One-and-Only PS3 as Blu-Ray Player Thread - Page 572

Not sure what the question is.

My PS3 is networked wirelessly (I have a hybrid wired/wireless home network with a cable connection to the Internet). Firmware updates on the PS3 are painless; it downloads the firmware, then restarts and installs it, then restarts and is ready to go. Takes maybe a half hour top to bottom.

Ok, Large TV tower for incoming radio WiFi signal, travels 125 feet to 2nd WiFi radio hooked with Ethernet cable to my PC then need switch or splitter to get over to PS3 with Ethernet cable. My WiFi installer seems to think this will work I was just wondering if any body else had like experience. I am approximately 8 miles away from the town that has the outgoing WiFi signal. Sorry if my explanation lacks tech savvy just understand caliber of man typing this stuff. Not brightest bulb in box. I'm still way ahead of the game as wife had to go to work to do the USB download at least now I can do that part of it at home. I just thought it would be great to hook up directly to PC.

How is the PS3 as an upconverting DVD player?

Do you know what video format is being used for BD/DVDs? If they also use RGB then everything will have the same black level. But if BD/DVDs use YCbCr and games etc. use RGB Full Range, then for sure there's a difference in black level and you would have to recalibrate your display.

You can demonstrate this easily just by sitting at the XMB screen and toggling RGB between Full and Limited --- the black level clearly changes (but it won't change for BD/DVD movies if they are outputting in YCbCr).

All you need to know and then some:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1013480&page=6

The preferred format for BD/DVD is Y Cb Cr. But in order to achieve it the TV PS3 has to be set to "automatic" or Y Cb Cr for Video Output Format. Games and the XMB are RGB.

It's possible the user in question has the PS3 set to output everything at RGB.

Brandon

It's my understanding DVDs and BDs are essentially recorded in YCbCr format while games are in RGB. For RGB, PC and computer monitors when operating in 24-bit mode (8-bits per color) use a digital value of 0 (zero) for black and 255 for white. However for video the standard (for either RGB or YCbCr) is to use a value of 16 for black and 235 for white. When playing BDs or DVDs on a HDTV that takes an RGB input that is calibrated for video the correct PS3 setting is "RGB Limited" since that conforms the 16-235 range for black to white. The "RGB Full" setting on the PS3 is intended for use on displays calibrated as a computer monitor. When playing BD or DVD in the case where the PS3 is set to RGB Full the PS3 remaps the 16-235 range into 0-255 range and this could cause some small errors in the resulting gray scale steps. So for playback of DVDs and BDs generally YCbCr should be the first choice if the HDTV display device supports it then RGB Limited would be the second choice.

Sorry, I phrased my reply as a question when in fact I was just trying to make the following statement:

If the PS3 is set to output everything as RGB then changing from RGB Full to Limited will change the black level of everything, and once the TV is set properly you won't have to change it. The OP observed that he did need to change the TV when switching between movies and games, and the only way he would see this effect is if he uses YCbCr (or Auto) for BD/DVDs and he has RGB Full enabled.

As you said the recommended format for BD/DVD is YCbCr (with Super White enabled if you want to pass BTB and WTW), and I would also recommend setting RGB to Limited since you will then have the same black level for everything and can use one brightness/contrast setting on the TV.

My only point is that I have the TV and no changing of the setting is needed as long as the TV's input is set to accept RGB Full. It's the exact same as Limited when viewing DVDs, etc. However, since games utilize RGB full, that should be desired with this TV.

Brandon

and perhaps a shorter battery life?

Kind of annoying controllers won't charge when the system is off...

I wouldn't know yet. Do you have any insight on this?

I've only had my DS3 for about 4 days. I use it when playing Gran Turismo, which Ive put in about 5 hours on so far and the controller still has 2 of 3 bars lit. It doesn't seem to be short on battery life yet.

As far as charging the controller when the PS3 is off, I just use an empty USB port nearby on the TV.

Brandon

OK, but I'm pretty sure that means you are watching DVDs in RGB with black=0 as well (i.e. with the PS3 in Auto mode your TV may request RGB, not YCbCr). That's the only way you would not see a different black level for BD/DVD movies vs. games/XMB when the PS3 is set to RGB Full.

But since we're probably confusing everyone here, do you mind listing all your relevant PS3 settings so we can clear this up and help the original poster. i.e. what are your:

• BD/DVD Settings, BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) ---Automatic, RGB, or YCbCr?
• Display Settings, RGB Full Range (HDMI) --- Limited or Full?
• Display Settings, YCbCr Super-White (HDMI) --- Off or On?

• BD/DVD Settings, BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) ---Automatic
• Display Settings, RGB Full Range (HDMI) --- Full
• Display Settings, YCbCr Super-White (HDMI) --- On

I can confirm when playing a DVD that the output format is YCbCr. All you have to do is go into the AV Settings menu and notice that the RGB Full Range option is greyed out, but SuperWhite can be changed in the movie on the fly. As long as the PS3's "Video Output Format" is set to Automatic, DVDs and BDs should be output as YCbCr. Therefore, from my experience there should be no change in black levels (comparing DVD to BD) unless the actual source material is that bad or the set is poorly calibrated. The OP is saying that BDs are fine but DVDs are crushed, which doesn't make sense to me. They should both be crushed or both be fine.

Also it should be noted that RGB Full Range should be set to limited for the majority of TVs out there. The XBR4 has an option to set RGB dynamic range specific to each video input. If it's set to "automatic" or "limited" and the PS3 is set to "Full" it will cause significant crushing of blacks and grayscale. If the PS3 is set to full, the TV must be as well.

The TV defaults to "automatic", so if the original poster has his PS3 set to "Full" for RGB Range he would be getting crushed blacks. It would only show up during DVD playback if his Video Output Format is set to RGB instead of "Automatic" or "YCbCr".

Brandon

Agreed that the original question was a bit unclear (Geronimo, do you mind restating clearly the problem you were having?). But since I started this I guess I'll continue until we all agree on the facts...

I'm 100% sure that when the PS3 uses YCbCr for BD/DVDs, black is at level 16 (it cannot be changed, even with the Super-White setting). I'm also 100% sure that black is at level 16 in RGB Limited mode (for BD/DVDs and for games/XMB) and that black is at level 0 in RGB Full.

So I still can't see how you can use the same brightness level on your TV with the settings you posted, unless your PS3 is using RGB for BD/DVDs. To be sure what format is being using you would need your TV to tell you what it's receiving (not sure if your TV can do that). "Automatic" on the PS3 doesn't necessarily mean YCbCr for BD/DVDs, it means it negotiates the best format with your TV (and since you forced your TV to RGB Full mode maybe it knows that?). And I don't think you can conclude anything from the fact the RGB Full range option is greyed out in AV settings.

Just trying to get the facts straight to help anyone who's still reading this

Hello,

I just wanted to let everyone know that you all have helped me gain a wealth of knowledge on this board. This is only my 2nd post on avsforum and after reading well over a thousand posts I bought my PS3 about 5 months ago and couldn't be happier. I got it with the 10 free movie at walmart deal around the holidays. I use mine for mostly BD's and as a music server and have only bought one game for it so far. It was probably the best tech purchase i've ever made. My setup is only 5.1 but everything on it looks and sounds phenominal. My basic setup is this...not the greatest but i'm happy with it...

PS3 80gb
Onkyo TX-SR601 (no HDMI)
Sony KDS-55A2020 HDTV
Polk Audio Center and rear surrounds
Technics Front Speakers (very, very old)
HTPC

Thanks again to all!!

Agreed.


I'm not sure how you're drawing this conclusion.


Why can't you? It's already generally accepted that the PS3 is going to send YCbCr if your Video Output Format is set to "Automatic". I don't think it is negotiating anything with your TV. The fact that the RGB option is grayed out in that circumstance is just confirmation of that. Not trying to be argumentative here, but do you have a PS3? If so, put in a DVD or BD and put the Video output on "automatic." You'll notice the Super-white setting can be toggled while the RGB full setting cannot. Then if you change video output format to "ycbcr" it's the same for the other two settings. If you change the video output settings to "RGB" then Superwhite is now grayed out and the RGB full setting cannot be toggled to "full" or "limited."

Also, I can confirm this with an SD Calibration disc as well as HQV and DVE blu-ray discs. When Automatic is selected the super-white setting is enabled and YCbCr is used by default and it passes BTB and Above White. When it's forced to RGB it will not.

Lastly, I need to clarify what I meant by forcing my TV to accept RGB full meant. All I was saying is that there is a setting for RGB Dynamic Range for each input. If the TV is receving RGB then that setting takes effect and it determines whether it will allow full or limited. But it has no bearing when receiving a YCbCr signal from the PS3. So it's not really forcing the PS3 to prioritize the RGB colorspace. It's simply telling the TV what range the RGB colorspace is in when it detects it.

Brandon

So for those of us using HDMI displays that don't offer HDMI FULL/Limited selections (I for example have a Panasonic PT-AE900U connected via HDMI) I don't know if I am using RGB or YCbCr.
1) I know the projector takes 1080p24sf listed under its YCbCr display options
2) I know that games require a 20+ brightness bump (i.e. Rainbow Six Vegas) to be playable using the RGB full setting
3) I have the PS3 set to Automatic output and Superwhite ON

....so am I correct to postulate that black crush results when the PS3 is set for FULL since the PS3 is assuming it would be set to RGB Limited on video games?

By the logic of the last few posts. I should be using RGB limited for games and switch to RGB Full for DVD/Blu-Rays? Or does RGB limited (with Superwhite on?) work for both formats so long as auto is selected in the options?

Very good in-depth info on RGB/YCbCr


http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ca...vels-xvycc-rgb

No, you should use RGB Limited and set Video Output Format to "automatic" so that it won't matter what RGB is set to when watching a BD/DVD. It will default to YCbCr when watching a BD/DVD and RGB will be irrelevant.

Brandon

Brandon:

Thanks for the quick reply. Following this logic if I purchase a set up disk (Blu-Ray) and calibrate for the BD/DVD at Limited then am I going to lose Blacker than Black or Whiter than White (for display calibration purposes)?

yeah you're right about that

he still hasn't learned yet that the high priced ecentric players are really just not worth it. but too each his own. he still swears by monster cable and considers monoprice putting a weak link between the sources....

however when i comment about the analog tier of cable he currently uses, no surround avr of any type and of all darn things a dial up modem there is nothing to be said....just silence

Well here are my PS3 settings:
* BD/DVD Settings, BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) ---Automatic
* Display Settings, RGB Full Range (HDMI) --- Full
* Display Settings, YCbCr Super-White (HDMI) --- On

Samsung 5281F settings:
HDMI Black level - Low
Color Space - Auto

*Correction: DVD blacks are fine at the same brightness setting as my Blu ray which is a calibrated default of 50.
Could you guys test that the downloaded PSN trailers and pictures are crushed in black on normal settings(IRONMAN is a great example, plenty of black), but Blu rays are perfect. My tv is calibrated using the Sony images with BTB. Heck, I even used Ratatouille's calibration menu and all is perfect with Blu ray and DVD playback and in PS3 games. I'm just crushing blacks in the trailers and pictures I uploaded into it along with PS2 games.

No you will not lose it because "limited" only refers to the RGB setting and when you watch a BD/DVD you will be using the YCbCr colorspace settings (as long as your Video Output Format setting on the PS3 is set to "Automatic" or "YPb/Cb Pr/Cr" and the Super-White setting is turned to "On").

In short this is what most folks with newer HDMI displays should be going for:

• BD/DVD Settings, BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) ---Automatic
• Display Settings, RGB Full Range (HDMI) --- Limited
• Display Settings, YCbCr Super-White (HDMI) --- On

And then calibrate your TV set from there using some type of calibration disk.

Brandon

I apologize for infusing XBR4 talk into this discussion but for whatever reason I thought you had an XBR4. What does HDMI black level refer to? You may want to look it up in the manual. I can pretty much bet that if the alternate option is "enhanced" or "expanded" that you'll want to change it. Also what are the other options in the "Color Space" setting?

Lastly, you may want to ask these questions in the Sammy 81 thread since guys over there are likely to be familiar with your issue and the proper settings.

Brandon

It is annoying...just discovered this the other night

So I still can't see how you can use the same brightness level on your TV with the settings you posted, unless your PS3 is using RGB for BD/DVDs.
Well with RGB set to Full Range and with BD/DVD using YCbCr, black would be sent to the same TV input at level 0 for games/XMB and at level 16 for movies. The only way you could keep the same settings on your TV for both would be if the TV automatically compensated for the different black level. Most TVs wouldn't, but it sounds like yours may be doing that because of the special setting it has for RGB full range. So maybe that explains why I had a hard time understanding your observations. I have a PS3 and I've been through all the settings many times to understand exactly what each one does, and in order to use just one brightness setting on my display I need to use RGB Limited if I calibrate using a DVD in YCbCr mode.


The description in the PS3 manual for Automatic is "Set to automatically select the best video output format for the TV in use." So it shouldn't choose YCbCr if your TV doesn't support it for some reason.

I think I'm happy with your explanation of your system now, but I guess we still didn't answer the original question

Try changing RGB to Limited and see if that allows you to use one brightness setting for everything.

krik is right, set RGB to limited and I think your problems will be solved.

Brandon

I recently purchased a PS3 primarily for Blu Ray movie watching...Couple of quick questions - 1) I have looked and can't seem to find this functionality - Does the PS3 allow you to "goto" specific times in a movie i.e. enter 01:30:25 to get to that spot in the movie? 2) Had a couple of odd experiences during playback - the TV went blank seemed to shut off - then turn back on again momentarily and then continue on where the movie left off - anyone else experience this and figure out what was going on? My TV is the Samsung 46" 650.

One more thing about AV settings... the importance of turning on Super-White to pass blacker-than-black and why it can be useful for more than just calibrating. I posted some screen shots here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post13682805 from a movie that was (incorrectly) authored with black at level 0 (or close to it). With Super-White Off you're missing all the shadow detail in this movie no matter how much you raise your TV's brightness.