Netflix, Blockbuster (and others) Online/Kiosk Discussion Thread - Page 8

As I mentioned just a few posts up, these companies have access to the PO when it's not open to the public. Thus, the real issue is not when the PO is open, but when their sorters work and what their holiday schedule is (which day did they get off).

This is another example of where people put way too much in your queue. I never have more than one TV series DVD in my queue--the one I want them to send. When I receive it, I'll at some point put the next one in the queue.

Just yesterday and today they shipped three such movies to me: The new Zorro (which probably isn't popular), Elizabethtown and The Constant Gardner. Ordinarily I would have picked those up when they were released, but I've been falling behind since I took a week vacation at the beginning of the month.

When you say "order", do you mean, for example, a Season 3 disc came before a Season 2 disc, or "Season 2, disc 3" came before "Season 2, disc 2"? At one point I had 7 TV shows/seaons in my queue and I've watched 4 of them so far with no problems in shipping order. And they were all the same show, 24. I did order them correctly in my queue.

larry

Well we're all assuming to some degree here, but wouldn't it make sense that if Netflix were going to throttle customers and potentially irk them off that they would do it such that they at least turn a profit on those people. To do otherwise would be a lose/lose scenario. It's been widely speculated that Netflix throttles to keep things at ~$1.50/rental. That jives with what I've experienced and many people report. So I do imagine there are varying levels of throttling. Either you keep yourself to a rate of ~$1.50/rental or they'll do it for you.


I don't understand this point. Whether or not someone is a heavy user has nothing to do with thae fact that they may still want to see a new release. Even if that member stopped being a heavy renter, they would still probably want to see the same new releases. Also, what's the turn around time for a member who keeps the movie for 3-5 days (or more)? No matter how you slice it, the people who maill it back the next day allow more people to get it in any given time frame.


This is all irrelevant. My point was simply that shipping back on Friday or Saturday was not risky because my problem was not whether they received them and shipped me any movies on Monday, but rather whether or not they shipped any of the new releases on Monday.


I'm not sure I understand you here. Why would they ship me a disc before they received one back from me? I may have confused you a little when I said "I have regularly sent back DVDs on Fridays strategically so they would receive on Monday and ship the new release to me on Tuesday.". What I should have said was they would receive the return on Monday, ship the replacement on Monday, and I receive the new disc Tuesday.


I have tried that and received nothing. That's far riskier than shipping back on Friday/Saturday.

Letting more people use the disc per unit time is only relevant if those users have the same value (profitability) to Netflix. But they don't, and the difference in value is disproportionate to the number of times the disc can be turned around.

In the end, though, Netflix is never going to be optimized for new releases unless they negotiate special arrangements with the studios - which probably translates into a more expensive service. They try to give barely acceptable service on new releases as a lead-in to their huge catalog, which is where their competitive advantage lies. People who are primarily interested in new releases are probably going to defect to VOD services once those are more widely deployed.

I too believe I've been "throttled." They shouldn't be allowed to call themselves an "unlimited" source of movies. I don't have TV either right now, and watch shows on disc so I can skip the damn commercials.

I also like catalog titles more than some of the newer releases as good, recent movies are becoming harder and harder to find. However, new release TV shows are very hard to come by... and you'll notice it's only for the FIRST disc in the series! Hmmm... imagine that!

Dan

I don't expect to convince you, but I have to ask - what would it take, in your view, to meet a common-sense definition of "unlimited". Do they have to buy enough discs and hire enough employees to give everyone whatever they want immediately - even if those discs are unwanted after a month and the employees are only busy a couple of days per week? Is it unfair that they don't work Saturday?

I've also noticed that #1's of a series are in higher demand that later discs. That may be a case where it is worthwhile to use a B&M alternative to get the series started. Since NF buys whole sets, they don't have an easy way to match their stock with the demand.

You should email them and put in a feature request for a series lock type feature. I know greencine offers this (it would basically lock a series so they won't send you disc 2 until disc 1 ships, etc). I've been bugging them for awhile to do it.. maybe if enough people request it it will actually get done.

I'm not talking about that from Netflix's perspective, I'm talking about it from an end user's perspective. If every renter watched the movie on the day they received it and then mailed it back the next day (the pattern of so-called "heavy users"), more people would be able to view that disc in a given time frame than when people hold onto it for days at a time.


I know that was directed towards Dan Hitchman and not me, but...

I don't have a problem with Netflix or their service, but let's be honest here, them claiming the service is "unlimited" is a total farce. They should just tell the truth and call it the 3/week plan. This type of marketing is nothing singular to Netflix though and they shouldn't be crucified more than any other company that engages in similar marketing.

To me the problem is that the laws need to change on these matters. Companies shouldn't be allowed to claim things that simply aren't true and they shouldn't be allowed to claim something in huge bold print and then list exceptions in tiny obscure print. Companies benefit hugely from bold claims of things like "Unlimited Rentals" and then get away with burying in tiny print that they will limit you if you use it too much. That's simply not right.

It's unlimited in the same sense that Disneyland is. If you go on a summer afternoon you won't get as many rides as you might like, and the lines will be really long for Space Mountain.

I think Netflix suffers from a couple of factors. One, many of their customers are obsessively interested in how the service works (myself included). Second, with every customer having real-time web access to their account activity it is very easy to see behind the curtain. So while targeting the best service to the most profitable customers is standard business practice, most businesses are able to hide it a lot better. Just my 2 cents.

However, you will get in as many rides as anyone else on that given day, tourist season or off season, unlike Netflix once you're throttled. Disney rides don't have a separate line for frequent riders or those running between rides to get more in and those walking leisurely, one purposely slowed down or wound out of the way, the other flowing more freely and directly.

Disney also has a fair mechanism to expedite waiting on line, called Fastpass--where you show up in advance, get a time for later, then show up and get on the ride much more quickly. Netflix has no mechanism for special consideration like Disney does for Space Mountain, no way to secure new releases, unlike Disney NF couldn't care less and obfuscates rather than solves problems and aren't up front about what they consider heavy use or abuse--it's arbitrary, subjective and the throttling of some users is overt.

To extend the Disney parallel since you brought it up, they also have a VIP service, you can pay extra to hire a tourguide to drive you around for the day and jump right to front of every line for anything you want to go to on property. They do it so well you probably never noticed this, but it's a wonderful treat. (I've been a guest chef of Disney and this just happened to be one of the perks.) A problem with NF, however, is that paying more doesn't necessarily accord you better service, and the newest customers are treated better than those with the longest tenure. Very un-Disney-like--Disney tries to make everyone feel special, and will go to great lengths to resolve any customer service issue rapidly, and in the customer's favor.

Also, Disney has done this for a long time, they've perfected waiting--and fairly accurately predict how long the wait will be at a given point in the line--so you can decide to wait in that line or not. With NF, you never know.

I've also been throttled, both with shipping and "very long waits". My wife and I watch about 3-4 movies a week now that we're retired, but with Netflix "unknown" algorithms for priority I have no idea how to proceed. Delaying returns only infuriates me more.

The local Safeway has a kiosk with new releases for $1.49 each and most of them are always available!! No postage for them but I'm sure they pay Safeway a sizable fee to be on their aisles. That adds up to about 12 a month so it's about at Netflix's throttling limit and I can actually get new releases when I want!

I've decided to not do business with a company that has such arrogance to tell you to order unlimited amounts, and then have a secret algorithm to disallow you the choices.
In the smorgasborg example on this thread, that's like saying "all you can eat", but if you start to chow down on the meats they say "all you can eat" is only for the calliflower.

The netflix underground blogspot has some interesting ideas. I do believe netflix is violating some FTC truth in advertising rules. BTW they have had 445 Better Business Bureau complaints in the last 36 months.

I'm also cancelling March 1st.

In discussing the revised settlement in the L.A. Times 2/23/06 Netflix spokesman Swasey is quoted as saying they were shipping out 7 million DVDs a week to more than 4.2 million customers.

This means that the average Netflix customer gets a very rough estimate of 7.25 discs a months or pays about $2.50 for each DVD rented.

"David Newman, an attorney for the FTC, told Judge Thomas Mellon Jr. the agency was satisfied with the new terms."

The revised terms do not alter their current use of "unlimited" nor alter the current disclosure on the web site.

I don't know if you did this calculation or you grabbed it, but it ignores the different plans.

I wonder how many people complaining unlimited isn't unlimited had a 2 out plan, and what they thought the extra money for the larger plans would buy them?

I wondered that, too. It is roughly consistent with figures I have heard in the past, though.

As for the Safeway kiosks, you lose the convenience of home delivery and they are only cheaper if you can cut your holding time to one day for each rental. But many people do go to the grocery store almost every day, which mitigates those disadvantages. Here in Colorado, McDonald's have the Redbox kiosks which are even cheaper. The kiosk business model is optimized for new releases (that's all they carry), which makes them a better choice if that is what you want to watch most.

The Disneyland VIP service is interesting, but I think it only works because it is a very limited offering. The FastPass idea is more interesting. I'm sure that Netflix could provide a better time estimate than "Very Long Wait"; I don't like car temperature gauges either (they must know how many degrees Warm is). But I can understand why they don't want to set an expectation that some will take as a commitment.

Any changes Netflix might make to their current system, however, will create both winners and losers. What irks me is that most of the complaining comes folks who are already winners, but feel entitled to even more.

I made the calculation on the figures and ignored the other plans which is one of the reasons that I used the term "very rough estimate."

I had thought about whether I was misrepresenting the figures by ignoring the other plans and decided I wasn't.

In a conference call Netflix had some wordage which led me to believe that a high percentage of their business is on the 3 plan. This means that other plans can't impact the $2.50 figure unless they drastically differ from that average.

Netflix and Blockbuster have eliminated the volume discounts on the higher plans.

The Netflix "smoothing"(aka throttling) algorithm moves all plans closer to the average.

In the terms of use Netflix says:
"A large majority of our subscribers rent between 2-11 movies per month."
The midpoint of that is 6.5 but an average of 8 might be possible.


I am on the 8 plan and in the last 30 days I have averaged $2.40.

Ouch! That sounds like 20 movies per month over the last 30 days. Are you attempting to rent more than 20, but are getting throttled?

-T

Once again, I have nothing but movies with Short or Long Wait in my queue and none will ship. Cindella Man has been top of my list for well over a month now and has not shipped.

I am cancelling Netflix at the end of the month.

[Moderator note: I made this thread a sticky and changed the title. This thread had the most discussion from the past I decided to use it as a base. It seems to covers most of the bases. Larry]


Is it a coincidence that ever since that CNN article came out a couple weeks ago about Netflix throttling it's frequent renters, I've noticed quicker turnaround times from them? I rent on average 12-13 dvd's a month from Netflix. The intentional throttling was very apprent the past several months. Netflix would ALWAYS wait an extra day to mail out the next titles in my queue after checking in the ones I rented the previous week. But the past couple weeks, they've gone back to sending out the next dvd's in my queue the same day. Is anyone else noticing the quicker turnarounds? I hope it stays this way and is not just a temporary knee-jerk reaction from Netflix to the bad press.

Doubt it. They're going to throttle you at some point once you start to go under their predetermined price point per disc for your plan or some other broader aggregate. Try to get more than x discs per week for your x-out plan and see how long that lasts.

larry

I think a good number of people think they are getting throttled because they don't manage their queue properly. They fill it up with a bunch of movies that are older, and then wonder why they don't get the new releases.

But I really doubt Netflix will stop throttling heavy users. There's no reason to at this point.

At most I ask for 1 new release a week (4-out plan) and usually get it the week of release. But they have been making sure I don't get a chance to get more then 4 DVDs shipped per week. Usually 2 DVDs are not shipped until Thursday or Friday even if they get them on Tuesday or Wednesday.

larry

I'm still being throttled by Netflix. I send DVDs on Sunday (meaning early Monday) and they don't report them as received until Wednesday. I'm < 100 miles from their Anaheim facility. They used to report discs as received the same day I sent them sometimes.

Mark

I'm still being throttled even though I keep the movies at least 4 days. I get new releases on Tues. send them back on Sat. Come Monday; they send out 2 and the 3rd on Wednesday even though I return them all on Saturday. The only time I get them all at the same time is when I go out of town for a week or so once a month. I think it's also the fact that I only get new releases every week. I never have old DVDs in my queue.

Recently I mailed 4 movies on Saturday before the President's Day holiday on Monday. Netflix reported them received and new ones shipped, including a new release, on Monday. All four movies in my mailbox on Tuesday.

So their behavior is not predictable. Some see throttling, I see exceptional service over a holiday weekend. None of us fully understand why either of these happen.

Netflix behavior is a lot more predictable than that of the USPS. And that's not to slam the USPS, but I think they are a major source of variability, and that postal service to and from Netflix is a lot more consistent for some subscribers than others.

Yup... I had a disc get lost in the mail when I was in only my second week of membership.
The cust. service rep sent another disc out and I had it the next day. He flat out told me that some area's don't see the turn around time that others do. He said that is why they have the trial. He said this way you can determine if you are not satisfied with the service, you can cancel and go back to your old method of renting.

Craig

Yes, throttling is alive and well. Netflix is relegated to the few discs I can't rent locally, mostly HBO stuff. What they are doing now is sitting on the returns for up to 3 days before they're checked back in. My last month was the "1 out" plan and I had to report two discs as missing before they checked them in. But magically after I cancelled, the last disc got back to them in one day.

I've got my own "throttling plan" for Netflix. I've throttled the money I give them down to zero...

b2b

I think one thing that really irritates people is that the love affair they kindle when you first join by sending you everything you want and almost as fast as you want it leads to problems later when they try to whip you into submission with throttling. If they would say upfront more or less exactly what to expect given your plan and the current throttling algorithm, then people probably wouldn't get so mad. Except for the unsolveable problem of everybody getting the new release they want, getting discs delivered to your house for less than 1/2 rental prices is a pretty good deal.

larry