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One-and-Only PS3 as Blu-Ray Player Thread - Page 956

post #28651 of 32084
Roger so what should I put my settings that I listed in this thread for my pioneer 5020. I listed 4 settings how would u manage these settings with the correct value for optimal settings.
post #28652 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

If I am reading what you wrote correctly, my understanding is the opposite.

In my experience, setting to RGB Full expands the 16-235 range to 0-255, cutting out BTB/WTW areas. This seems to be suitable for PC displays that show the full 0-255 range, even though video displays have black/white at 16/235.

RGB Limited shows 16-235 plus the BTB/WTW range without cutting it out. So with Brightness set properly on a video display, BTB information would still be present, and visible if you raise the brightness/black level to show it.

You are correct.

However, the last I checked, the ps3 still has a bug which causes the RGB limited setting to clip peak white and below black. It's still better than expanding with full though. With YCbCr, the entire range is displayed.

The xmb and games will be displayed with RGB regardless of the setting. With the BD/DVD setting at "auto" chances are you'll get YCbCr for BD/DVD depending on the display capability and the HDMI handshake info. If you know your display is capable of YCbCr via HDMI, then it's ok to set it to YCbCr--that way there won't be any doubt what is used for BD/DVD.

The reason you can't simply set RGB to full and use for xmb/games and BD/DVD set to YCbCr is that the calibration will be off if used on the same input i.e one for PC and the other for video. You'd need to have two calibration memories at the display (or a PC/video toggle setting) to do this correctly.

For most, it's simpler just to use RGB limited and YCbCr as they'll both be at video levels.
post #28653 of 32084
YpSo for my pioneer 5020 what do I use as settings rgb limited or full n bd video as auto rgb or ypb ect
post #28654 of 32084
Use RGB limited, YCbCr, and Superwhite ON.
post #28655 of 32084
Ok so even if I hav e a kick ass tv ect still put rgb limited not full?
post #28656 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Please understand I am NOT trying to be argumentative... even in my advanced decrepitude, I DO like to learn stuff.

I do know a small bit about fundamental frequencies... what I was "taught" a long time ago was that what gives music it's "character" is the harmonics generated above 12k. Is this not fairly accurate?

Looking at lossless vs. lossy audio codecs, I have also held an assumption of a sort that those upper level harmonics really suffer from compression. One logical conclusion is that younger person may very well be able to hear far more difference between the 2 than someone who has zero hearing above 15k (not to mention I don't know where my threshold is, all I know for sure is there's completely nothing at 15k or above).

Compression codec output is still 20Hz to 20,000kHz. If there are high-frequency sounds the codec does not find to be "masked" by other sounds, you still hear those high frequencies (well, you GET the high frequencies whether you can hear them or not).

As I said before, even if you can't hear the high frequencies, you still hear how they interact with lower frequencies (because that happens at frequencies lower than the high frequencies themselves). Find some speakers you can disconnect the tweeters from and see how little "character" of each instrument is "lost" - you still get the intonation, the subtle volume and pace differences great musicians use to bring life to music. You still hear sharp attacks vs. more gentle playing - all the things that are important to enjoying the music completely are still there. And because much of the "work" of the higher frequencies comes from combining with lower frequencies to produce "character"... you still hear much of that character even if you can't hear the highest frequencies. People enjoyed music on AM radio for decades and it had an upper frequency limit somewhere around 7000Hz. It may not have been the last word in fidelity, but good music was still good music, even coming through an old AM radio.

I suspect a lot of people think that high frequencies are one of the first things to be thrown away in compression codecs, but they just don't work that way. Compression works, as mentioned before, on ALL frequencies. But the vast majority of what we hear (and what is encoded in movie soundtracks) is between 100 or 200Hz and 2000Hz. For DD to get the 12:1 compression they have/had on DVDs, DD MUST "lose" the most information in the 100/200Hz-to-2000Hz range. There's simply not enough "sound" (or data) in the higher frequencies to achieve anywhere near 12:1 compression. And, of course, if DD did whack the highs real hard, they couldn't advertise that they were still a 20Hz-20,000Hz (output) solution. 12:1 DD compression does suck the character/life out of music (as does MP3 compression), but it happens from removing too much information at ALL frequencies without removing "all" of any frequency.

The problem I experience with younger listeners is that they MAY have a higher frequency upper limit than I do, but they often are much worse than I am at evaluating WHAT they are hearing. This is especially true if they have "grown up" on 128kbps MP3s and never attend unamplified live music concerts. Without an appreciation for the sound of live unamplified (and undistorted) voice and instruments, it's difficult (maybe impossible) to ever be able to tell good reproduced sound from worse reproduced sound. If you are a fan of electric guitar, hearing that in person is a much different experience than hearing it on a recording - even WITH the guitar amp between you and the live instrument.

In short, you need some "references" to know if what you are hearing is great or compromised. Simply hearing compressed and uncompressed versions of the same thing may not make much of an impression on a "young" listener. When I think back to what I knew about audio and the sound of live music when I was 20... YIKES! I knew NOTING. I mean I went to see The Who when I was 17 - great show, great music, incredibly terrible sound, but I had no idea at the time that the sound was terrible. In college I saw Hawkwind and Fever Tree and a number of other concerts - more abysmal sound, but great music. I just had no reference. Over time, I experienced many things that have made me a far superior listener than I was at age 20, even though I'm positive that my upper frequency hearing limit is nowhere near what it was 40 years ago.
post #28657 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy13 View Post

Ok so even if I hav e a kick ass tv ect still put rgb limited not full?

It doesn't matter how kick ass your TV is...
post #28658 of 32084
I just thought of a good analogy for how compression works on sound...

Suppose you have a choir with 24 basses, 24 tenors, 24 sopranos, 24 altos, and 24 children. The total is 120 people. You listen to this choir for half an hour and the sound in the large space is fantastic. Then you ask everyone to leave except for 10 people, 2 basses, 2 tenors, 2 sopranos, 2 altos, and 2 children. Then you listen to the choir of 10 again for another half hour. The music may be entertaining, but it is NOT the same. That's what 12:1 compression does to music and soundtracks. You have the same frequency range(s) present, but much of the "body" is filtered out.
post #28659 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I just thought of a good analogy for how compression works on sound...

Suppose you have a choir with 24 basses, 24 tenors, 24 sopranos, 24 altos, and 24 children. The total is 120 people. You listen to this choir for half an hour and the sound in the large space is fantastic. Then you ask everyone to leave except for 10 people, 2 basses, 2 tenors, 2 sopranos, 2 altos, and 2 children. Then you listen to the choir of 10 again for another half hour. The music may be entertaining, but it is NOT the same. That's what 12:1 compression does to music and soundtracks. You have the same frequency range(s) present, but much of the "body" is filtered out.

that the best explaination i've read yet. mind if i save this for future use?
post #28660 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I just thought of a good analogy for how compression works on sound...

Suppose you have a choir with 24 basses, 24 tenors, 24 sopranos, 24 altos, and 24 children. The total is 120 people. You listen to this choir for half an hour and the sound in the large space is fantastic. Then you ask everyone to leave except for 10 people, 2 basses, 2 tenors, 2 sopranos, 2 altos, and 2 children. Then you listen to the choir of 10 again for another half hour. The music may be entertaining, but it is NOT the same. That's what 12:1 compression does to music and soundtracks. You have the same frequency range(s) present, but much of the "body" is filtered out.

I certainly agree with the above, but if you can achieve the compression with no audible difference/transparency (high bitrate DD or DTS) then compression is of no consequence.
post #28661 of 32084
i know it doesnt matter but i have heard for newer tvs you should use rgb full , unless im wrong but there are conflicting reports on this matter
post #28662 of 32084
Actually on the pioneer kuro you can set it to color space 4 for it can read rgb full if this is the case do i still leave limited on the ps3
post #28663 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy13 View Post

Actually on the pioneer kuro you can set it to color space 4 for it can read rgb full if this is the case do i still leave limited on the ps3

You are hung up on the names. Limited is superior to Full RGB in most cases. The full is needed if you have a RGB input monitor that needs computer levels and can't calibrate to TV standards. Any modern HDMI display can accept video standard levels so Limited is the correct setting.

Full does a mathematical expansion of 16-235 to 0-255. It should be obvious that this is not a linear expansion and will cause color distortions.

If you follow the recommendation here of Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr or Auto, all streamed, DVD and BD video will not be using the RGB setting at all. The RGB setting will only be used for XMB (slide shows, visualizations, web browsing) and gaming. If you set it to Full, every time you did anything besides watch a DVD/Bluray/ or Video, you would have to manually change your displays setting for the new black levels.

To use FULL you have to recalibrate you HDTV or you will lose shadow detail (unless you have a rare HDTV that lets you select PC or Video standard for RGB). After the recalibration of the HDMI input you will have washed out black when that input (or calibration mode) is used for YCbCr input (BD/DVD/Streamed Video).
post #28664 of 32084
It's incorrect to use RGB full for BD/DVD. Period. Believe it or not it doesn't really matter to me.

(or see above very patient, clear and concise explanation)

For XMB/games you have a choice: 1) use RGB full and toggle back and forth b/w the RGB full setting on the Kuro for games/xmb and the YCbCr setting for BD/DVD or 2) leave the ps3 at RGB limited/YCbCr enabled/auto Superwhite on (with the Kuro on the auto setting) and allow it to switch automatically.

FYI if you leave the Kuro on the forced YCbCr setting then the xmb/games will show a green cast as they both require RGB on the ps3. You'll either need to leave the Kuro at auto or toggle back/forth.
post #28665 of 32084
Just got a PS3 primarily for Blurays and media streaming to my PT-AE4000 (totally stepped up the wow factor). I've got a component cable to connect to my TV and have a HDMI cable connected to the projector. Audio goes to my receiver through TOSLink.

The TV max display is 480i, the projector goes up to 1080p.

Everything works sweet on either display when I change the display settings on the PS3, but its a bit of a pain switching over each time.

I was wondering if there is a way to either make the PS3 display settings switch to HDMI automatically when the projectors on, but default to 480i component output otherwise?

At the moment the PS3 detects a HDMI component on startup every time (regardless of whether projector is on or not) and asks if I want to switch to HDMI output. If I use the projector/switch to HDMI I have to remember to switch back to component before I switch off else it will stay on HDMI next time I restart.

Alternatively can I assign particular display settings to a user profile? so I have a profile called TV and another called Projector, each with its own settings.

Appreciate any advice - or pointing to the correct forums.

Thanks.
post #28666 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow View Post

Just got a PS3 primarily for Blurays and media streaming to my PT-AE4000 (totally stepped up the wow factor). I've got a component cable to connect to my TV and have a HDMI cable connected to the projector. Audio goes to my receiver through TOSLink.

The TV max display is 480i, the projector goes up to 1080p.

Everything works sweet on either display when I change the display settings on the PS3, but its a bit of a pain switching over each time.

I was wondering if there is a way to either make the PS3 display settings switch to HDMI automatically when the projectors on, but default to 480i component output otherwise?

At the moment the PS3 detects a HDMI component on startup every time (regardless of whether projector is on or not) and asks if I want to switch to HDMI output. If I use the projector/switch to HDMI I have to remember to switch back to component before I switch off else it will stay on HDMI next time I restart.

Alternatively can I assign particular display settings to a user profile? so I have a profile called TV and another called Projector, each with its own settings.

Appreciate any advice - or pointing to the correct forums.

Thanks.

Seems to me you might try using s-video to the TV which will provide 480i by default. I don't believe the video will be provided simultaneously though.
post #28667 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I mean I went to see The Who when I was 17 - great show, great music, incredibly terrible sound, but I had no idea at the time that the sound was terrible. In college I saw Hawkwind and Fever Tree and a number of other concerts - more abysmal sound, but great music. I just had no reference. Over time, I experienced many things that have made me a far superior listener than I was at age 20, even though I'm positive that my upper frequency hearing limit is nowhere near what it was 40 years ago.

Reminds me of way back in the day (college, sixties)... we had booked The Flock (Jerry Goodman) and I was the guy to deal with lights & audio. Because I knew the acoustics of the hall so well, I preferred to mix it up front... I could really keep much better track of what as going on. Great music, but boy was it LOUD. Could barely hear much oif anything else. That we, we were in dress for a play that I happened to have the prime role (Cuckoo's Nest). Good thing I was on stage for 90% of the show, I "knew" ALL the dialog... so even if I couldn't HEAR it, I knew what was being said, so my cues were on the money (mostly). By opening night, hearing was back...

And boy could I tell you stories about the Who, but they have nothing to do with music or audio!
post #28668 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by big thunder View Post

that the best explaination [of audio compression] i've read yet. mind if i save this for future use?

Sure, especially if I'm credited. I wouldn't say this is EXACTLY how audio compression works, but they are relying on "perceptual" analysis, trying to remove things that "don't matter" - but of course, everything matters to some degree. Lossless codecs can compress the music data by 2:1 and still be able to restore the full resolution of the original recording - so the choir analogy won't work with that... if the choir is reduced from 120 members to 60, you've definitely lost something quite obvious. Yet a lossless codec would play the recorded sound back as the choir of 120 was present (as if there was no compression at all) even though there's only "60" worth of data in the stored recording. As compression ratios increase to 4:1. 5:1, 6:1 or 12:1, the analogy becomes a bit more descriptive of what you end up hearing.
post #28669 of 32084
I notice that rgb limited with bd video output ypb with kuro set on auto is best for movies but for games i feel i get better shadow details with kuro auto and rgb full for gaming..... now is this normal that rgb full would be better for gaming a more realistic look better shadow detail and as far as for movies 1080p 24 forced is this the best option or auto..
post #28670 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

Sure, especially if I'm credited. I wouldn't say this is EXACTLY how audio compression works, but they are relying on "perceptual" analysis, trying to remove things that "don't matter" - but of course, everything matters to some degree. Lossless codecs can compress the music data by 2:1 and still be able to restore the full resolution of the original recording - so the choir analogy won't work with that... if the choir is reduced from 120 members to 60, you've definitely lost something quite obvious. Yet a lossless codec would play the recorded sound back as the choir of 120 was present (as if there was no compression at all) even though there's only "60" worth of data in the stored recording. As compression ratios increase to 4:1. 5:1, 6:1 or 12:1, the analogy becomes a bit more descriptive of what you end up hearing.

Loosless compression is just stuffing the choir into a bus to take them to the next concert. When they debark, there are still 120 of them.

Lossy compression is throwing singers out of the bus until the remaining singers fit. When they debark, there are fewer that 120. If you're lucky, they didn't throw out all the basses.

The purpose of compression is to optimize storage space. It has nothing to do with sound quality.
post #28671 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

You are correct.

However, the last I checked, the ps3 still has a bug which causes the RGB limited setting to clip peak white and below black. It's still better than expanding with full though. With YCbCr, the entire range is displayed.

The xmb and games will be displayed with RGB regardless of the setting. With the BD/DVD setting at "auto" chances are you'll get YCbCr for BD/DVD depending on the display capability and the HDMI handshake info. If you know your display is capable of YCbCr via HDMI, then it's ok to set it to YCbCr--that way there won't be any doubt what is used for BD/DVD.

The reason you can't simply set RGB to full and use for xmb/games and BD/DVD set to YCbCr is that the calibration will be off if used on the same input i.e one for PC and the other for video. You'd need to have two calibration memories at the display (or a PC/video toggle setting) to do this correctly.

For most, it's simpler just to use RGB limited and YCbCr as they'll both be at video levels.

Not being an engineer most of the AV info I know comes from research and learning from others more experienced than I am. Obviously you can not believe everything you read on the internet. That is why AVS forum is such a great place to learn from others with the same concerns. Having a Sony 52 XBR5(LCD) and a PS3 for BR I really want all the BTB I can generate. So I'm gonna give it a try and hope to squeeze a little extra performance from the chips.

Thanks
post #28672 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Seems to me you might try using s-video to the TV which will provide 480i by default. I don't believe the video will be provided simultaneously though.

Thanks - that'd be mildly annoying since I've brought the component cable - that'll teach me to spend money without checking the net first but I'll give the composite cable a go, since that probably does a similar low qual output maybe?
post #28673 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow View Post

Thanks - that'd be mildly annoying since I've brought the component cable - that'll teach me to spend money without checking the net first but I'll give the composite cable a go, since that probably does a similar low qual output maybe?

Yes.
post #28674 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The purpose of compression is to optimize storage space. It has nothing to do with sound quality.

I suspect we all understand the purpose... we weren't discussing that. We were discussing how compression changes what you hear and how compression is applied to audio/music (wideband, not affecting highs more than any other frequency range). Once you go beyond lossless compression, you do change the sound to some degree compared to the original or lossless version of the original. You may not want to change the sound with compression, but it can't be helped.
post #28675 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I suspect we all understand the purpose... we weren't discussing that. We were discussing how compression changes what you hear and how compression is applied to audio/music (wideband, not affecting highs more than any other frequency range). Once you go beyond lossless compression, you do change the sound to some degree compared to the original or lossless version of the original. You may not want to change the sound with compression, but it can't be helped.

Yes. See the context out of which you've taken that quote.
post #28676 of 32084
My PS3 on my new 50G20 in not acting right... Every time i play a game or movie there are white pixels dancing all over the screen. My 360 is fine with games and streaming netflix. Anyone have an idea? The screen is perfect so I don't want to take a chance on returning the set.
post #28677 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat Phoenix View Post

My PS3 on my new 50G20 in not acting right... Every time i play a game or movie there are white pixels dancing all over the screen. My 360 is fine with games and streaming netflix. Anyone have an idea? The screen is perfect so I don't want to take a chance on returning the set.

How is the PS3 connected, and to what? By this I mean by HDMI cable and directly to the TV for example.

Is the cable loose at either end?
Do you have a different cable to try?
Have you ensured that the PS3 knows all the TVs input types and is set to the right one?
If the PS3 is connected via an AVR, what happens if you plug it into the TV directly?
What type of output (RGB or YY....) is the PS3 set to and what happens if you switch types? (one is best for games and the other for films).

That should get you started.

Seggers
post #28678 of 32084
I apologize if this is a dumb question. I recently made an impulse purchase of a PS3. I can already hear my Mother's voice telling me "you're just wasting your money because you'll get bored of the games in a month." However . . .

My neighbor will buy my Samsung BD 1600. I'm assuming the PS3 Blu-Ray is every bit as good as an entry level Samsung dedicated BR?
post #28679 of 32084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstone001 View Post

I apologize if this is a dumb question. I recently made an impulse purchase of a PS3. I can already hear my Mother's voice telling me "you're just wasting your money because you'll get bored of the games in a month." However . . .

My neighbor will buy my Samsung BD 1600. I'm assuming the PS3 Blu-Ray is every bit as good as an entry level Samsung dedicated BR?

You assume right. I bought my 40Gb PS3 2 years ago and have never played a game on it. I bought it as a pure BD player because my research convinced me it was the best BD player for the money one could buy. I couldn't have been happier with it. I was so pleased that I bought one for my teenage grandson several months later and he is as enthusiastic about his as I am about mine. I guess this makes me a PS3 fanboy but I got that way because of two PS3s' outstanding performance over the course of nearly two years.
post #28680 of 32084
Thank you.

At least this will ease the cost of the PS3. Games sure have come a long way since Intellivision. I don't even understand the goal of these games, other than killing everything in sight.

I'm old.
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