Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach? - Page 38

Mr. B,

I have just had the pleasure of shaking down my newest pair of TF-600 s in a bare room while recovering them. No Carvers or Holography here. Half throttle, Rush Clockwork Angels. The imaging sounds fantastic, all alone like this.

Wow. I must have become jaded.

This is a response I would expect, and the reason it has been suggested that you only use ione pair. There is no way to keep the imaging with more than one pair in the front. Again I would recomend that you run only one pair. If they don't do what you want them to look for some other sepaeker to use in their place.

To your earlier post. The arc setup would only control the phase shift due to unequal distances from the listenrs ears. The second set of speakers would still add other anomolies that would be uncontrollable. Extreme room equilization may be something you want to look into. You will definately have some issues with that room. Squares are harder to work with than other shapes. Some room treatments would definatley be beneficial. Placement of furniture , speakers, etc can vary the sound greatly. Play with different positionings of all aspects that you are able. Again try what you feel you may like and see. It is yours and the only ears you have to please are your own. Good luck.

I think Jamie is the guy that taught Yoda.

Jamie - where did you get these caps for your TW7 project?

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECW-F2685HA/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujQfPAo1gw6MJSqpN%252bS5brfjf%252bMdlCNfcs%3d

I've been looking everywhere and everywhere I look they are a non-stock item with a 455 piece minimum. I'd appreciate a good source if you have one.

(Being the "animal" you are, you didn't buy the 455 minimum for your clones did you? I'll take 2 off your hands if you did.)
Edited by TonyTW3 - 3/8/13 at 10:19am

Here's more info on the ERSE caps. When I did my rebuild of the TW3 crossovers I had ordered all of the caps as 3% D.F. caps. The 100uf ones I got were white which I have later found out are the 6% D.F. caps.

I emailed ERSE to tell them I had been shipped the wrong ones and would like them to ship me replacements when the 3% D.F. are in stock (2-3 months). I received a reply telling me that they are discontinuing the 3% D.F. caps (all of them) and would not be making any more. They issued a refund for the ones they had sent to me.

So it looks like the 3% D.F. are a thing of the past. Are the 6% D.F. ones adaquate replacement or is there something out there that would be better?

This is unfortunate. I went ahead and bought the PE branded ones from Parts Express for my current projects, but really wanted to use the 3% Ersa caps for a couple of future projects.

Parts express has some pretty decent caps in their dayton line. Some even at 1% values. I have used these and had great results. I know there are better out there but prob. no electrolytics that better these film and foil types for distortion and dynamics.

I bought the PE electrolytic ones due to size constraints. They didn't have any film/foil caps in the value I needed and the poly ones are too large.

They were Panasonics ECWF (A) series.


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic-Electronic-Components/ECW-F2305HB/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvCt%252bwg%252braTug4RVpHSEGd1NBBDvi1kiIY%3D

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic-Electronic-Components/ECW-F2155JA/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv1cc3ydrPrF0%252bjlB8SXIRuAwi0zsbAaFw%3d

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECW-F2824JAQ/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujK%252bdvILcjJFFBBEqN1go0zvdg3zx50AHINnt1SOLA7Nw%3d%3d


For the value you posted, this would be the best choice:


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECW-F2685JA/?qs=%2fha2pyFadujowHntbszIh35I3NK1z5sWeqg3LAGe3XQ%3d

Jamie,

How do those sound compared to originals? have you compared them to other audio grade capacitors. The reason I ask is I followed your links and was thinking maybe I should try some to compare to others I have used and have on hand but then I noticed this in the description on one....

"designed for DC applications that do not require a significant amount of pulse current".

I am no engineer but aren't we dealing with lots of (sometimes high) current pulses of AC signals.?

How do those sound compared to originals? If you mean comparing the Panasonics in the TW7 clones as opposed to my original TW7's with the Mylar caps, as I stated before, I thought they sounded better, nothing dramatic, could even be just perceived.

I am no engineer either. When picking this series of capacitors for my projects, I pass them by Steve first. He like them and that was good enough for me. Film capacitors are not polarized and can also be used in AC applications. Check this link for a good explanation, particularly the section dealing with voltage ratings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_capacitor

....but then I noticed this in the description on one....

"designed for DC applications that do not require a significant amount of pulse current".

You must have been looking at this page:

http://www.mouser.com/new/panasonic/panasonicecw/

That's the description for the (D) series, not the (A) series that I used. On that same page, click on the ECW-F (A) tab for the description
Edited by Jamie Hauser - 3/10/13 at 11:19am

Thanks, Jamie.

If Steve ok'd them they must be perfectly fine. I just read that line on the page from one of the links you provided and it made me wonder. I may try them sometime just to see if there is an audible benefit to them as compared to the Daytons (and other similar caps) that are close in price. I am still curious about the dynamics given the sentence I copied before. But again if Steve would use them, I believe they would sound fine.

If you're referring to the sentence you copied "designed for DC applications that do not require a significant amount of pulse current", you must not have understood my reply that the description you posted was for the (D) series, not the (A) ) series that I used. Here's the data sheet http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/315/ABD0000CE47-179957.pdf , that shows the recommended applications as: 250VDC：High frequency and high current circuits and 450VDC：Active filter circuits. Nothing about the copied line "designed for DC applications that do not require a significant amount of pulse current". Unless you're referring to something else.

No not that page. I have copied and pasted below from the page I saw it on. I was this link that you suggested as the best choice for the value indicated ,under the features tab.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECW-F2685JA/?qs=%2Fha2pyFadujowHntbszIh35I3NK1z5sWeqg3LAGe3XQ%3D.

But after looking at the spec sheets for both the A and D I see that the D is more for DC. The A also indicates it is for high current but does not indicate any such recommendations for pulse current. It makes a little more sense now, And as said before. If they are good enough for Steve's ok. I am sure they are more than adequate.

Thanks again.

Panasonic Electronic Components ECW-F2685JA Larger Image
Mouser Part #:
667-ECW-F2685JA
Manufacturer Part #:
ECW-F2685JA
Manufacturer:
Panasonic Electronic Components
Description: Film Capacitors 6.8uF 250V 5% METAL POLY

Learn more about Panasonic Electronic Components ECW-F2685JA
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Panasonic ECW Metallized Plastic Film Capacitors

Panasonic Electronic Components ECW Series Metallized Plastic Film Capacitors are small, low loss polypropylene capacitors with excellent frequency characteristics and low hum. The capacitors are available in 250VDC, 450VDC, and 630VDC, and 800VDC with a capacitance range from 0.1µF to 6.8µF (250VDC, 450VDC, and 630VDC), and from 0.010µF to 0.047µF (800VDC).
Learn more

NEW! Now available in ECW-F(D) 450VDC: Polypropylene Film Capacitors, designed for DC applications that do not require a significant amount of pulse current, and for power factor correction and residential electronics applications.

Hey Jamie, am I correct that you would still use the 6% D.F. electrolytic Erse caps now that they are no longer going to make the 3% D.F.? If no, then what would you use in their place?

Parts Express shows that theirs are 5%. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=027-360 . I don't know if their build quality is as good as ERSE though.

Parts connexion has the Mundorf electrolytics at 5%.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_mundorf_bipol.html

Good find. Looks like the new go-to electrolytic.

Bubbles -- Thanks for pointing these out. I see that Jamie also likes them.

I've got a question. I see that the "raw" model of these has a 5% tolerence which I understand means it's variance from it's stated uf value. That is simple enough for me to get my head around. But I see it has a "loss angle" of .05, what is that and how does that compare to Dissipitation Factor. Are they even related? Is a loss angle of .05 the same as a 5% D.F.?

Sorry if this seems like a basic question. My skills are mechanical, I can solder and take things apart and put them back together again. But I have almost no knowledge of electronics. That's why I've been so grateful to all of you for your help in pointing me down the right path. I've learned alot!

Thanks for posting this! Even though I just bought some 47uF from PE, I'm going to buy a handful of these and use them instead.

Much appreciated.

The loss angle and dissipation factor are nothing to be concerned with in the scheme of what you are working with. They are, however, a large part of why different types of capacitors (electrolytic, metalyzed poly, film and foil) sound different.

They are both specifiacations based on dielectric losses, created by the capacitor, of the original signal snet to tha capacitor vs. the signal exiting the capacitor.
The dissipation factor is essentially how much of the signal is absorbed by the dielectic material in the cap. The loss angle is the difference (represented as an angle) between the phase of the voltage and the current of the signal,when passed through the cap.. Also caused by the dielectric material.

In essence better dielectrics have less loss and less phase shift between the current and voltage of the signal. Again, this is a bug reason why other types sound much better than electrolytics in audio signal chains. When these speakers were originally built Steve used great components of what was available at the time. (not necessarily the best because of expense and budgets, etc.). Technology has improved greatly in the past years and better components are available. That is why I rarely use elrctrolytics (though sometimes I still do), when budget allows me to purchase better materials. With very large values though this can sometimes be prohibitive, and el3ectrolytics can still be used with good success. Just keep in mind that they do add some characteristics to the signal that other types may not.

Looking for a little DCM theater advice if you guys would be willing to help.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1463807/i-have-1500-to-spend-on-improving-my-theater-what-is-my-best-option

I've just joined up and have a few questions about my newly acquired TimeWindow 3's. I've owned a set of second series Time Window 1's with the round DCM woofers (not 1a's) for several years, and love them, so I jumped on the TimeWindow 3's that appeared on my local CL. Unfortunately, the deal wasn't quite as good as I thought. I paid $225, knowing one looked nearly perfect and the other had some definite cloth wear like a cat went to town on it, and the knob was off one of the trim pots in the back, but the seller had the knob.

But things got worse after getting them home I discovered two tweeters were dead, one in each speaker that I've verified as open with a multimeter, and that the pot with the missing knob, was actually broken. You can pull the shaft out completely from the pot. Luckily, I sourced two replacement Vifa D19TD-07 tweeters today from a fellow AudioKarma member, I'll just need to cut the mounting flanges to the TW3 shape. The pot, now is a concern. I took some close ups of the shaft and it doesn't seem to have snapped off, maybe I can reinstall it after I get the rest of the pot out, and taken apart, but if not, do I have any options for replacement? The original seems to have written on the back Obata Electric Co and says 50 ohm, and also Ph-301. It's the third one down for the tweeter level.

I also have a question on grill cloth. I'm going to just do both speakers even though one looks fine, so that they'll match. I think I saw a post here earlier recommending the standard cloth from PE, but I also notice they sell Mellotone Premium, that is supposed to be a really dark black, instead of dark grayish black like many others. It costs quite a bit more, I think $19.90 a yard, and it looks like I'd need three yards to cover these. Does this seem better than the standard cloth and a better match for the deep black the speakers are now? Also, does anyone have any good instructions on just exactly how to make the new cloth covers? I realize you just need to sew one stitch in the back, but any pointers and tips would be appreciated. I have access to a sewing maching and someone that knows how to sew well enough.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-332&scqty=3

I believe too I read that underneath the cloth is basically headliner material, I'll go back and try to find that unless someone has the info handy. I admit, I almost considered parting these out after finding out the problems, but I'm sure I'll find it all worth while after I finally get them fixed. At least I hope so. If they are even slightly better than my TimeWindows, they'll be worth it.

Here are some pics:




One of the dead tweeters



The shaft from the pot

The potentiometers are wire wound, these two would be suitable replacements, just compare shaft lengths to the original.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/CTS-Electronic-Components/026TB32R500B1A1/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtC25l1F4XBU0oRhBXFgufY8XTMTCkB6PM%3d

or

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Alpha-Taiwan/VW24F-10-195K-B50/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtC25l1F4XBU36uG75YKOIjTgnhhjxcCus%3d

As far as a replacement knob, I believe this is it. If it's not the exact match. It's cheap enough, I would replace all six.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Davies-Molding/1510AH/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuiwDVLTMm01ajIGS4kAMb6mWHILx2U4J4%3d


The grill cloth you posted looks good, it's hard to find a really black material. I found that out when I was looking for a replacement cloth for my original TimeWindow Sevens. The problem was the few "black" samples I had looked dark gray next to the piano black trim. I was able to find the OEM cloth and bought quite a few yards of it for all of my other projects. Just use your old "sock" as a pattern (inside out when you sew it). Make the new one longer though so you have something to grab on to for stretching the material. You'll trim the excess off after you have it adhesed down. Check my post # 954.

For paint, I would use Krylon semi-gloss or satin black . Use between a 600 to 800 grit paper for initial sanding and between coats. It' dries fast and very forgiving.

http://www.krylon.com/products/indooroutdoor_paint/

P.S.

I would like to add to any new posters to this thread that I would rather answer question in the forum as opposed to in a private message so that others with similar questions can also benefit. There are other knowledgeable and experienced contributors to this thread that can answer some question better than I. If you want me to directly address a question though, state that in the beginning of your post.

I really appreciate your help. This went from thinking I was getting a functional pair of speakers that just needed some grill cloth, to a much more major over haul, but I think it's going to be a little easier than I had originally thought. So I have tweeters on the way, last night I ordered some headliner material from ebay (it came in a roll 60x120") for $39.95 shipped, so I'll have plenty of material in case something goes wrong there, although I think that is pretty straight forward. I'm assuming that just gets wrapped around the enclosure as one piece held on with spray adhesive, and then trimmed around the speaker openings and ports. I'm not sure about the back. I wonder if it's better to try and trim it around the pots and cal ports and having 100% coverage over the enclosure, or just leave about a 1/2 inch gap in the middle of the back, starting it just past those spots and finish right up to those spots, which seems easier. Advice here would be helpful.

I'm going to go ahead and order the cloth I linked to earlier, as it seems to be the deepest black, and what's a few bucks, well actually more than double the price I guess, but if I have to do it, I may as well do it the best I can. On painting the tops which aren't real bad, but not perfect, I use 600-800 grit sand paper to sand the original finish first, then continue to sand between coats. What do I do on the final coat, does it get sanded too, or I guess, the final coat gets left as is? This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm not a pro at painting and would hate to make them look worse than how they sit now. Just being cautious.

The second pot you linked to looks more correct, and I'm going to bring home my digital calipers from work and take some measurements to make sure I get the right length. There is one male terminal on the crossover board I snapped off by accident, does this look like a similar type? Again I'll measure that too.

http://www.te.com/catalog/pn/en/63756-1?RQPN=63756-1

One final thing, and I'm sorry to ask so many questions, I just want to get this all right, I'm thinking about replacing the factory banana plugs with binding posts. Should I be concerned about originality, or is the upgrade worth it anyway? I think I noticed yours had binding posts.

Thanks again,

Steve

I wouldn't leave a gap. The material pretty easy to work with. I would lay the cabinet on it's side on a protected surface (multiple layers of old news paper works good because you can remove individual sheets if you get too much overspray from the adhesive on them) and apply the material that way. Pre-punch the holes for the pots about an inch or two from the edge, make sure to leave excess material to fold over the top and bottom of the cabinet. Spray a good 6" or more of the adhesive down the back of the length of the speaker where the pots are and line the punched holes up and attach the leading edge of the headliner. After that. flip the material back over and just continue to apply the adhesive in wide strips ( 12" or what ever is workable for you) and keep attaching the headliner. Roll the cabinet when you need to. Trim it to the other edge when you get to it. The excess material on the ends can then be rolled over, adhesed and trim.


You don't sand the final coat.


Even if the shaft is slightly long, you can compensate by using a thicker bed of hot glue to set it in. Use a heat gun of hair drier to soften the old hot glue to remove the bad pot.
The male terminal looks right, just check the tab size against the original. Mouser carries the same part, save on shipping if you order the replacement pot from them.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/63756-1/?qs=%2fha2pyFadugbKbysxpsvYRagJ9MfkZqtYWAh3LXJEK4%3d


Personal choice, I use the binding post because I have all spade connectors on my speaker wires.

Again, I really appreciate your help on this. I think this project is going to a be success after getting your help. I'll post pictures once the restoration gets started.

While you have your speakers apart you might want to consider replacing the electrolytic capacitors if they have not been replaced before. I recently rebuilt the crossovers in my pair pf TW3's and replacing the electrolytic caps made a very dramatic improvement in the sound quality.

I got a lot of help here on this board and you could start on Post 1051 to follow along with what you would need to do.

The electrolytic caps that were recommended are no longer available but these would be good substitutes.

MUNDORF-71874 You will need 4 of them.
MUNDORF-71878 You will need 4 of them.

They can be found on this page http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_mundorf_bipol.html Just scroll down and you will see them.

It's a very inexpensive way if improving the sound quality if the ones in the speakers now are old.

Jamie - I looked around on this forum to see where you got the OEM grill cloth for your TW7's. I saw references to Trend Textiles and tried to find them on google with no success.

I want to recover my TW7's and TW3's and would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction on where to find the OEM cloth you found.

Thanks.

Bubbles - Thanks for your precise answer to the question I posted earlier about DF and Loss Angle. It took me some time to digest what you said as well as some additional research on my part to get it to sink in on me. I realize that they are both measures of the amount of signal that gets lost traveling through the capacitor which obviously colors the sound that comes out of the speakers.

From the reading that I did I have come to understand that DF=Loss Angle. In other words a 5% DF is the same as a .05 Loss Angle. Please correct me if I am wrong. I'm just trying to understand how I would compare 2 capacitors which are described with different specs.

Also can you tell me why DF and Loss Angle would not be important with regard to "the scheme of what you are working with". It would seem that it would be important in getting caps with better tolerances and DF/Loss Angles as they would more accurately transmit the original signal through the capacitor.

I appreciate you help - It's been a good education.