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Whatever happened to DCM's Steve Eberbach? - Page 30

post #871 of 1643
Ok, we are officially dissapointed by our new tw3s, Im thinking they are just power hungry, presently driving them with 125 watt adcom gfa5400, of which i own two.

Would be willing to sell both of these and buying more powerful amp if that would make the difference.

Cant believe the difference between these and our 1as we had to send back due to ups damage.

Even with one damaged driver, the 1as were astounding, even the old beat up 1s we now have in front of 3s are far better.

Just none of the whatever it is that makes tws what they are.

Am including pics of one crossover, and top, wondering if batting should also be behind other driver in speak.

have not opened other one yet.

Any advice would be appreciated concerning power possibly being the problem, seriously bummed here.
LL
LL
post #872 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigugh View Post

I'm very pleased to have stumbled across this thread and discovered that DCM is still alive and well among so many others.

I'd like to begin with some shameless fawning and say to Mr. Hauser that you are a gifted craftsman and I eagerly anticipate the audio review on your new 7's when you get them finished. What a project!

I had the great good fortune to work in a hi-fi shop in the late 70's that was a DCM dealer where I had the opportunity to A/B via a switching console every combination of signal source, pre and power amp and speaker in the shop, all in a tuned listening room environment. After listening to the TW 1's for the first time, I picked my jaw off the floor, bought a pair and have never looked back (they absolutely burned down some very highly regarded and very expensive speakers.) Today, like me, they're getting old but still standing, and I still love 'em.

I recently made a serious score and picked up two pair of mint TW Surroundscapes (along with four BGW monoblock amps) and have a couple of questions for any of you who would care to chime in. First of all, having incorporated one pair of these into my HT (Wow!) I immediately realized I need a better center channel speaker. Having read through this thread I see that the CX 17 is well-thought of for this application. Right now on Ebay there is an orphan CX 17 (kind of rough-looking), as well an orphan CX 07 and a 16C for sale. Any and all thoughts/opinions on these or anything else would be appreciated. Also, have any of you tried on a pair of these as regular stereo speakers? Would I find enough 'improvement' over my TW 1's to warrant the effort to rig them, or should I just keep Pair #2 as spares?

Thanks in advance & it's great to be here.

Don


Steve did make a SurroundScape Center to match the SurroundScapes, after that I would go with the CX17. Don't bother with the others.
post #873 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyboy76 View Post

Ok, we are officially dissapointed by our new tw3s, Im thinking they are just power hungry, presently driving them with 125 watt adcom gfa5400, of which i own two.

Would be willing to sell both of these and buying more powerful amp if that would make the difference.

Cant believe the difference between these and our 1as we had to send back due to ups damage.

Even with one damaged driver, the 1as were astounding, even the old beat up 1s we now have in front of 3s are far better.

Just none of the whatever it is that makes tws what they are.

Am including pics of one crossover, and top, wondering if batting should also be behind other driver in speak.

have not opened other one yet.

Any advice would be appreciated concerning power possibly being the problem, seriously bummed here.

Sorry for your disappointment, but it should not be the case. The TimeWindow Three's are only surpassed by the Seven's. I doubt changing amps would make any difference, the Adcom are very respectable. I have found through the years that the better my equipment was the worse my source material became. It could be as simple as the TW3's are more "revealing" to bad source material (poorly recorded CD's). I have some of my favorites I can't listen to anymore. With that said, this is how I would proceed:

Have you played with the "Dispersion Controls" (top-rear of the cabinet)? It would be best to have a copy of the owner's instruction for adjusting them to your room and to your tastes. I can email you a copy if you don't have one. I would start with them in the "straight up" position and adjust from there.

Replace the electrolytic caps (search previous posts in this thread).

If you have a Blu-ray player, try a high-resolution recording such as: http://www.amazon.com/Torpedoes-Blu-ray-Audio-Petty- Heartbreakers/dp/B0042KZJ50/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1327361395&sr=1-1 and see if that would make the difference.

After that, I would check to see if there are any problems with the drivers. A sound pressure meter (Radio Shack) and Test Tone CD (here's one you can download for free: (http://www.snapbug.ws/sinewaves/ ) would help identify a problem.

There are a few other members that also have the TimeWindow Three's; maybe someone can add their experiences?
post #874 of 1643
Not sure how to isolate a single driver with a test tone, but i will do some homework.

Im thinking i will go the recapping route, not a huge amount of money, and speaks this old surely would not suffer from new caps.

Just need to find a good tech here in the north georgia mtns, or maybe atlanta.

Anybody have opinion about whether the batting completely filling the cabinet behind driver pictured?

Definitely not the source of main problem, but while i have them cracked open.
post #875 of 1643
Just ran across this forum while searching the web trying to figure out how much to sell my Timewindow 7's for on Craigslist. Anyone have any idea? Of course after reading through the posts, now I am not sure if I should. Thanks for all the great info on this site. I will be spending the next few days trying to absorb all the data you have on the TW7's. I have had a hard time finding any info besides here about these speakers anywhere.
post #876 of 1643
Donny, Where are you located as far as craigslist?

Jomoco
post #877 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoco View Post

Donny, Where are you located as far as craigslist?

Jomoco

Seattle
post #878 of 1643
Seattle
post #879 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Hauser View Post


Steve did make a SurroundScape Center to match the SurroundScapes, after that I would go with the CX17. Don't bother with the others.

Thanks - I'll pick up a CX 17 and maybe a SurroundScape Center will turn up someday.
post #880 of 1643
Thanks jamie, just bought an spl meter, will download what you referred me to tonight, and i found a place called audiolab of ga.

They sell caps and such, and do repairs.

He said it would be app. 75 bucks for labor.

Did you select the erse caps for quality, or would their caps be suitable.

It will be 2 to 4 weeks after dropping them off before the work is finished, so i could order the erses or have them use theirs.

I have one shot at this, want to do it right.

Thanks in advance.

scott
post #881 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyboy76 View Post

Thanks jamie, just bought an spl meter, will download what you referred me to tonight, and i found a place called audiolab of ga.

They sell caps and such, and do repairs.

He said it would be app. 75 bucks for labor.

Did you select the erse caps for quality, or would their caps be suitable.

It will be 2 to 4 weeks after dropping them off before the work is finished, so i could order the erses or have them use theirs.

I have one shot at this, want to do it right.

Thanks in advance.

scott

The biggest concern is finding an electrolytic cap with a dissipation factor of 5% or less. ERSE's were the only ones that I could find that fit the bill, plus having 5% tolerance to boot. You need to check the specs. on the ones the repair facility uses to decide and if they will let you supply your own if you choose to do so.

As far as the batting goes, it looks the same as my TW3's. Its placement is part of the transmission line design.
post #882 of 1643
Good info on the caps, and batting.

I will be taking speaks to atlanta tues.

First to audio alternatives, a high end audio shop, to hook them up and get their opinion.

Then on to audiolab to drop off my speaks.

Im sorry to be such a pest, but i have one more question, I have less than basic knowledg of these terms and such.

If i order 4 each of the caps you have listed on previous page to upgrade the crossovers of 3s, will that be all i need for the cap portion of upgrade?, there is some discussion in that same paragraph, of other parts and choices made that i dont understand, as long as i get what i need properly ordered, i will deliver those to audiolab in time for repair.

Thanks again.

Btw a pair of 1as just popped up on ebay needing both tweets in one speak replaced.

Im damn tempted after hearing those a couple months ago.

But a disability check does not go far, and im really hopeful these 3s will be reborn.
post #883 of 1643
[quote=scottyboy76;21562703]Good info on the caps, and batting.



To do both speakers you'll need four 100uF 100v and four 47uF 100v non-polar electrolytic.

They stock the 100uF value w/3% D.F., but not the 47uF. You need to order four 22uF and four 25uF values w/3% D.F. to combined them to make up the four 47uF value.

Here's the links:

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10A-05-100-0-PB

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10A-05-22-0-PB

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10A-05-25-0-PB

Order four of each.


They do stock the 47uF 100v w/6% D.F if you would rather not double up the 22uF and 25uF then order:
 
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10A-05-100-0-PB

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10C-05-47-0-PB

Order four of each.


Hope this helps, good luck.
post #884 of 1643
One other thing that may be a worry about the tw3s not sounding "great" is that the previous owner may have messed with the factory calibration screws/pots.
The one thing that I know my tw3's needed to blossom were a tightening of the long bolts and some basic stereo equalization ( they're in a weird shaped room)
In another note, a friend is trying to find a perfect center for a pair of tf600's in his home theatre setup. He's tried a cx17 and cx27. The prefers the cx27 sound (it's a 6ohm impedence like the tf600s) but the size if the cx27 makes it impractical. I had an idea of taking a kx-center and replacing the tweeter and crossover with those of a cx27. Do you happen to have the cx27 crossover schematics Jamie?

Ps. I did manage to wire into a pair of cx17's the delay circuit from the surroundscape center, and despite using less the ideal components, the imaging sharpened up DRAMATICALLY. Those little guys went from very good to amazing. Thanks for your help!
post #885 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danislous View Post

One other thing that may be a worry about the tw3s not sounding "great" is that the previous owner may have messed with the factory calibration screws/pots.
The one thing that I know my tw3's needed to blossom were a tightening of the long bolts and some basic stereo equalization ( they're in a weird shaped room)
In another note, a friend is trying to find a perfect center for a pair of tf600's in his home theatre setup. He's tried a cx17 and cx27. The prefers the cx27 sound (it's a 6ohm impedence like the tf600s) but the size if the cx27 makes it impractical. I had an idea of taking a kx-center and replacing the tweeter and crossover with those of a cx27. Do you happen to have the cx27 crossover schematics Jamie?

Ps. I did manage to wire into a pair of cx17's the delay circuit from the surroundscape center, and despite using less the ideal components, the imaging sharpened up DRAMATICALLY. Those little guys went from very good to amazing. Thanks for your help!

I have an old Atlantic Technology 453C as a center for my TF600's and it is remarkably close in timbre to the 600's. Only if I get sound that pans across the front three do I notice any difference and it is quite subtle.
post #886 of 1643
Next up in the project is to install the tweeters and their perforated metal grills. The grills are similar to the ones used in the CX series but deeper. They are the same as that used in the SurroundScape Center and possibly some of the TimeFrame series (thanks for member sydneybird for selling me the screens and other key parts I was short!). They all used a single thick layer of felt sandwiched between the grills as shown in the first photo. Its purpose is for absorption and disbursement. The TimeWindow Seven's version is much more refined and tailored specifically to them. It also incorporates another material called Thinsulate made by 3M. I talked to Steve about the science involved and it's more than I can do justice in trying to explain here. He did say that it is addresses in one of his patents though. I was able to get the correct materials and with the originals as patterns, I was able to duplicate them with enough confidence to hopefully get similar results.

Below is the felt used in the CX and TF series.




This one is the original TW7 opened up. The Thinsulate is the white material on the left. Notice that under the four black felt pieces, there are two longer pieces underneath.




Here is one of the longer pieces opened up to show a piece of Thinsulate sandwiched inside.




The following are the ones I made.









post #887 of 1643
This is one of the assemblies installed.




I have all of the other assemblies done and installed. The speakers are ready for testing. This will probably be the last post on the project for a while. I will be waiting for booth time at a local body shop to finish the tops, bottoms, and fluted sidepieces. The grill cloth "socks" are cut to size and just need to be sewn.
post #888 of 1643
Thanks! I'll send the info his way (Now I just have to convince him that his b&w matrix 2's are not the best choice as surrounds)
post #889 of 1643
First time poster, long time listener. What a wealth of information here.

I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on this, or if maybe Jamie you could run this past Steve next time you talk. I have a dedicated HT/listening room in which I've acoustically treated the front and side walls and ceiling at the first reflection points. How does sound dampening affect the imaging on the series two TimeFrames (TF600) with the rear-firing tweeters. I know most speakers greatly benefit from FRP treatment, but I had a pair of bi-polar Mirage (OM10) where in the manual they said specifically NOT to treat the first reflections points--that the reflections were necessary for the psycho-acoustics. Are Steve's designs considered "bi-polar" and would I be better off to remove the sound panels for the best soundstage and imaging?
post #890 of 1643
I seem to remember from the time window's manual that the wall reflections are taken into account in the speakers' design. I'd be inclined to think the time frame series us similar in that regard. If it's easy to do so, I'd say try em out with and without the anechoic treatment, and keep the setup that sounds the best to you. On a semi-related note, this has caught my attention as of late...
http://www.blackdahlia.com/tipindex/...1/tip__11.html
post #891 of 1643
just thought i would let you know, i have remailed my caps to audiolab of georgia,Thanks to jamie, without his help, this would have been much harder and probably impossible to do this well.

We all owe him a great deal for doing the grunt work with steve, so we can all benefit.

BTW, audiolab guys were supernice, down to earth, and were very impressed when i carried those big tw3s in, they will be doing a thorough checkup, replacing caps, and anything else that is amiss.

I know you all know what caps look like but i cant help it, here are some pics.

Its going to be several weeks for work to be done as they have a tech out on medical leave, and i cant wait, hoping this breathes new life into them.
LL
post #892 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditops View Post

First time poster, long time listener. What a wealth of information here.

I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on this, or if maybe Jamie you could run this past Steve next time you talk. I have a dedicated HT/listening room in which I've acoustically treated the front and side walls and ceiling at the first reflection points. How does sound dampening affect the imaging on the series two TimeFrames (TF600) with the rear-firing tweeters. I know most speakers greatly benefit from FRP treatment, but I had a pair of bi-polar Mirage (OM10) where in the manual they said specifically NOT to treat the first reflections points--that the reflections were necessary for the psycho-acoustics. Are Steve's designs considered "bi-polar" and would I be better off to remove the sound panels for the best soundstage and imaging?

Your question is interesting because a few days ago Steve was telling me how he developed the original TimeWindow. The story started with Bob Carver being able to duplicate the sound of any highly priced amplifiers with a less expensive one he could design. (Google "The Carver Challenge"). Steve did something similar years before when he was planning the TimeWindow. The reference speakers that he wanted his to sound like, but at a much more affordable cost, were the Dahlquist DQ-10, the Magneplanar, and the Quad Electrostatic. All considered bipolar or partly bipolar (Dahlquist DQ-10). I don't know if he carried that into the TimeFrame design, my guess he did.

Here's a link of Steve talking about it:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19914615/highlight/234880

I'm more of a fan of using diffusers at the first reflection points.
 
 
post #893 of 1643
Just watched the vid, amazing to hear from the man hmself, cant believe the dcm name has been nailed down, after all the rumors.

And i love that group, where are they meeting, Im thinking michigan, because they remind me of my uncle, and his family and neighbors, who we visited every year in detroit for our summer vacation.
post #894 of 1643
just looked it up, as i thought, in mich.

What an awesome thing.

Wish we had such a group in the n. georgia mountains.
post #895 of 1643
Got a pair of CX-17's (using one for center) off ebay to go with my TF-500's. Woohoo. Thinking about getting another pair for surrounds. :-) These TF-500's have such an amazing soundstage. I haven't listened to the other TF or TW series speakers, but I was very impressed.

If anyone wants to sell a pair of CX-17's, or a Surroundscape center, let me know.

I already started on another set of speakers (EMPTek towers and center), but just had to get the CX-17's for the "set." The TF-500's are great for 2.1 music, but why limit them? The future holds many possibilities. :-)
post #896 of 1643
Hello, i am new here. Have been a DCM and audio fan for quite some time and am now doing my 1st DCM rebuild/ restoration on a pair of TW-1's. All my drivers are good. I plan on updating the xovers but am not sure exactly what I will do to it yet. From that I mean that I have read that the driver complement and part #'s are the same for the TW-1 and the TW-1a's but can't find any definitive proof of that to date. The #'s on the bass/ mid drivers from my cabinets are 4846SD printed above the # 575206 and the tweeters #'s are AD 0140 T8 printed above 2422 257 33202 which is printed above DD10 127 111. This last set of 3's is the same on 2 tweeters and on one of the others it is DD10 122 111 and on the last I can only make out the DD10 1?? 111 as it is printed over the indent on the center of the magnet. I assume the tweeters are the same as the 1A's as I have found where the 1A's use the AD0160 or AD0140 which seems to match. The numbers I have found for the 1A bass/ mid drivers is AD80xx as given in a diagram in this thread which doesn't seem to match or even relate to any #'s on my drivers. I guess my point being is if the two models use the same drivers and same cabinet but the 1A uses an updated (possibly better ) crossover why not try to match the crossover to that of the 1A instead of the original 1 if the correct inductors can be found. Either way i plan to build new end-caps with the bottom endcap acting as a base/ riser and mount the x-over external to the cabinet inside the base for easy access. I will performing other upgrades/ mods to the cabinets as well but am trying to get my complete game plan together so as to order necessary parts. Also for future purposes, does anyone have the detailed specs on this tweeter. Since this type diaphragm is so readily available, in many different materials, etc. it may be worth experimenting with different diaphragms if some can be found with suitable specs. Does anyone have a schematic for the TW1 crossover which includes values for the inductors. One more thing; the tiny (approximately 20 awg) wiring inside the cabinet, seems terribly on the small side. A question for maybe Jamie or possibly someone else with a lot of crossover experience and or contact with Steve, would there be any negative effects of replacing the wiring with a larger gauge for better damping and amplifier control. I see that the woofer and tweeter wiring appears to be the same lengths and i realize that changing the wiring would slightly effect DCR which would in turn effect the crossover function. i am just not sure to what extent (most likely negligible). I don't see any negative possibilities or effects to the crossover of using larger wiring between the banana jacks and the crossover board, but am more concerned with the wiring between the crossover and drivers.
post #897 of 1643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabin057 View Post

Got a pair of CX-17's (using one for center) off ebay to go with my TF-500's. Woohoo. Thinking about getting another pair for surrounds. :-) These TF-500's have such an amazing soundstage. I haven't listened to the other TF or TW series speakers, but I was very impressed.

If anyone wants to sell a pair of CX-17's, or a Surroundscape center, let me know. :-)

I've been gone for awhile. Good to see some new blood here. As always, I'm living vicariously through Jamie concerning his new project.

I've two TW3s for fronts with two CX-17s for surrounds and one for a center. Vistors always marvel at the sharp sound it produces, whether for movies or music. It so happens I have one CX-17 I'm not using. It's slightly damaged at the top/middle and the fabric needs to be somewhat repaired but it's sound is wonderful. If you'd like it, I'd be more than happy to send it to you for the cost of shipping only. If interested, PM me. Just trying to pay it forward because of the great help on this thread.
post #898 of 1643
Hello!
I joined this site solely because of this particular thread. As others have stated, this has been a most enjoyable read and I concur that a novel or movie be made out of the ups and downs the members experiences.

on to my post

I have a pair of veneer speakers with an unsightly foam grill on them-the tag on the back reads that they are mfd. in U.S.A. by Island Sound ltd. Ann Arbor, Michigan and the model is called Image Master. I googled Island Sound ltd. and the name that was on the website as the registered agent was Howard Krausse. The address given is 670 Airport Blvd.

any chance anyone knows more about these?
post #899 of 1643
Howard Krause, along with Steve Eberbach, was one of the three founding members of DCM. He is also listed as assignee on some of Steve's patents.

DCM did make a speaker called Image Master and their address at the time was at 670 Airport Blvd, Ann Arbor, MI.

From what I remember Steve telling me was that they were very accurate but were limited on how much power they could be fed.

Here are a ccouple of photo's of the DCM'S Image Master.
LL
LL
post #900 of 1643
You forgot the pics Jamie!
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