 60 hz only at 1080p. I want 72HZ for 1080p analogue and there is no reason they can't give it. 1080p 60 for film, sucks. Maybe the masses who don't know any better will buy it. yea. The masses will buy a $3k processor. Sure. And custom installers and calibrators will push it on their customers, telling him it is great on film and video. Duh./ Why are my customers willing to spend $3K to get their qualia 004 modified to get 1080p 60? They have a fine resolution for film but want better video. You see this is all about making things better, not saying one output resolution and refresh rate fits all. If that's the case, why buy it. Don't sell me racing tires for a VW bus.
post #41 of 1635
Quote:


My BITCH with Calibre is this output at 50 or 60 hz only at 1080p. I want 72HZ for 1080p analogue and there is no reason they can't give it.

Hi Mark,

I understand your gripe, but Calibre has NEVER claimed support for 1080p @ 72 hz, so this is nothing new. Your recent posts make this seem like it is a new discovery, when in fact it was discussed to death many months ago. And raising this issue again now, when the VHD is finally released, just strikes me more as a "sour grapes" attitude for support of a resolution that is needed only by CRT owners/users (though I agree that it would be nice, but not necessary to have 24 or 48 hz support). I think we can all agree that if the VHD does not meet your personal requirements, then you should not buy it...
post #42 of 1635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want my audio to go through HDMI, even if it worked perfectly. I prefer to have complete control of the digital audio signal through S/PDIF and my pre/pro.

I do agree - however- do we know for sure that we will be able to get the full bitrate uncompresssed new 7.1 audio formats from a Blu-ray player from any output other than HDMI 1.3?
post #43 of 1635
Thread Starter 
OK - Had a bit of a delay, as girlfriend had tidied up my cables box and couldn't remember where she had stored it, so I had to run out and buy a couple more HDMI cables! Oh well :-)

Have connected the unit together with my Samsung LCD (1366 x 768) and connected my JVC D-Theater DVHS Deck HM DH5U (the newer HDMI model) and my trusty Denon 3910 (also via HDMI) - I may as well go for the top end and smoke any problems early so they don't dog me later.

BTW - the power supply for the Vantage HD is dual-voltage, which is good for me, as it is likely to travel from the UK with me later this year.

Powered up the Samsung LCD and the VHD - Success so far.

The VHD defaults to 640 x 480 on startup.

The Samsung recognizes and displays the VHD on both the HDMI ports and the respective PC RGBVH monitor ports at 640 x 480 - I like this about the VHD, it has PC compatible output also - Had I had any trouble getting menus up via HDMI, I would have been able to switch over to the PC port. I'm guessing that HDCP material will not be allowed to run out of the PC port though.

cont...
post #44 of 1635
Quote:


I do agree - however- do we know for sure that we will be able to get the full bitrate uncompresssed new 7.1 audio formats from a Blu-ray player from any output other than HDMI 1.3?

PCM output up to 7.1 is in the 1.1 spec.
post #45 of 1635
Thread Starter 
Cont...

Although I am based in UK - I have material from both NTSC and PAL sources.

So since I am using a European, PAL-based version of the Samsung (LE32R41BX), I will try all the settings at 59.94 Hz first and try to break it...

The menu of the VHD is quite simple, and I'm surprised at how easy it is to choose all the various settings.

It also has a nice feature- if I choose an incompatible video mode and the LCD doesn't like it and won't display it - all I doo is press two buttons on the front of the VHD together and it instantly changes back to the default settings of 640 x 480, so that I get back the TV and try another setting. Nice touch.

OK - the VHD has TWO different 1366 x 768 modes, as the manual says that some units prefer one over the other.

So, still at 59.94, I choose mode (1) - no dice, the Samsung doesn't like it through HDMI. No probs, I'll try mode (2), again the Samsung says "Unsupported Mode" - no panic, since I expected this from the Samsung since it is PAL based. I was hoping it would support NTSC, as I intend to use it for both.

But before I move to 50 Hz, let me try those two modes through the PC ports. Ok, same message on mode (1) - but AHAH, mode (2) DOES work, although there black bands down the sides.

It is possible that the menus on the VHD are 4:3 aspect ratio, so I'll try playing a DVD at this point to find out...

*** UPDATE ***

The problems I had connecting the Vantage HD to the Samsung LCD later turned out to be that the Samsung did not support HDMI input at its native panel resolution. I had naively assumed that the Samsung should OBVIOUSLY be able to do this - but, of course that was not the case.

Once I used HDMI 720p and 1080i from the Vantage, the Samsung was just fine at both 50 and 60 Hertz.

The Samsung was a little dicey on analog inputs, but VHD was flawless.
post #46 of 1635
Thread Starter 
OWCH... That wasn't fun..

OK, before I go any further, this is probably an HDMI standards and compatinility thing. The Denon is over a year old, so is likely thinking something different in terms of HDMI than the VHD.

Whatever it is, the Denon locks up good and proper as soon as I plug HDMI into the VHD. And I'm talking locked-up, meaning I have to plug it out of the wall to get it back.. Another person on this site reported the same thing with another high-end Denon unit, so I'm curious...

Anyway, I'm clever, so I take the DVI port from the Denon, using a DVI-HDMI adapter cable and plug it into the HDV - I figure this way, the Denon will not try to communicate HDMI buddy-buddy messages with the VHD, and therefore won't get confused and lock up.

Well, I'm correct on that point, but no picture - let me check to ensure that I have DVI out selected on the Denon...

OK.. I have used the front-panel Select/Format buttons on the Denon to go through DVI and chosen 480/576/p as well as 720p and 1080i and there is no good outcome - the picture does come up for a couple of seconds while I make each mode switch, and is moving properly and looks good, then frustratingly disappears moments later, not to reappear until I make another mode switch - then disappears again.

Welcome to the bleeding edge.. (NOTE - this turned out to be HDCP issue, and was overcome by changing the HDMI input mode for that input, in the Vantage menu, to accomodate the Denon's HDMI implementation)

(NOTE - I later got the Denon working with the VHD, however, I had to set the CHD HDMI config as "repeater". Also the Samsung needed to receive video at 1280 x 720 - 720p. Also, do not have analog and HDMI plugged into the VHD from the same source unit - either the source unit or the VHD doesn't like this very much and the picture will come on briefly, but then disapper. This was true also of DVI and analog - watch out for it).

Anyway, S-Video seems to work just fine - and I've set the S-Video to use the TOS-Link 1 input on the VHD. All great, except I'm using the PC link to the Samsung LCD and there is no Audio from the VHD to the LCD. heh heh..

The Vantage HD does have a TOS-Link out as well, so I could perfectly well connect the Samsung from this - EXCEPT, I have now discovered for the first time that the Samsung does not have an Optical or coax audio input!! Holy moley - I had no idea that modern sets like this were shipping without at least ONE TOS-Link input on the back.

So end of story - if you set VHD to output 1280 x 720 (720p) to the Samsung, all will work well. However, do not have both analog and digital lines plugged into the VHD at the same time from a Denon 3910 player.

Cont....
post #47 of 1635
Thread Starter 
OK - component works great.

The Denon 3910 does not put out an interlaced SD signal over HDMI so I am stuck with 480p/576p over HDMI or interlaced over component.

My initial impression is that the picture looks richer and the colors better/truer over HDMI, but take the with a pinch of salt, as the analog may need a lot of fine tuning on my Denon.

As it stand tho, I'm not sure there's really going to be a huge difference between the Denon deinterlacing to 480p/576p or having the VHD do it.

So as I really got th VHD to deinterlace 1080i, I'll probably stick with progressive standard def from the Denon for now and save the effort for the 1080i sources.

cont...
post #48 of 1635
Thread Starter 
I couldn't resist trying a PAL DVD before moving on to the DVHS...

One thing I like about about the Vantage HD is that is shows you a realtime message on screen showing you the input and output frequencies each time one of them changes.

This display goes away after a couple of seconds - I believe the time it shows is configurable in the Vantage...

GOOD NEWS for one fellow who asked what the frame-rate conversion is like - Well, in playing NTSC DVDs (source into the Vantage at 50Hz) the Vantage can output 59.94 Hz and it is dead smooth - I really had expected some judder! Really impressive on this point.

Now I haven't tested a native 50Hz source like a home video camera, but a PAL movie DVD.

I'm not an expert, but for it to be this smooth, is it converting back to 24 fps and then upconverting to 50Hz??

cont...
post #49 of 1635
Thread Starter 
Now I really wish I could get the Samsung to accept a signal from the VHD at the LCD panel's native res of 1366 x 768, as that would make the most of the LCD.

However the Samsung will not accept any other modes, it seems.

I'm not sure that the Samsung can actually accept any signal at all at this Rez - I'll have a look through the Samsung manual later on to see what I can do.

(Note - if any one has an answer to this please let me know, by all means)

ANYWAY - onwards and upwards ---

I didn't buy the Vantage HD to run the Samsung anyway - I bought it for the JVC HD2K downstairs, so let's get on with it!

I'm going to take a complete gamble and just set the VHD to the 1080p mode and plug it in to the HD2K - cross my fingers and see if it work without a whole load of drama.

Wishfull thinking I know :-) - but lets see...

*** UPDATE ***

The Vantage HD worked perfectly and locked in to the HD2K from these settings, but, as you'll see below, I was tired and forgot to set the HD2K to 50 Hz when I initially connected it downstairs. Then I had to wait for the end of a show my girlfriend was watching when it dawned on me!


Cont...
post #50 of 1635
Great report! Keep it coming...

I hope to hear more about the frame rate conversion. The manual says "can cause slight degradation in motion performance". CAN and SLIGHT, now I like the sound of that. I just find it strange that this feature seems to be downplayed a whole lot if it is really good.

I thought frame rate converters typically was broadcast equipment and thus very expensive. Is it an algorithm from the Teranex box-of-tricks?
post #51 of 1635
RDjam:

If its not too much trouble could you take a quick look into information menu and let me know what the firmware revision is, the FPGA revision and standby micro revision # I would like to compare them with the Theatersync firmware etc.

Thanks
post #52 of 1635
Thread Starter 
I have revised the review here and above, as I finally figured out the problems I was having were related to the resolution I was feeding the Samsung and also a couple of settings in the VHD and also that something would go wrong if analog and Digital signals were fed at the same time from the same source.

So ignore most of below...

I gave the DVHS a quick whirl while the VHD was still connecting to the Samsung to make sure I knew the best ways to get the inputs working before I moved everything to the JVC.

Guess what - when I output at default resolution of 640 x 480, everything is fine, but when I move up to higher rez's the same issue recurs as when I used the HDMI from the Denon - it shows the picture great for a couple of seconds and then the screen goes blank.

( Note - this was due to two sources at once issue and I overcame it later - I believe it is something to do with HDCP acting up. On pluggin the HDMI in only, it was just fine)

Component from the DVHS deck is fine - Samsung works best with this at 1280 x 720 output from VHD to Samsung via the HDMI connector. The audio is taken from the DVHS to the VHD using TOS-Link, and comes through on the Samsung perfectly.

THIS IS GOOD - first real success with the unit. OK - so 1280 x 720 is not the best I should get from the Samsung, but it's still not bad.

The deinterlacing looks pretty good - picture quality is better than I've seen on the Samsung box yet - looks far better than putting the DVHS straight into the Samsung, so the VHD is clearly doing a better job than the scaler built into the Samsung.

I'm not going to comment much on picture quality until I have the basic problems licked and get everything pixel for pixel on the HD2K. I figure I'll do all the tuning and testing later.

OK - WHOAA!

YES - I think I've cracked the Samsung - HDMI is now working perfectly from the DVHS, with Audio and everything. Magic number is the 1280 x 720 (720p) output from the Vantage HD to the Samsung.

Lovin' it...

OK - we are truly ready for the HD2K..

Cont...
post #53 of 1635
Do the HDMI folks have no testing suite or validation process for hardware that claims to be HDMI compliant? It seems like there couldn't have been any real validation of these implementations or any reasonably full featured test suite that manufacturers could run against their implementation to insure that it is complaint. That would seem like a Compatibility 101 type requirement for such a system.
post #54 of 1635
Rdjam,

Thanks for testing the frame rate conversion. You said, "Well, in playing NTSC DVDs (source into the Vantage at 50Hz) the Vantage can output 59.94 Hz and it is dead smooth" - I assume this was just a typo, ie I assume you were referring to PAL DVDs as you had stated in the first line?

My main interest is in converting Freeview to 59.94 Hz so that I can have Freeview output on a US Sony 34XBR910 direct view HDTV that will only operate at US frame rates. (I used to live in the US until recently; I have now returned to the UK with all my US HD equipment!)

Thanks for the good work - interested to hear how everything goes with the HD2K. Of my two DVD players, one (an old JVC) unit actually output PAL DVD's as NTSC which looked fairly OK on the 34" direct view TV yet looked poor on a HD2K - native 50Hz from a Panasonic RP91 DVD player was noticeably better.

Cheers

John
post #55 of 1635
Rdjam,
Thanks for the posts, we're reading, keep it coming!
Jim
post #56 of 1635
Yeah Rdjam, keep'em comin...best thread I've read in awhile w/real live setup issues.
post #57 of 1635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 View Post

latepmas,

Are you saying that something will flag your own specific VP or all of the VPs like the one you own? For example, will it be all VP30s if I was using a HDMI repeater with a VP30, or just my VP30 (my serial number?)

Or are you saying that this pertains to some specific workaround that could be employed by any manufacturer?

Sorry I wasn't very clear myself, in a true relayer system the key for the HDCP encryption is obtained from the display via the VP, this is given to the manufacturer of the display by the HDCP licensing body and is unique to that manufacturer, this now sets the encryption value for the video data to be sent from the source via the VP to the display, this should work, ignoring any problems with timing/timing out EDID etc. Any other workaround that involves using a key originating from the switcher or VP can be made invalid and no longer work if its included in the "key Revocation List" held on the HD-DVD/blu ray disc or cable box. A unit doing this would have the key value placed on this list for attempting to circumvent the HDCP security measures.
post #58 of 1635
Rdjam, I think you'll find the HDMI issues you've seen so far aren't faults. Unless you use HDMI out of the VHD you won't be able to use HDMI in to it. This is part of the HDCP/HDMI licensing, I think any output res over VGA on the analogue has to be disabled.

And the HDMI to the display is probably the fact that pretty much all panels have very poor chance of excepting native rate on HDMI (which is why I'm waiting for 1080p panels ).

You should have better luck on the 1080p PJ so long as you use DVI/HDMI.

Sounds good so far, try watching some broadcast news with tickertape to see just how smooth the 50-60Hz convertion is.
post #59 of 1635
Rdjam

Do you have the HQV test disc to check the deinterlacing and how well the video filters work?
post #60 of 1635
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO_JCD View Post

Rdjam,

Thanks for testing the frame rate conversion. You said, "Well, in playing NTSC DVDs (source into the Vantage at 50Hz) the Vantage can output 59.94 Hz and it is dead smooth" - I assume this was just a typo, ie I assume you were referring to PAL DVDs as you had stated in the first line?

Yes - you are right - I meant a PAL DVD - I'll correct the text - thanks!

Yes, I'm not a big expert , but I have seen video material converted from NTSC to PAL and seen lots of juddering- I haven't tested that way yet, but I CAN say that the PAL to NTSC frame rate conversion looks very nice.
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