or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › Black Flame vs. Neutral Gray Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Black Flame vs. Neutral Gray Discussion - Page 2  

post #31 of 225
movie

You made need to use a few colors to correct the color to a neutral grey, but that is what we are saying. The colors serve no other purpose than that. Even at the molecular level ;)
post #32 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mission313
I agree for the most part, but when you take the metalics out of the mix and let them do their job it is a whole different story.

I think the real question is the BF a grey or silver screen....... Really that is what makes a difference. Is there enough metalics to overpower the other elements in the mix. For what I am reading here the answer is no?
missio, it is gray and not silver. As you said not enough metallics in it.
post #33 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
biglyle,
wouldn't you need to add a little more yellow and red pigment than the SilverScreen formula because of the blue tint from the silver metalic, pearl, and UPW? maybe we could find another off the shelf paint that has the right amounts of color balancing components to work with the blue tinted components.
The pearl naturally has a yellow/red push. I call it colorwarming technology....lol
post #34 of 225
I have a Z3 and painted a 92inch MDF screen with a modified version of CG. I could not find any Auto Air aluminum in the Chicagoland area so I used Folk Art Aluminum Metallic instead. I kept the same ratios called for in the CG formula. I am in ambient light about 20% of the time (for sports) and the rest of the time I am in total light control (movies). At first I was very happy with the screen but I did have significant roller marks that started to bug me (in bright scenes)as time went on. Another thing I noticed was after a few weeks the vividness I had in the beginning began to wane. About halfway through the Olympics I started to notice a slight fading of colors. I really noticed it this past weekend when HD broadcasts just didn't have that "pop" to them. I watched the Dvd of Flightplan and it was very dull looking. My question (i actually have a few) is, can these paint formulas fade over time? I haven't seen a discussion on this possibility in any thread so far and was just wondering how many of you all can honestly say your screen is as bright and vivid a few months or even years later than when first painted. My other question is if anyone has any suggestions on what I should use to repaint this screen. Should I leave the modified CG as the base and paint over it with RS-MAXX, BF or one of the other new formulas or just start from scratch and repaint with a new base. This time I will be spraying I think. I can take pics of the finished screen to share as well if any are interested. Thanks in advance.
post #35 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fgd57
I have a Z3 and painted a 92inch MDF screen with a modified version of CG. I could not find any Auto Air aluminum in the Chicagoland area so I used Folk Art Aluminum Metallic instead. I kept the same ratios called for in the CG formula. I am in ambient light about 20% of the time (for sports) and the rest of the time I am in total light control (movies). At first I was very happy with the screen but I did have significant roller marks that started to bug me (in bright scenes)as time went on. Another thing I noticed was after a few weeks the vividness I had in the beginning began to wane. About halfway through the Olympics I started to notice a slight fading of colors. I really noticed it this past weekend when HD broadcasts just didn't have that "pop" to them. I watched the Dvd of Flightplan and it was very dull looking. My question (i actually have a few) is, can these paint formulas fade over time? I haven't seen a discussion on this possibility in any thread so far and was just wondering how many of you all can honestly say your screen is as bright and vivid a few months or even years later than when first painted. My other question is if anyone has any suggestions on what I should use to repaint this screen. Should I leave the modified CG as the base and paint over it with RS-MAXX, BF or one of the other new formulas or just start from scratch and repaint with a new base. This time I will be spraying I think. I can take pics of the finished screen to share as well if any are interested. Thanks in advance.
fgd57,
can you eliminate the possibility that the bulb in your projector is becoming dimmer with time?
post #36 of 225
The Z3 is brand new with less than 100 hours on the bulb. The filters are clean as is the lens. Thanks.
post #37 of 225
fgd57 I'm not sure about the z3 but with the old x1 the first 25 hours are extremely bright and then it falls off quickly over the next 50 and then begins a very slow decline for the next couple thousand.
post #38 of 225
@fdg57

Well, I'm glad you like the CG screen. It's too bad you are experiencing fade.

My CG Plus screen has not faded, after 4 months, and I have the blinds in the room up almost every day when I am at work. The Auto Air paints are automotive paints and as such have been designed to be in the sun. Therefore, they should not fade. The Folk Art stuff may very well fade. I never really used them much.

If you are going to spray, I would strongly suggest the Auto Air paints. Man, I sound like a rep for Auto Air, don't I? They go on really nicely. Can you order on line somewhere??
post #39 of 225
You may be experiencing the paint curing. It can take up to 4-6 weeks to fully cure depending on the environment. My 313HC screen is just now fully cured. It took almost 4 weeks. Usually the picture improves with the cure.

Maybe try recalibrating your projector. I did do that after 2 or so weeks.

313
post #40 of 225
Fgd57,
Bulbs usually take a good kick in the rear in the first 0-50 hours, one of the reasons you should hold off on pro calibration until a 100 or so hours. This could very well be part of your "dulling" problem.
post #41 of 225
Thread Starter 
i put together a quick spreadsheet to calculate the percentages of components in black flame and then used that to come up with a mix to remove the color components that are used. i am just wanting people to comment. here's the mix:

Component...................Percentage.......For 11 oz batch
Delta Pearl.......................27.27%.................3 oz
Delta Silver.......................27.27%.................3 oz
Neutral Gray.....................15.91%...............1.75 oz
Minwax Polycrylic..............20.45%...............2.25 oz
Water...............................9.09%.................1 oz


the pearl and silver are a little higher in percentage because they replace the metalic colors used in BF. neutral gray replaces UPW and provides the color balance. the choice of neutral gray shouldn't matter and can be changed to suit your screen size/projector setup. i think this mix would be best painted over a very light neutral gray latex like behr quietude or glidden snowfield (both at home depot). i think it's best to maintain neutrality in the basecoat also. this kind of brings me to another idea also. you could buy the lightest gray and then also buy the darkest gray from the same paint family. the light gray would be used for the undercoat and then also used to mix with the dark gray to make any shade of gray in between for inclusion in the above topcoat mix. well, that's just some thoughts. what do you guys think? will the topcoat mix give a final mix that is neutral gray?
post #42 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
what do you guys think? will the topcoat mix give a final mix that is neutral gray?
The base coat not only affects the colors seen but also the brightness. So, a gray or darker base coat would be better suited for high lumen projectors. And a white base coat would brighten the screen and would be better suited for lower lumen projectors. The thickness of the top coat(s) affect the effect of the base coat. Rolling paint tends to make for a thicker coat than spraying. I've seen good results rolling only 1 top coat. Rolling more coats risks offsetting the effect of the base coat. Thus, I don't think it's a good idea to standardize the base coat or substrate for use with all projectors.

Adjusting the gray in the top coat can be done as you've suggested, but you did not address how to offset the blue push of the silver metallic. The gray will help mask and somewhat offset the blue push. However, the less gray used, the more the blue push will be apparent.
post #43 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
The base coat not only affects the colors seen but also the brightness. So, a gray or darker base coat would be better suited for high lumen projectors. And a white base coat would brighten the screen and would be better suited for lower lumen projectors. The thickness of the top coat(s) affect the effect of the base coat. Rolling paint tends to make for a thicker coat than spraying. I've seen good results rolling only 1 top coat. Rolling more coats risks offsetting the effect of the base coat. Thus, I don't think it's a good idea to standardize the base coat or substrate for use with all projectors.

i see your point here. changing the basecoat just offers another level of adjustability...which is a good thing.

Adjusting the gray in the top coat can be done as you've suggested, but you did not address how to offset the blue push of the silver metallic. The gray will help mask and somewhat offset the blue push. However, the less gray used, the more the blue push will be apparent.

i thought someone had mentioned that the pearl has a slight red-yellow push. is that not enough to balance the blue push of the silver? i saw that pb_maxxx is using a gold metallic in the base of BF now. is that just balancing the silver's blue push?
Thanks for the comments 1Time.
post #44 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
i thought someone had mentioned that the pearl has a slight red-yellow push. is that not enough to balance the blue push of the silver? i saw that pb_maxxx is using a gold metallic in the base of BF now. is that just balancing the silver's blue push?
I'm sure pb_maxxx and/or MississippiMan are trying their best to offset the blue push, which in part explains their changing use of colors in their mixes.

However, I find it completely untrue that any shade between a yellow to orange to red or brown will offset this blue push. They simply don't know what colors or single ingredient to use to get the job done and are fumbling around trying to find it.
post #45 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
I'm sure pb_maxxx and/or MississippiMan are trying their best to offset the blue push, which in part explains their changing use of colors in their mixes.

However, I find it completely untrue that any shade between a yellow to orange to red or brown will offset this blue push. They simply don't know what colors or single ingredient to use to get the job done and are fumbling around trying to find it.
what if we adjust the ratio of pearl to silver to get a color balance that is "close enough" to be comfortable with? does anyone have any thoughts on balancing the blue tint of metalic silver?
post #46 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
what if we adjust the ratio of pearl to silver to get a color balance that is "close enough" to be comfortable with? does anyone have any thoughts on balancing the blue tint of metalic silver?
I'm sure pb_maxxx and/or MMan have tried that. If you decrease the ratio of silver metallic to pearl, you get less blue push. However, if I were designing a mix, I would rather eliminate the pearl all together and just offset the blue push of the silver metallic.

I know the single ingredient that offsets this blue push and I'm really at a loss to explain how no one else has determined it yet. But what gets me most is pb_maxxx and MMan haven't yet figured out what it is, but claim to have offset this blue push with a continuously changing mix of colors.
post #47 of 225
How 'bout PY129? :)
post #48 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
How 'bout PY129? :)
Ah.... no.

-----------------------

Edit:

I'm sorry, prof55. I must be watching too much Beavis and Butthead.
post #49 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
I'm sure pb_maxxx and/or MMan have tried that. If you decrease the ratio of silver metallic to pearl, you get less blue push. However, if I were designing a mix, I would rather eliminate the pearl all together and just offset the blue push of the silver metallic.

I know the single ingredient that offsets this blue push and I'm really at a loss to explain how no one else has determined it yet. But what gets me most is pb_maxxx and MMan haven't yet figured out what it is, but claim to have offset this blue push with a continuously changing mix of colors.
so, if yellow and red are used to make most neutral gray latex paints, what else could it be? 1Time, go ahead and claim the glory, reveal the ingrediant please. could it be a single orange pigment such as PO62, or something like PY3?
post #50 of 225
And if only I were motivated by fame or glory...

< watching the Oscars >

Edit:

No, I'd like to see someone come up with it on their own. Until then it will be worth the wait (to me) to see how many more times pb_maxxx and/or MMan change the colors of their mixes while claiming it offsets the blue push.
post #51 of 225
movielvr2006

When your electron microscope comes in and you check out what's going on at the "molecular level " let us know ok :)

Poor MM thought what the hell can I say to get these pesky pricks off my back and he makes up something that he knows no one here can prove or disprove by claiming his mix is so advanced that he has changed the molecular structure of his paints and pigments :)
Topping this off MM has a confirmation from movielvr2006 , which means there is no fame or glory left for 1 time !! UNLESS 1 time has a formula that goes even deeper and works at the atomic level :)


MM quote
Quote:
Everything happens at the molecular level. How can the few of you fail to see that colors do in fact retain their specific and individual attributes. It all does not become a "Goo" of some wierd combination. There is specific individual factor that do come into play.


Bruce
post #52 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
And if only I were motivated by fame or glory...
well, since you are here discussing these issues on a DIY thread, then perhaps your only motivation is to help others (and learn from others) when it comes to projections screens. i hope that's all it is since we don't need any talk of another secret ingrediant or secret mix. if your motivation is just to cause problems with black flame supporters then please start a different thread. if you intend to keep your ingrediant to yourself then you shouldn't have mentioned it here. please, this thread needs to be kept very open when it comes to the discussion of screen paints. sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but i came here looking for answers and hopefully a chance to contribute, not mystery.
post #53 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
this thread needs to be kept very open when it comes to the discussion of screen paints. sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but i came here looking for answers and hopefully a chance to contribute, not mystery.

OK let's be serious for a sec ok .

Are you going to buy your microscope or just borrow pb's and MM's ?

Movie
I think if they have developed a mix that is working down to the molecular level they should provide pics from their slides to show us what is going on differently before and after the "fusion " right ?

Bruce
post #54 of 225
I almost had to come back at MMan's reference to the "molecular level" myself, but I knew someone else would jump on it.

Yes, I want screenshots showing how it works at the molecular level too!
post #55 of 225
double post
post #56 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
Topping this off MM has a confirmation from movielvr2006 , which means there is no fame or glory left for 1 time !! UNLESS 1 time has a formula that goes even deeper and works at the atomic level :)
LOL... now this is what motivates me. I'm just here to have fun and this is fun.

Someone give me a reason why I now should not state this one ingredient. Hint: it's not peanut butter.
post #57 of 225
I'm here for at least a semi-serious conversation, too. If I wanted drama I'd read that other groups' posts. :(

Ok, I propose we use 3/4lb of finely ground jimbra (or equivalent)...
post #58 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
Ok, I propose we use 3/4lb of finely ground jimbra (or equivalent)...
No, that's not it either.
post #59 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
OK let's be serious for a sec ok .

Are you going to buy your microscope or just borrow pb's and MM's ?

Movie
I think if they have developed a mix that is working down to the molecular level they should provide pics from their slides to show us what is going on differently before and after the "fusion " right ?

Bruce
bruce,
let me explain my position...and it is only my own opinion. whether it agrees with mm and pbmaxxx does not mean i am taking any side one way or another. so, from a technical point of view, the individual pigments that are used in any paint are solids. that is the definition of a pigment. the solids do not dissolve and retain the same properties that they have when not mixed into a liquid base such as latex or acrylic. now, if any dye based paints are being used, then the story is different since dyes are already liquid. i believe that the different metalic pigments being used (silver, pearl, gold, copper, etc.) are all slightly different mica pigment paints. solid particles of mica. when it comes to light, all things work at the molecular level whether it be paint, metal, wood, or that apple you're eating. red pigment reflects red because at the molecular level, red light is at just the right wavelength that it reflects off the molecular structure, and other wavelengths are absorbed. now, when it comes to black flame, i don't think that their specific mix does anything different than any other color balanced gray metalic paint. it's nothing more than a balance act, the same balancing act that behr does with silverscreen. now, when it comes to metalics, i agree that their affect is to give some degree of gain which must decrease viewing cone when no latex or poly is present. when the latex and poly are present however, the gain is either completely negated or dimished to a point that it's hard to detect. if that affect is completely negated, then the use of the metalics makes no sense because you can get the same thing from using a titanium dioxide based paint. i agree that if mississippiman is going to put forward statements about the paint working at the molecular level, then he should be able to explain how it works to us. that request so far goes ignored. i in particular have concerns about whether black flame reduces view cone, and whether or not it can truly reflect more projected light than ambient light. think of it like this. assume you have a gray paint that reflects 50% of the light that hits it. it reflects 50% of all the projected light that hits it and 50% of all the ambient light that hits it. this is exactly what a neutral gray screen should do. how is black flame any different? that is the main question i have. that is why i have asked for scientific proof. i don't want to bash anyone, just want to find the answers. the fact that mississippiman hasn't responded to the request, does not help me gain any respect for him or his mix. supposedly, the mix is protected by a patent application so technical discussion of the mix should be flowing freely. since that is not happening, it gives me the impression that mississippiman doesn't completely understand how his mix works. i hope he can disprove me so we can all benefit from a reasonable/logical explanation.
post #60 of 225
movielvr2006,

Tell you what, I will post this one ingredient if you break up your last post into paragraphs.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Screen Section
This thread is locked  
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Screens › DIY Screen Section › Black Flame vs. Neutral Gray Discussion