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Black Flame vs. Neutral Gray Discussion - Page 3  

post #61 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1time
No, that's not it either.
That's too bad, cause it's plentiful here. Perhaps you could reveal it in less than nine stages. ;)
post #62 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
That's too bad, cause it's plentiful here. Perhaps you could reveal it in less than nine stages. ;)
But the suspense is part of the fun.
post #63 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
LOL... now this is what motivates me. I'm just here to have fun and this is fun.

Someone give me a reason why I now should not state this one ingredient. Hint: it's not peanut butter.
1Time,
sorry, but i'm a little edgy today. anyways, yes, this should also be fun. now about the ingrediant, i hope it's something real...from a serious point of view...but from fun point of view, i know it's not LSD either since that would cause a lot of color shifting especially after licking the screen. :eek: :)
post #64 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
1Time,
sorry, but i'm a little edgy today. anyways, yes, this should also be fun. now about the ingrediant, i hope it's something real...from a serious point of view...but from fun point of view, i know it's not LSD either since that would cause a lot of color shifting especially after licking the screen. :eek: :)
It is real and readily available. I assure you. Where are my paragraphs?
post #65 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1time
But the suspense is part of the fun.
This from a long-time "serious" member. I thought this thread was to eliminate the egotism, and actually discuss concepts.

How sad.
post #66 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
This from a long-time "serious" member. I thought this thread was to eliminate the egotism, and actually discuss concepts.

How sad.
It's paint, it's fun, it's serious, but it doesn't have to be sad.
post #67 of 225
Movie I THINK YOU NEED TO BUY A SCREEN :)

Then when you are reading a book on physics in full ambient light you will get a better understanding of how light and reflectance at the molecular level work . Then you can come back and post some theories ok . :)

Bruce


ps

Movie I AM JUST TEASING .
Most things in life interact at the molecular level that is a neutral statement .


If you were wanting to reflect or refract light off a molecule then I would keep the light path between the molecule and your eyes clear .So either make clear paths or arrange them in an alternating pattern :)

MY wife right now is in fourth year Psychology and has been taking a perception class that I have found to be very interesting to read and learn from the side lines .
post #68 of 225
Prof maybe YOU should drop the ego ,and your self proclaimed prof designation . I think that your tests did as much to prove mm's theory as dispell it if you want some seriousness .

Proff what specific concepts are you wanting to discuss ?
Bruce
post #69 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
movielvr2006,

Tell you what, I will post this one ingredient if you break up your last post into paragraphs.
hey 1time,
sorry about that, i just get going sometimes and let the grammatical structure fall to the side. that and i thought it would be FUN for you to read it like that :) . ok, ok, here it is again, a litle easier to read now.

bruce,
let me explain my position...and it is only my own opinion. whether it agrees with mm and pbmaxxx does not mean i am taking any side one way or another.

so, from a technical point of view, the individual pigments that are used in any paint are solids. that is the definition of a pigment. the solids do not dissolve and retain the same properties that they have when not mixed into a liquid base such as latex or acrylic. now, if any dye based paints are being used, then the story is different since dyes are already liquid. i believe that the different metalic pigments being used (silver, pearl, gold, copper, etc.) are all slightly different mica pigment paints. solid particles of mica.

when it comes to light, all things work at the molecular level whether it be paint, metal, wood, or that apple you're eating. red pigment reflects red because at the molecular level, red light is at just the right wavelength that it reflects off the molecular structure, and other wavelengths are absorbed.

now, when it comes to black flame, i don't think that their specific mix does anything different than any other color balanced gray metalic paint. it's nothing more than a balance act, the same balancing act that behr does with silverscreen.

now, when it comes to metalics, i agree that their affect is to give some degree of gain which must decrease viewing cone when no latex or poly is present. when the latex and poly are present however, the gain is either completely negated or dimished to a point that it's hard to detect. if that affect is completely negated, then the use of the metalics makes no sense because you can get the same thing from using a titanium dioxide based paint.

i agree that if mississippiman is going to put forward statements about the paint working at the molecular level, then he should be able to explain how it works to us. that request so far goes ignored. i in particular have concerns about whether black flame reduces view cone, and whether or not it can truly reflect more projected light than ambient light. think of it like this. assume you have a gray paint that reflects 50% of the light that hits it. it reflects 50% of all the projected light that hits it and 50% of all the ambient light that hits it. this is exactly what a neutral gray screen should do. how is black flame any different? that is the main question i have. that is why i have asked for scientific proof.

i don't want to bash anyone, just want to find the answers. the fact that mississippiman hasn't responded to the request, does not help me gain any respect for him or his mix. supposedly, the mix is protected by a patent application so technical discussion of the mix should be flowing freely. since that is not happening, it gives me the impression that mississippiman doesn't completely understand how his mix works. i hope he can disprove me so we can all benefit from a reasonable/logical explanation.
post #70 of 225
LOL, oh and the green text really sets it off too. Thanks

It's raw umber.
post #71 of 225
Hey Movie don't let 1 time push you around like that!!
Tell him to shove the english lesson and get serious here :). We are trying to invent a new mouse trap here without knowing how or why all the other mouse traps don't work!! This is a pretty serious undertaking so let's figure this out together.

Ps

I propose we do not alienate pb and mm !! With their molecular knowledge and equipment they can be a real asset to the professor in his knowledge quest .

Bruce


PSS
1time you held out that long just hiding the raw umber ingredient :)
post #72 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
Ps

I propose we do not alienate pb and mm !! With their molecular knowledge and equipment they can be a real asset to the professor in his knowledge quest .

Bruce
Oh man... LOL. Bruce, you never let down... LOL. This has been the best Oscars yet.
post #73 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
Hey Movie don't let 1 time push you around like that!!
Ttell him to shove the english lesson and get serious here . We are trying to invent a new mouse trap here without knowing how or why all the other mouse traps don't work!! This is a pretty serious undertaking so let's figure this out together.

Ps

I propose we do not alienate pb and mm !! With their molecular knowledge and equipment they can be a real asset to the professor in his knowledge quest .

Bruce
well, it was more like a bump anyways and i was pretty annoyed myself when i re-read my own post. i agree that we shouldn't alienate anyone here. we are here to learn and discuss. i'll respectfully request everyone to comment on what i've posted here. please let me know if something doesn't make sense or isn't resonable.

raw umber...yeah i guess that is a simple solution. so, 1time, any suggestions on how to implement it?
post #74 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
raw umber...yeah i guess that is a simple solution. so, 1time, any suggestions on how to implement it?
I'm not really in a serious mood right now so uh... I guess just mix some in.
post #75 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
I'm not really in a serious mood right now so uh... I guess just mix some in.
ok, that was obvious. :) ...now please be serious this time. how much do you think needs to be mixed with the silver metalic to balance the blue push?
post #76 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
ok, that was obvious. :) ...now please be serious this time. how much do you think needs to be mixed with the silver metalic to balance the blue push?
Now mind you I have been laughing for quite a while now and am still watching the Oscars on my day off from work. So um, this probably is about as as serious as I'm going to get tonight.

I recall using raw umber that I bought in a 2 ounce bottle from Michael's or Wal-Mart and just squirted some into various mixes I was testing. I just assumed there was no way of telling how much to use so I guessed.

I got the idea of using raw umber from the formulas for Bombadil Gray and SilverScreen. I then confirmed my hypothosis with some Google searches and using it in some test mixes.

And now it is up to someone other than me to improve upon, dismiss or disprove my finding. That is all and goodnight.
post #77 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
Now mind you I have been laughing for quite a while now and am still watching the Oscars on my day off from work. So um, this probably is about as as serious as I'm going to get tonight.

I recall using raw umber that I bought in a 2 ounce bottle from Michael's or Wal-Mart and just squirted some into various mixes I was testing. I just assumed there was no way of telling how much to use so I guessed.

I got the idea of using raw umber from the formulas for Bombadil Gray and SilverScreen. I then confirmed my hypothosis with some Google searches and using it in some test mixes.

And now it is up to someone other than me to improve upon, dismiss or disprove my finding. That is all and goodnight.
1time,
thanks for that. i guess we can just use Bombadil Gray as a starting point to mix the raw umber with the silver metalic then. once we know the proper amount then we should be able to walk into home depot and ask them to make us a batch of whatever neutral gray we like, then add the required amount of raw umber on top of that formula.
post #78 of 225
Raw umber (9.5YR) is a standard ingredient in most neutral grays, and in excess will tend to cancel green as well as blue. I'd try cadmium yellow light (6.5Y) for a single pigment blue cure.
post #79 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
Raw umber (9.5YR) is a standard ingredient in most neutral grays, and in excess will tend to cancel green as well as blue. I'd try cadmium yellow light (6.5Y) for a single pigment blue cure.
i did some searching around and found this cool website:

Pigment Database

it has spectral curves for a lot of common pigments...even some pearlescent pigments.

anyways, here's my question: wouldn't cadmium yellow light make the mix look a little green?

i am also intrigued by the pearlescent copper. it has a similar curve to that of raw umber.
post #80 of 225
Ok here is my take after some pretty extensive testing over the last 2 years.

This is really just summing up what everyone, myself included, is stating.

1. The grey color is working to absorb light from all directions.

2. The medium diffueses the light depending on its tranlucency.

3. The Mica in the the metalics reflect a percentage of the light back at the viewier and also refracts light in all directions, a higher percentage is reflected back at the viewer.

4. If the "shade" of the base and or mix absorbs more light than is being refracted all around you get what seems to be a screen that performs well in ambient light, but no where would I state that it is rejecting light.

5. If the balance of mica particles mutes the mica you will get no improved gain but a wide viewing cone and you will also lose briteness however you will get minor improvements with whites and color saturation.

6. If the balance of mica in the mix is heavy you will get much improved whites and color saturation however you will reduce viewing cone in propoertion to the levels of mica in the mix. There are some added bonuses due to the angular reflective nature of the mix resulting in a wider than expected viewing cone. However as the amount of reflectivity increases back at the viewer as the intensity within the view cone also does in direct proportion. That is is just physics.

With my current screen this is what I did. I tried to find the happy place between gain,viewing cone, white balance, and color saturation. All while maintaining a medium grey base to absorb the ambient light. To the plain eye it looks like a dark silver screen but shine a light at it and holy what a difference. I could not achieve greater than the reference BO cloth gain without severe negative compromises. So that is where I am at. I would like to have about another .5 gain but I don't think I can live with the decreased viewing cone and or the increased sparklies from the higher concentration of mica flakes.

7. Adding colors to the mix can help to reduce any unwanted color pushes, but many times this can also be acheived with some minor calibration of the projector. So is all the extra hassle worth it and how much value does it add? I dunno....I haven't tried past my initial testing with RGB paints over a year ago.

The bottom line is that the metalics to help, but it is all about balance.

313
post #81 of 225
Many metalics do not use mica at all .
Mica is used in some of the pearlescent paints, but not in the aluminum paints or other metalics .
There are solutions out there where the grind of the pigments or solids are fine enough that sparklies will be reduced or not visible from the seating position.

Also the difference between angular and retro reflectance has as much to do with texture or particle shape of the reflectants as whether it is grey or white .

Bruce
post #82 of 225
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mission313
Ok here is my take after some pretty extensive testing over the last 2 years.

This is really just summing up what everyone, myself included, is stating.

1. The grey color is working to absorb light from all directions.

2. The medium diffueses the light depending on its tranlucency.

3. The Mica in the the metalics reflect a percentage of the light back at the viewier and also refracts light in all directions, a higher percentage is reflected back at the viewer.

4. If the "shade" of the base and or mix absorbs more light than is being refracted all around you get what seems to be a screen that performs well in ambient light, but no where would I state that it is rejecting light.

5. If the balance of mica particles mutes the mica you will get no improved gain but a wide viewing cone and you will also lose briteness however you will get minor improvements with whites and color saturation.

6. If the balance of mica in the mix is heavy you will get much improved whites and color saturation however you will reduce viewing cone in propoertion to the levels of mica in the mix. There are some added bonuses due to the angular reflective nature of the mix resulting in a wider than expected viewing cone. However as the amount of reflectivity increases back at the viewer as the intensity within the view cone also does in direct proportion. That is is just physics.

With my current screen this is what I did. I tried to find the happy place between gain,viewing cone, white balance, and color saturation. All while maintaining a medium grey base to absorb the ambient light. To the plain eye it looks like a dark silver screen but shine a light at it and holy what a difference. I could not achieve greater than the reference BO cloth gain without severe negative compromises. So that is where I am at. I would like to have about another .5 gain but I don't think I can live with the decreased viewing cone and or the increased sparklies from the higher concentration of mica flakes.

7. Adding colors to the mix can help to reduce any unwanted color pushes, but many times this can also be acheived with some minor calibration of the projector. So is all the extra hassle worth it and how much value does it add? I dunno....I haven't tried past my initial testing with RGB paints over a year ago.

The bottom line is that the metalics to help, but it is all about balance.

313
mission313,
thanks for your input. i have a question for you on your 3rd point. isn't the viewing position/screen position/projector position also a very important thing when it comes to getting a majority of the light back to the viewer? i can see where the gain might not make much sense for someone who has a table mounted projector setup. a ceiling mounted projector with long throw is probably the best case but what about those who don't have that capability?
post #83 of 225
Can I answer your question movie ?

Mission might be busy :) your question is more dependet on screen type retro or angular.


Here is a little reading to get you guys set straight first what mica is and does

this store also has a good supply of gels paints etc .

http://www.currys.com/knowledge/gold_sp_tech.html



Here is a snippet from there recognize this theory ?
# With Interference Mediums it's helpful to keep in mind that the phenomenon of light interference produces a unique color "flip" in these paints. An Interference paint reflects one color and transmits its complement. For example, in intense direct light, Interference Blue will reflect a lustrous bright blue color, while indirect light results in the appearance of the complement - in this case, a buff. This color "flip" is unique and varies according to the surface on which it's applied. On a darker surface, Interference Colors tend to have a much stronger primary color, while not showing the complement. To produce the brightest colors with the Interference line, add a small amount of black - 1:100 or less. The black will strengthen the reflected color. Add more black if darker colors are required.


As the Iridescent and Interference colors are relatively transparent, it is important to consider the impact of the base coat. By effectively varying the color of the base coat, the overall color effect can be varied dramatically, especially when the Iridescent or Interference layer is applied to maximize its transparency. For example, Interference Blue can be applied in glaze form over a light yellow or a dark red to yield some unique color effects.

Bruce
post #84 of 225
Here is another description on how some of these colours work




WE use the term iridescent colors for mica flakes coated with iron oxide that are mixed with a tinting pigment; this can be either the same hue or a contrasting hue to the iridescent color. Pearlescent or interference colors (lower right) are mica flakes coated with titanium dioxide that are not mixed with another pigment; these appear transparent on white paper. (These names are not standard industry terminology.)

The iridescent paints impart a strong color to white watercolor paper and will retain the color regardless of the angle of viewing; the pearlescent paints look nearly transparent on white paper but impart a nacreous sheen to darkened paper, depending on the angle of view.





The pearlescent or interference colors are best used as mixtures or glazes, as they are relatively colorless in themselves. Thinned sufficiently they give a nacreous sheen to any color they are glazed over, though this application can appear obtrusive because the color does not seem to merge with its background.

They will change the hue and reduce the transparency of any paint they are mixed with, and need a relatively dark background to be seen clearly. This makes them especially effective when mixed with mid valued, highly saturated colors, such as pyrrole red or quinacridone rose: the color is dark enough to display the iridescence, and saturated enough to carry a strong color as a mixture.



interference paints


"Luster" pigments are a minor innovation in artists' materials, brought in from decorative applications in crafts and cosmetics, which in turn had adopted them from the sparkly textures first used in consumer packaging and plastics. Mayer sniffs that iridescence effects "have little to do with painting but often occur in nature" — which is half true.

The first interference pigment was guanine, a protein crystal found in the scales, skin and bladder of many species of whitefish (such as sardines or herrings). The first pearlescent (or nacreous) pigment was developed in 1656 by the French rosary manufacturer François Jaquin, who made artificial pearls by painting guanine on round beads. Natural pearl essence is prized for its toughness, and the subtle warmth of its iridescent color; it is primarily used in shampoos and cosmetics.

A considerable amount of research was required before the structure of iridescent pigments was understood and artificially imitated. The breakthrough was the use of mica, a type of hydrated crystal of aluminum, magnesium or potassium silicates that naturally forms into extremely thin, flexible, transparent sheets. The mica used in artists' paints is usually muscovite, obtained either from mining scrap that is ground into powdery flakes, or (more commonly) crystallized synthetically to the required dimensions. Mica based interference pigments were introduced in the 1960's and today make up about 80% of the total interference pigments sold.

These tiny, transparent mica flakes are coated on all sides with a thin layer of metal oxide — either iron oxide or titanium dioxide. These metal oxides are highly refractive (they can bend light) and reflective. Water, for example, has a refraction index of 1.33; mica, 1.5; natural pearl, 1.9; diamond, 2.4; iron oxide, 2.4; and titanium dioxide, 2.7.

The diagram below shows how these pigments work. The coating of metal oxide creates a sandwich of different refractive materials: light is bent and reflected at the boundaries between the paint vehicle, metal oxide, and mica. (Natural pearl creates iridescence from the boundaries between alternating layers of calcium carbonate and protein.)



how iridescent pigments work


The metal oxide layer reflects light twice, from the outer surface and from the boundary with the mica flake (this double reflection happens again on the other side of the flake). The delay between the first and second reflection slightly phase shifts the wavelengths of light. The shift cancels out some wavelengths of light and reinforces others — these reinforced wavelengths are those of the dominant color of the iridescence.

The thickness of the metal oxide layer determines the size of this phase shift, and so determines the color of the iridescence. The lower section of the diagram shows, for coatings of titanium dioxide, that layers around 50 nm thick produce a silvery iridescence; increasing the coating changes the iridescence through yellow, red, blue and green. The brilliance of the iridescence declines if the coating is much thicker than 150 nm.

The alternative coating, iron oxide, refracts light in much the same way as titanium dioxide, but adds the reddish tinge characteristic of iron pigments. The same increases in thickness from 50 nm to 150 nm produce colors that appear bronze, copper, red, red-violet or red-green. Gold and brown colors can be produced by applying a layer of iron oxide on top of a layer of titanium oxide.

In addition to these coated mica flakes, the paint often contains a transparent carrier pigment, usually one of the quinacridones or a transparent iron oxide. This provides a background color for the iridescence, which by itself largely disappears on white paper.

The luminescent colors contain a carrier pigment that will mix with any color just as a normal paint would; they are also semiopaque, making them less suitable for glazes. These colors are most often used to provide color accents, or in mixtures with other appropriate pigments.


Bruce
post #85 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
i did some searching around and found this cool website:

Pigment Database

it has spectral curves for a lot of common pigments...even some pearlescent pigments.

anyways, here's my question: wouldn't cadmium yellow light make the mix look a little green?

i am also intrigued by the pearlescent copper. it has a similar curve to that of raw umber.
Great website! They even used LiquiTex paints, so cross referencing is a cinch.

No, the cadmium yellow will not increase green. It would theoretically increase red and green, but only if you subscribe to the "molecular level" crap, which I do not. And even if it did, that's the same as decreasing blue, so it works either way.

Raw umber is yellow/red, and as such will decrease green and blue. And yes, I realize we are comparing two different color systems (CIE and Munsell), but I'm comparing the colors at their equivalents in both systems.
post #86 of 225
The one ingredient to cure blue push? That assumes there is only one kind of blue push, i.e. the excess blue is the same. Depending on your other pigments, this is highly improbable. So if there are different "blues" being pushed, there needs to be different corrections.

Handprint.com (again) scroll down a little to the image that looks like a ladder with crooked rungs

Pick your blue. Pick your correction.

:)
post #87 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc G
The one ingredient to cure blue push? That assumes there is only one kind of blue push, i.e. the excess blue is the same. Depending on your other pigments, this is highly improbable. So if there are different "blues" being pushed, there needs to be different corrections.

Handprint.com (again) scroll down a little to the image that looks like a ladder with crooked rungs

Pick your blue. Pick your correction.

:)
Yes, it does appear to me that raw umber "grays out" the various blue pushing ingredients being used: Modern Masters, Auto Air, Delta, and Folk Art. Of course one ingredient never was claimed to offset the other lessor colorings caused by other ingredients, which I don't consider a problem worthy of concern.
post #88 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc G
The one ingredient to cure blue push? That assumes there is only one kind of blue push, i.e. the excess blue is the same. Depending on your other pigments, this is highly improbable. So if there are different "blues" being pushed, there needs to be different corrections.

Handprint.com (again) scroll down a little to the image that looks like a ladder with crooked rungs

Pick your blue. Pick your correction.

:)
Thanks Marc, good link! I think this is the "industry standard" reason for the raw umber recommendation. It's a good choice to make neutral gray from minimum ingredients, such as seen here: neutral gray pigment chart.

However, we are only dealing with one hue of blue, since that's all a projector produces. Using CRT colors (since I like CRT!), blue from a P22 phosphor is 450nm, which equates to 7.0PB, or PB28 (actually, the proper blue should be .15 .065 xy, but that's out of Munsell range). So by the chart, the correction is raw umber.

But we're not correcting the projector, we're correcting a paint mix - and we're not even sure what is wrong with it. We only know that it emphasizes a particular hue of light. In this case, it is theoretically caused by the silver metallic element, which is in itself a combination of pigments (to make gray), and aluminum flakes (which react to light in a manner different than pigments). And the silver metallic is mixed with yet another group of pigments that is supposed to be neutral gray, but probably isn't.

There's too many pigments and other light reflecting elements involved for any simple fix. This is why I don't agree with the BF concept. If by some coincidence it works, it isn't repeatable. The instructions say to add phthalo blue until a "dark neutral gray is achieved" - by whose standard? And by eye? It can't be done. You have to start with a balanced mix and keep it that way. You can't get neutral gray by correcting a witches' brew of craft paints. :D
post #89 of 225
Uh... something seems to be amiss. I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking at charts, but I did with testing the raw umber. It works. I saw the blue push when various ingredients were used alone. I saw the blue push diminish or disappear (guessing how much raw umber to add) when mixing it in each of these various blue pushing ingredients. I saw it work in various mixes with each of these various blue pushing ingredients. Off to work now.
post #90 of 225
So if we used a silver metalic paint and mixed it 50/50 with a flat clear and added some amount of raw umber to it we could theoretically acheive a neutral silver metallic mix?

I expremented with SM pretty extensively and never got very good results #1 being that it is just a few shades too dark. #2 it is a spray only mix in high concentrations. The only way to tame it is to add UPW or KILZ which muted the metalics too much. Is there a better silver mettalic? Maybe the DELTA?

313
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