The "Official" Denon AVR-2807 Thread - Page 77

It's impossible to say what percentage of the power you're pushing. The speaker's impedance curve is different than every other speaker on the planet and will have different power demands on the amp, the channel trims will change things, Audyssey will change things, etc.

The volume goes up to +18 so you're nowhere near the top. You'll be able to drive it to those levels for as long as you like. If ventilation and heat become an issue, then the protection circuit will kick in. Ventilation is still a good idea of course for the longterm survival of the receiver.

The Denon will work fine. The question is if your cable box has an updated firmware that supports HDMI 1.1 HDCP protocols. Your cable provider would be best to answer when they last sent an update through.

It depends on a number of factors. The big ones is the sensitivity of your speakers (how many dB they produce at 1 metre for a 1 watt/2.83 amp input). Listening distance is important because volume drops with distance. Room characteristics are important. An acoustically dead room will give a lower volume level than a lively, reverberant room when everything else is the same.

Then there's the other factors soundlovr raised as well.

David Aiken

I have a 3416 from Comcast. It has firmware v. 16.35

It works just fine. It did not work, however, with firmware below that.

-steve

Of course. I have a fairly solid understanding these principles. Clearly, nowhere as good as many folks here. However, I guess I was just looking for a ballpark feeling. Is it safe to assume that the power curve is NOT linear with respect to what you "hear"? Therefore, impossible to (without measurement) determine where on the curve you are, in relation to the volume vs. power.

For guestimate sake, let's assume (given some factor of error) that the average impedance of the speakers, at any given time are between 4-6ohm. A very bold and presumptuous guess, but not all that unreasonable for a guesstimate. And, trying to err on the low side, as this would draw more current.

Would you say (guess) that at between -5db and 0db, I am around the half-way point of power output, slightly more or less. Or am I pushing the upper limits?

This may be just an exercise in pointless, mental masterbation - however, I'm just trying to determine a comfort level.

Or, should I just shut the **** up, go get the ****-ing fan, and be done with it?

-steve

David, Yea... understood. Just was trying to put a range-guess around it.

You guys are certainly giving me a refresher course in this stuff. Been a while, and I've been in "management" too long I guess I have lost a little bit

thanks - steve

Some numbers for one channel
0dB = x Watt
+18dB = 10 log (Pout / x)--> Pout = (10^1.8)* x = 63.1 * x
+5dB = 10 log (Pout / x)--> Pout = (10^0.5)* x = 3.2 * x
0dB = 10 log (Pout / x) --> Pout = (10^0) * x = 1 * x
-5dB = 10 log (Pout / x) --> Pout = (10^-0.5) * x = 0.32 * x
-10dB = 10 log (Pout / x) --> Pout = (10^-1) * x = 0.1 * x
-20dB = 10 log (Pout / x) --> Pout = (10^-2) * x = 0.01 * x

How much x is I don't know but I can make a GUESS and say for 8ohm it is about:
+18dB = 10 log (Pout / x) with Pout = 110W on 8Ohm --> x = 1.7Watt

Also keep in mind the speakers are the load so much of the extra power/heat is going to the speakers (not the receiver).

Thanks for the example calculations... plotting this out in 1db steps, it does look like the power follows the log curve. So, the real incremental increase comes further up the slope. Taking the power -> heat relationship into account, which is difficult, because as you say, much of the power is delivered to the load - and comparing that curve, it again seems like the majority of heat comes (obviously) further up the slope. Another bold assumption that the relationship remains constant. But, again for estimating - not unreasonable.

Meaning (at least for my exercise) if keep things around 0db-+5db, I am still significantly under the theoretical MAX power. Which is good news, as that is about the level I would run for any "extended" period of time (length of a film or a couple of back-to-back CD's).

Certainly I need to address the ventilation issues, since the size of the enclosure, along with the distance from the surfaces, is directly related to how much and how fast, heat can be removed from the unit.

I'll be looking into fans, and mounting this weekend, and will let you know what I figure out to be the best solution to moving some air across the top of the unit. I think I'll go back a few pages in this thread and look into one of those 80mm case fans and USB powering. That seems like a good idea. I could mount the fan above & behind the unit, and blow air across the top, and out the front opening. This would pull heat out from both the unit, along with venting the enclosure (keeping ambient temperature lower).

-steve

I need some help with the set up of my 2307 I just bought. I can't seem to get the unit to work in a 5.1 mode. I've run the Auto Set up several times, but I keep getting errors because I do not have L and R surround speakers hooked up. I only have FL, FR, Center, Rear L and Rear R. I can hear test tones in all the speakers, but I can't hear all the speakers. I can only hear the FR and FL. I'm wondering if since the auto set up keeps getting errors, due to the fact I have no L and R surrond, if that has anything to do with me not being able to hear all the speakers. I have the rear speakers hooked up into Zone2. Has anyone else set up their systems for 5.1 and if so, how did you do it? I've spent hours trying to figure this out, and I'm about fed up. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

You're kinda in the wrong thread, but we like visitors Mr. 2307

You haven't got the right concept of what 5.1 is. 5.1 means FR, FL, C, SR, and SL. You have no surrounds so you can never have 5.1 sound. Period. You've added two rear channels, which are for a 7.1 setup. To get 7.1 sound, you have to apply Dolby Pro Logic IIx processing or DTS:Neo6 to the 5.1 signal.

I'm not sure what your errors are as you didn't really say, but turn on your preferred surround mode and the rears should spring to life for you at least. It's a strange setup though... you will get much, much, much better sound if you use your rear speakers as surrounds.

(I'm assuming that you've set up the Surround Back channels to power rear speakers in the "Assigning Power Amplifiers" part of the setup.)

So I made the switch from Front to Audyssey last night. Like many of you I had always found Audyssey a bit flat at the high and low end of the spectrum but I did hear something worthwhile in the soundstage it created.

It's really not fair to flip b/t Front and Audyssey to determine which sounds better. Without boosting levels and tweaking the tone, you're comparing apples and oranges. What I accomplished last night was taking the "punch" from the Front setting and added it to the fantastic imaging of the Audyssey setting. In short here's what I did using 3.1 outtput as an example though the same logic can be applied for surround applications.

FROM
CD Stereo Front EQ Setting:
FR +2 @ 80HZ crossover & set to small
FL +2 @ 80HZ crossover & set to small
SW -6 @ 90hz crossover LFE + Main
Tone Bass 0 Treble -4

TO:
CD Stereo Audyssey EQ Setting:
FR +6 @80HZ crossover & set to small
FL +6 @80HZ crossover & set to small
SW +3 @ 120hz LFE + Main
Tone Bass +4 Treble +4

Of course everyone's listening environment and gear are different and your settings will vary.. but, for those who have shrugged off Audyssey, try it again with the tone adjusted and the speaker levels elevated till you get the same punch you had using the Front settings. For me it all came together last night. Where I once had just ice cream, a Snickers bar, a glass of milk and syrup. I discovered a wonderful blender and now have a frosty chocolate milkshake with delicious Snickers chunks. Mmmm, Snickers chunks..

Seems I'm having an experience others have had but unfortunately, I've not found a solution in the forum. I'm trying to get my Denon iPod dock to work with my 2807.

Symptoms: Getting a "Not Connect" error.

Troubleshooting to date:
- triple checked wiring
- confirmed dock getting power
- confirmed dock set to "dock control"
- cofirmed audio can be played from dock when used as straight audio source
- everything else seems to work

Any ideas? Thanks.

Well, I got the auto set up to work, but I still can't get any sound out of my rear speakers. When I choose the DTS setting on the receiver, the right side of the display shows all the speakers, but the left side only shows none. If I set it up for Auto, it shows only two, FR & FL which are the only speakers producing sound. Any suggestions?

Make sure you rear speaker wires are plugged into the "Surround" speaker posts and NOT "Surround Back"

Make sure your DVD player is outputting Dolby Digital and DTS bit streams

Make sure the DVD input on the Denon is set to AUTO

Make sure the particular DVD is outputting in either DD or DTS

I think I have a pretty good idea about what crossover does. By no means an expert, but I understand the principals and can hear the effect of different settings. However, I am still a little uncertain about some aspects, and about how different settings would interact with the LFE or LFE + Main settings.

Connection Configuration:
DefTech Studio 350's for the FRONT L & R, Pro Monitor 1000's for the SURROUNDS, Pro Center 1000 for the CENTER and a Pro Sub 1000. All speakers except the sub are connected directly to the 2807 speaker output terminals. The sub is connected to the SW pre-out.

Set-Up Configuration:
Auto Configured using Audyssey.
Fronts: SMALL, crossover @ 60Hz
Center: SMALL, crossover @ 80Hz
Surrounds: SMALL, crossover @ 80Hz
Subwoofer: YES
LFE: 60Hz
Subwoofer Mode: LFE
On the sub, I have the gain set at about the 1/2 way point of range on the potentiometer, and the "Low Pass Crossover" control set all the way up, to 120Hz (per recommendations in the sub & speaker manual)

Questions needing clarification:
1. So, If I understand things correctly, the SMALL settings for the speakers, along with subwoofer=yes, tell the AVR to send the lower ranges (below that specified in the crossover setting 60/80Hz in this case), along with LFE information - to the subwoofer. Right?

2. What then does the LFE crossover setting do? Mine is set to 60Hz.

3. What is the difference between LFE and LFE + Main? I believe that "overrides something (when set to LFE + Main) - allowing lower frequencies to go to both the Mains and the Sub, along with LFE going ONLY to the sub? If just set to LFE, then everything below the crossover (but which crossover? speaker or LFE setting?) goes to the sub, including LFE.

4. How does this interact with the crossover dial on the sub? What is the purpose of that? I thought it was the setting at which everything ABOVE was rolled off.

5. And just to complicate things a touch more... I don't really know what the difference is between SMALL and LARGE settings. I know that in LARGE, you are telling the system that your speakers are closer to full range, but you can still select subwoofer=YES (only if using LFE + Main). Whereas if set to SMALL, you can have subwoofer=yes, for either LFE or LFE + Main.

I played around with as many of these different combinations as possible last night, until I couldn't stay awake any longer It is currently set to the configuration shown above, that sounded (IMHO) the best. I know the answer is "whatever sounds best to you, are the right settings" - but, I still would like to understand some of the principals behind them.

I'd appreciate any information you would be willing to share.

Happy Cinco de Mayo

-steve

LARGE speakers are speakers with significant response below 80 Hz while SMALL speakers are those without significant response below 80 Hz. Auto setup determines whether or not your speakers are large or small based on their measured response in your room.

The difference between LFE and LFE + Main is that for LARGE speakers, LFE + Main engages bass managment and passes frequencies below the crossover frequency for any speaker to the sub instead of running the speaker full range which is what occurs with the LFE setting.

For SMALL speakers, frequencies below the crossover frequency are always passed to the Sub if there is one, so there is no difference between LFE and LFE + Main for small speakers. Since all of your speakers are set to SMALL, you can effectively forget about this choice because it does nothing in your case. It's really only a choice for people with LARGE speakers.

There's a lot of debate about crossover settings with some people saying set everything to 80 Hz (the THX recommendation), some leaving it up to Audyssey and the auto setup process, and some people tweaking things to suit their ears. I've just left it to Audyssey because I like the results I get with it. Others don't. YMMV.

David Aiken

Thanks, David.

So, then what is the setting for LFE (crossover?) in the speaker configurations settings used for? Each of the Front, Center & Surr have independent crossover settings - then there is an additional parameter called LFE at the bottom of that page.

And is there any correlation to the physical crossover knob on the subwoofer? Not exactly sure what that does (see original post text).

-steve

I had that problem, until I updated the firmware on my Nano... it was down rev and wouldn't be recognized by the 2807. I have no idea why that made a difference, and it may or may not be your problem, but run i-Tunes and "check for updates"... NOT to i-Tunes, but to your I-pod. Of course, you may have to update i-Tunes in the process.

-steve

Problem #1 is that you're only getting 2 input channels from DTS. That's close to unheard of. I'm wondering if your player is sending PCM rather than Bitstream? You're connected via coaxial or optical inputs?

Problem #2 is that you're still not getting sound out of the rear channels. When you say you chose the "DTS setting," do you mean that you've turned on DTS:Neo6 processing? Cause if you haven't, then you have to. The only way rear speakers make sound is if you turn on Neo6 or DPLIIx.

Why is it that you want rears and no surrounds? I remain quite confused over that one.

Thanks. Unfortunately (fortunately?) all software and firmware is up to date...

Like soundlovr asks, why are you using those speakers the way you are?


I suspect that you are a bit confused on how to setup a 5.1 versus a 7.1 system and are setting up a 7.1 system but without the required extra 2 speakers.You shoould be doing a 5.1 system.


Here is a good tutorial to read about this:
http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/multichannel.aspx

Hope this helps

How do you have the wiring-is it thru the tape input-it's the more common one.

Did you go to the menu in the 2807 and turned on the ipod feature?

If you've done all these things maybe unpluging it and repluging it after a couple minutes will reset everything and the wiring will be recognized.

Hope this helps.

I have a question and need confirmation from other owners as to settle this once for all-at least for myself. I've read thru this thread once when the thread was in the 60's- I don't think I can reread this thing all over again. So I'm sorry if this been asked before.

When I have the monitor out thru HDMI-I can see the onscreen display of the master volume when I'm in menu mode, also I have the ipod dock I can also see the OSD of the volume, but when I'm just watching a movie-be it the TV or DVD-the OSD master volume does not come on. The volume display is on the 2807 screen only.

Is this normal or is there an option that I didn't turn on. I would really love to see the OSD volume as I sit decently far from the TV and hell I can't see as good as I once did and love to have this feature to just sit back and relax without having to squint to find the desired volume.

I was considering this and the 2307, is the price difference worth it? i plan on using it on psb t45/55 speakers. does the 2307 and 2907 pair up well with the denon 2930 or 1930 dvd player?

Unfortunately, this is how it works. No AVR (at least that I am aware of) can "overlay" the OSD (volume, settings, etc.) on top of an HDMI output. When you select OSD Menu or SetUp Menu, those screens REPLACE the current video output, with their output. But, the volume display is configured to overlay, and that will not work with HDMI monitor output. It's a shame, because I have to strain to see the volume level on the AVR (old eyes). but, mostly, I just let my ears tell me if the volume level is where I want it.

It would work as you desire, however, if you used the Component Output to your monitor. But, that kind of defeats the whole purpose of HDMI.

One quirk, that other folks have experienced is, a slight flickering on the HDMI monitor output when adjusting the volume. To eliminate that, just go into the setup menu, and turn off the display for volume.

-steve

Hey Stevec325, thank you so much. I was wondering about this for a while and with you mentioning other AVR's you pretty much covered all my questions.

This would be a great feature though. I do it by ear also, but sometimes you want a reference since so many different materials use different recording levels.

Hopefully when it time to upgrade the 2807 this funtion will be figered out.

Thanks for the sage advice. Tried it - no luck. Thinking its about time to take the dock back...

I had the same problem. I tried using HDMI for the audio portion (PCM on my Toshiba HD A2, Bitstream wouldn't work) and my HDMI projector was in the shop, so I tried an old 480i projector. I only got 2ch until I finally hooked up my HDMI projector when it got back, and voila, I had Dolby Digital + over HDMI. Musta been something in the "handshaking"?

All,

I need a little help here with a recommendation for a colleague. He has a plasma TV that only will do 480P and above over HDMI. he wants to connect everything up via HDMI and would like to have control for 2 zones.

I recommended at Denon AVR3806 (In know this is th 2807 thread). He picked one up and could never get the OSD to appear since evidently it was outputing 480i over HDMI and his TV would not process it. The wonderful sales people at Magnolia said it would only output the OSD in 480i. Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

Can anyone recommend a receiver that will terminate HDMI Audio and Video. (not necessarily true HD and all the stuff) and can output the GUI or OSB on 480P or higher. preferably 720p.

Thanks,
Sean

They're correct. The OSD is only output at 480i via HDMI. If the TV won't accept a 480i signal via HDMI (which is quite common) then the easiest way around it is to connect up via either Component, S-Video or Composite so you can see the OSD. Just means changing Inputs on the TV.