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Upgrade-itis and my Onkyo S780

post #1 of 183
3/13/06 at 2:51pm
Thread Starter 
Long time lurker... First time poster. I'm a newbie, so please be gentle.

I'm in the process of setting up my first home theater. I recently renovated my basement with the sole purpose of making it a movie/video game room. Its dimensions are about 14x15 ft and its wired for 7.1.

I purchased the Onkyo S780 and made the mistake of reading these forums. I thought it sounded pretty darn good... and now I'm not sure. The surround speakers sound a bit fuzzy... and apparently "Onkyo speakers have no clarity."

Many people seem to recommend the Athena speakers and the 12" Dayton. My surrounds need to be wall mounted, but my rear surrounds can sit on a book case. I have nice mounts for the fronts and the center will sit on the component cabinet.

Here is my dilemma: Should I keep the receiver that came with the 780 and upgrade the fronts and rear surrounds to Athena B1.2's and the Dayton Sub? Are there wall mounted Athenas for my surrounds? Will my current receiver be underpowered? Should I upgrade the receiver and start over from scratch?

I'd really appreciate any recommendations that you can provide... my Panasonic 42px60u should be here next week. I'm willing to piece it all together over time, but I'm afraid of creating some kind of Frankenstein system on my own.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 183
3/13/06 at 4:20pm
the most noticeable upgrade would be the speakers. the B1's are nice bookshelf speakers that are a great L&R solution if paired with a good sub. the S.5's are smaller and come with excellent mounting brackets. i'm using them as surrounds, and they get the job done, but B1's would be better...i just don't have the room for them as surrounds right now.

the 780 receiver is a fine entry level piece, i would worry more about replacing the speakers and sub first. the receiver will do you fine for now.

the sub is a whole 'nother animal. the dayton would be a step up from the onkyo sub, but there are increasing returns as you spend more $$. depends on how high you want to go.
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post #3 of 183
3/13/06 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks G-Star. So, you think it would be best to do the B1's for L, R, and C, then consider .5's for the Surrounds, and B1's for my rear.... and keep my Onkyo receiver (for now).

What kind of sub would you recommend? I've heard a good deal about SVS, but I don't know if I'm willing to go to that level. If I had a limit of $500, could you give me a few recommendations?

Would I see much of an improvement on my above set-up by replacing the receiver, or would my Onkyo handle it well?

I'm most interested in getting "bang for my buck". If replacing the speakers will be the biggest improvement, that's where I'll start. If changing out my sub or receiver will do great things, then I'll start there.

thank you.
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post #4 of 183
3/13/06 at 5:33pm
I was in your shoes about a month ago. You can read some of "my story" starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7143085

and more of it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7161295

I don't know what kind of budget you are looking at for your system, but you can put together some nice things for not much more than what you paid for the S780.

The best thing I did was to listen to a few sets of speakers at the audio store and take a pair home that sounded good and were within my budget. Doing an A/B on the speakers I took home and the ones that came with the Onkyo was a night and day difference.

I am not going to make recommendations on specific brands speakers because everyone has different tastes. The best place to invest your money is a well matched set of fronts and a center, then a sub, then surrounds. As far as replacing speakers and keeping the receiver - you can get some pretty good receivers for $400-$500 that will be better than the included Onkyo depending on your needs. Many people find the Pioneer VSX-1015TX to be a stand out in this price range. Others will recommend refurbed HKs. If you can find a shop in your area that will let you buy and return or better yet borrow then you will be much better served.

So, figure out your budget, then accept the fact that when all is said and done you'll spend 20% more than that and you'll be able to piece together a great system.
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post #5 of 183
3/13/06 at 5:52pm
i would suggest either AS-B1.2's or AS-F1.2's for fronts, the AS-C1.2 for the center, and the Point 5's for surrounds like G-Star recommended. you don't need to go overboard with the rear and rear surround speakers, they will be played the least, and the Point 5's do come with excellent mounting brackets and seem like your best option...

as far as the subwoofer goes, honestly i would shoot higher than the Dayton, considering the system is going to be in a game room. i would personally recommend the Acoustech BIC H-100, i think it's the best subwoofer you'll find for under $300, and in a room like you want something better than an entry level subwoofer...

as far as the receiver goes, you can use the Onkyo receiver for now, but i would recommend that you get rid of it as soon as you can. it will get you by if your budget's tight, but the speakers will sound much better with a better receiver, like the HK135/140 or HK235/240. you can find either of those refurbished for under $300, and you will DEFINITELY notice a difference in sound quality just by changing the receiver...
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post #6 of 183
3/14/06 at 5:00am
i would agree with all of the suggestions so far. i like the athena sound, and they are MUCH better than the onkyo speakers, but they can be tough to find to audition in person, so its a small gamble. i'd also look at klipsch, polk, infinity, jbl, if you're going to do some auditioning.

516 is right about the receiver, something like the pio 1014/15 or H/K 235/240 will give you more features, power, and SQ, but it will probably make the least noticeable impact relative to changing the sub/speakers, IMO.

a good sub will make your system sound noticeably better. a great sub will absolutely knock your socks off, and not just at high volumes/low frequencies. properly calibrated, it will make everything sound more rich and full. there are tons of options for under $500. the sub 516 recommended has a good reputation, and would be a big step up from the dayton. if you're willing to go for a best in class under $500 sub, the SVS PB-10, mirage S-12, or HSU STF series would be the cream of the crop and would be better performers in terms of deep, clean extension.

you have to decide on what you want to spend. 5 athenas, a new receiver, and a great sub are going to cost a lot more than the 780, but you'll know where your money went instantly. if you want to keep it in the same price range, i'd keep the receiver and start by replacing the speakers and sub. keep in mind you can sell those onkyo speakers and sub on ebay/craigslist and offset the cost of new equipment. that's what i did.

good luck.
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post #7 of 183
3/14/06 at 5:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chancellormark View Post

If I had a limit of $500, could you give me a few recommendations?

do you mean a limit of $500 for just the subwoofer, or the entire system? if you mean just the subwoofer, then go with the SVS PB10. if you mean the entire system, that's going to be tough, without going entry level on everything...
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post #8 of 183
3/14/06 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
When I started my basement remodel, the floor was covered with 4 layers of decomposing carpet and a few inches of dirt... I thought I might just clean it up and throw on some drywall and fresh paint, then get a HTIB and a decent DLP.

Now, after $10k for running recessed lighting, electricity, wood flooring, insulation, drywall, paint, and ventilation, plus another $5k in furniture... I'm willing to spend a little more than I had planned for my speakers, receiver, and sub.

I really respect the knowledge in this forum and appreciate all recommendations. I'm not sure where I could go to audition many high-end speakers in my area, but if there are enough glowing reviews, I'll take the gamble and buy online. I don't have much brand loyalty and have only focused on the Athenas because of their reputation on this forum.

I've already realized that I'm going to spend more than I planned on... My original $5k remodel has ballooned into well over $20k after factoring in my plasma and sound system.

I don't want to reach the point of diminishing returns and buy components that I couldn't differentiate from something cheaper or something overkill for my room (14x15 w/ 7 ft ceilings). I don't have specific price points and would not be uncomfortable buying a $500 sub, as long as it was valuable to my system.

With that said, I'm leaning towards G-Stars recommendation and upgrading speakers first, then sub, then receiver. I can afford to do it all at once, but after all the damage to my bank balance the past 2 months, I'd be more comfortable doing a little at a time over the next few months(at least until I break in my plasma).

Also, thank you Five One Six and G-Star, I'm planning on taking your advice on the B1.2's for L,R and the C1.2, then the point 5's for surrounds. I'm going to try and research the Acoustech BIC H-100 and SVS PB10 on the forums. Then I'll look at a new receiver... this peer pressure is killing me.

I haven't made my upgrade purchases yet, so if anyone else has recommendations, I'm open to them...

thank you,
mark
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post #9 of 183
3/14/06 at 10:37am
After doing a listening session with the H100 this weekend, I've got to say you won't be disappointed. It sounds like a much more expensive sub, musical and capable to 25hz with enough output for your room. As G-star and 516 both said, spending the additional $200 bucks for the PB10 raises the bar considerably. It's a different level of performance...

I swapped out my gear over months and sold the Onkyo system on craiglist for more than it was selling for online at the time. So by all means take your time. LCR, surrounds, sub and receiver is a reasonable order for upgrading.
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post #10 of 183
3/14/06 at 11:50am
if you're going to go with the Athena's, which is a good choice, i would definitely recommend going with a HK receiver over a Pioneer or Onkyo. don't get me wrong, Pioneer and Onkyo make good receivers, but i personally think the Athena's sound better with a HK...

yes, i use a Pioneer 1014 with the AS-F1's and AS-C1, but that doesn't mean it's for everyone. i know some people that have used the same speakers with both Pioneer and HK receivers, and they will tell you that the speakers will sound brighter with the Pioneer. that type of sound is not fine with everyone, to me it is, but to you it may not be...
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post #11 of 183
3/14/06 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIVE ONE SIX View Post

if you're going to go with the Athena's, which is a good choice, i would definitely recommend going with a HK receiver over a Pioneer or Onkyo. don't get me wrong, Pioneer and Onkyo make good receivers, but i personally think the Athena's sound better with a HK...

yes, i use a Pioneer 1014 with the AS-F1's and AS-C1, but that doesn't mean it's for everyone. i know some people that have used the same speakers with both Pioneer and HK receivers, and they will tell you that the speakers will sound brighter with the Pioneer. that type of sound is not fine with everyone, to me it is, but to you it may not be...

Funny you should mention that...my HK is in for repair/exchange and I borrowed a 1015. With my Polks and the EQ, the Pio tamed some of the brightness and did some neat things with the soundstage. The HK has a different sound, great separation and punch, seems more powerful than the Pio, but for a smooth warm sound, the EQ'd Pio wins. Strange what a room will do...
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post #12 of 183
3/14/06 at 12:20pm
Thread Starter 
I've seen many HK advocates in this forum and that's the way that I started leaning once I made the decision to upgrade (with help from all of you).
Should I focus on the 235/240 or is there another model that could be right for me?

On another note, I purchased an SPL meter last night. I'm still a newbie, so I have no idea what I'm doing... I read somewhere on the forum that you want to get the level to 75db...

When I calibrate my speakers using the receiver's test tone (fuzzy static), where do I measure from? If I were in my listening location, then with the receiver volume cranked way up to 40 (of 79), I would need to increase the speakers to +12 (max) to get to 75 db. To what level should I set my sub? (I just want everything to sound as good as it can until I start my upgrades, and get the knowledge necessary to set up my upgraded components properly).

All help is greatly appreciated.
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post #13 of 183
3/14/06 at 12:41pm
You want to use your spl meter from your "sweet spot" i.e. where you will be sitting most of the time and where you want the best sound to be. You should hold it at ear level slightly pointed towards your front speakers. Choose a speaker and play white noise from that speaker only (I would reccomend your center speaker). Set the individual speaker volume so it is at neutral (depends on your system but either at a 0 level or half way between your lowest and highest). Now use the master volume control on your receiver untill the white noise reads 75 dB on your spl meter. Now go through and using white noise that alternates around all speakers set the individual speaker levels till they all read 75 dB on the spl meter. Do not touch the master volume control during this time. This includes the sub although if you watch alot of action movies it is likely you will want to calibrate the sub several dB above everything else. With the sub feel free to play around some as it is not as important to have it equalized (especially if you do not listen to a lot of music on the system). Once done you have calibrated your speaker to play acurately at 10 dB below reference (more then loud enough for most people...but you can also calibrate at 85 dB which is reference level).
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post #14 of 183
3/14/06 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Thank you Jorge_Burrito.

Ok, it looks like I'm going with the following (in order of purchase):

L,R - Athena B1.2
C - Athena C1.2
Surround and Rears - Athena .5s
Sub - SVS PB10
Receiver - HK 240? (unless there's arguments for better options)

Ron Temple - Do you think the Pio (and which one) could be a better match after your recent experience? If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Five One Six - What do you mean when you say that the speakers sound "brighter"? After you mentioned that the Pio sounds brighter and Ron mentioned that the Pio "tamed" the brightness, I don't know what to think. Is it an issue of the room's dimensions?

If anyone out there has other options that are comparable/better than what I'm shooting for, please let me know. Anyone? Anyone? ...Bueller?
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post #15 of 183
3/14/06 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chancellormark View Post

Ok, it looks like I'm going with the following (in order of purchase):

L,R - Athena B1.2
C - Athena C1.2
Surround and Rears - Athena .5s
Sub - SVS PB10
Receiver - HK 240? (unless there's arguments for better options)

you might consider buying a refurbished H/K 235 instead of the 240. the 235 is the 2004 model, and is very similar to the 240 in terms of power and features. you can probably save yourself at least $100 this way. take a look at harman direct on ebay, they auction stuff off every day. the receiver comes with a 2 year warranty, and i could not find cosmetic damage when i bought one.

BTW...your proposed setup is identical to what i have now, except i've got the H/K 235. so i can tell you from experience...i started with a 780, and this combo absolutely smokes it. a bit more $$, but the returns in SQ and HT enjoyment are enormous
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post #16 of 183
3/14/06 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chancellormark View Post

Thank you Jorge_Burrito.

Ok, it looks like I'm going with the following (in order of purchase):

L,R - Athena B1.2
C - Athena C1.2
Surround and Rears - Athena .5s
Sub - SVS PB10
Receiver - HK 240? (unless there's arguments for better options)

Ron Temple - Do you think the Pio (and which one) could be a better match after your recent experience? If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

Five One Six - What do you mean when you say that the speakers sound "brighter"? After you mentioned that the Pio sounds brighter and Ron mentioned that the Pio "tamed" the brightness, I don't know what to think. Is it an issue of the room's dimensions?

If anyone out there has other options that are comparable/better than what I'm shooting for, please let me know. Anyone? Anyone? ...Bueller?

Good choices...my comments were just an aside to 516. We had previously discussed Athena's bright tweeters and his Pio. I opted for an HK235 and loved the sound. When I put in the 1015 and Eqd the speakers I noticed a different sound and the brightness of my Polks( which are pretty bright as well, but not as bright as the Athenas) seemed better integrated. However, the HK, in my room, is louder and punchier. Everyone's ears are different and I had been hearing my setup the same way for months. At least temporarily, it's different, I like it, and I'm going to play with it for awhile before I decide what to keep.

I think the refurb HK is the best bang for the buck, features, power and sound quality. Go the ebay route or www.harmanaudio.com.
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post #17 of 183
3/14/06 at 6:46pm
Thread Starter 
G Star, thanks for the advice on the refurb. Saving a little cash could be a very good thing right now... (seeing how I've already gone way over budget)

Do you have any recommendations on good deals on Athenas or the SVS sub? I don't have any issues purchasing online as long as the seller comes recommended.

thanks
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post #18 of 183
3/14/06 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chancellormark View Post

Do you have any recommendations on good deals on Athenas or the SVS sub? I don't have any issues purchasing online as long as the seller comes recommended.

i got my athena auditions when they were on closeout last year from audio advisor, and they were running some great deals. the new B1.2's/C1.2 are a little more money now, but still a great deal at $120pr and $140ea, respectively.

the point 5's are a little tougher....they seem to be rare commodoties these days. it looks like audio advisor has them in stock, but at $175/pr. i was lucky enough to grab a pair off ebay for $110 shippped, so do some looking around. onecall.com might have some in stock.

forget about any deals on the SVS, the best you're going to do is to be lucky enough to get a PB-10 in B-stock for about $50 less than a new one, but they don't last. check the SVS website routinely to see if one pops up. alternatively, you might have some luck on ebay or audiogon, but those are even more of a longshot, and will be used pieces. SVS only sells direct...no authorized outside dealers that i know of.
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post #19 of 183
3/15/06 at 12:38pm
Thread Starter 
Apparently, I'm not a very patient person...

This morning, I ordered the B 1.2's and C1.2 from Audio Advisor... and tried to order some point 5's from Amazon. The point 5's looked like a very good deal, but when I made my order it gave me a delivery date between 5/26 and 5/31... I hope that it's a mistake, but who knows.

After I get the speakers all set up, I'll make sure to come back to this forum and give my impressions... and post some pics of my new theater room.

If anyone reading this is in the market for an HTIB, only because they don't know their options, I highly recommend taking the time to ask and research... or else you'll risk having a nagging question mark in the back of your mind saying: "it sounds pretty good to me, but how good could it sound?"

Thanks to everyone who gave their opinions and recommendations.
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post #20 of 183
3/15/06 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chancellormark View Post

or else you'll risk having a nagging question mark in the back of your mind saying: "it sounds pretty good to me, but how good could it sound?"

ah, the eternal AVS question. we may never know the answer, but maybe therin lies the fun.
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post #21 of 183
3/24/06 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
I'm back to report on my recent upgrades... After hooking up my B1s and C1, I was amazed at the improvement immediately. The music on movies seemed much richer and the dialog was more crisp.

I was playing a movie downstairs and left the room to get something to drink, I heard something hit the ground and make a rolling sound. I thought, "crap! the cats knocked over something down there!!" I ran downstairs and saw that nothing was out of place and the crash was on the movie...

I'm looking forward to buying that SVS PB10 sub, the popular HK 235, and the point 5s for surrounds when I can find them. AVSforum strikes again.

I've read many posts where people are either bashing HTIBs or needlessly protecting them. I do not regret buying the Onkyo. I was intimidated by going the component route and this was my first venture into home theater. I'm sure that many people could purchase this HTIB and be very happy (my neighbor is one of these people and wants to by it from me after I upgrade the whole system). If I never found this forum, I would have been very satisfied with the Onkyo... However, I'm extremely happy with my upgrades and would like to thank all who contributed.
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post #22 of 183
3/24/06 at 2:52pm
Congrats Mark!


Now stop being PC, and just admit the Onkyo speakers failed miserably at movie dialog

Also, keep in mind that when you add those Point 5s as surrounds, you will have no mid-bass coming out of the rear channels.

After getting used to the lovely bass precense of those B1s, are you sure you want your rear speakers to sound like clock radios on the walls? Imagine watching a Vietnam movie, and the helicopters fly from the front to to the rear...
They pass over the front with this meaty THWUP-THWUP-THWUP sound, then as they fly over to the back they sound like: THIT-THIT-THIT

Move the B1s to the back ... and tell me that another pair back there wouldn't just make the system
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post #23 of 183
3/24/06 at 3:22pm
Thread Starter 
Darnit JohnR... I thought I was all set... just kidding.

Unfortunately my surrounds have to hang on walls, so I think I'm stuck with the point 5s... however, my rear surrounds can sit on bookshelves. Do you think it's worth it to put B1's back there? Do you have other suggestions than the point 5's for the sides?

After I buy that SVS sub, HK receiver, and surrounds, I need to get the hell out of this forum for at least a year.
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post #24 of 183
3/24/06 at 3:58pm
congrats on the new system man. if you get all those pieces you were talking about, you and i will have identical systems. john's right about the surrounds, but the point 5's do a respectable job. the H/K 235 allows you to set different cross-overs for each channel, so i've got my B1's/C1 crossed over at 80Hz and the surrounds crossed over at 100Hz. that alleviates some of those issues. you're really going to enjoy the added power and flexibility of that H/K.

and just wait 'till you get that PB-10....
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post #25 of 183
3/24/06 at 4:39pm
Nice going Mark...you're hooked for sure now. You'll be using the 235 as a pre/pro with monoblocks, moving your fronts to surround duty, picking up some F2.2s, scheming on an Ascend 340SE 7.2 system with dual Ultras...heck you'll have 2 grand into this w/i 8 mos., 5gs w/i 18mos...divorced in 3 years.

Enjoy AVS and your new hobby
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post #26 of 183
3/27/06 at 5:14pm
Thread Starter 
I just ordered the SVS PB10. Thank you and damn you all. :-)

My point 5 surrounds have shipping dates in late May. sigh...

At this rate, I'll be ordering the HK 235 by next week. I was very impressed with the Athenas from everyone's recommendation. I'll be back soon to post my impressions of the PB10.

G-Star, thanks for the info on the crossover. Once I get that HK, I may have more questions on that topic along with calibration.
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post #27 of 183
3/28/06 at 1:46pm
I'm glad I found this thread as I"m getting ready to make the jump to an upgrade pretty soon.

My first really HT started when we moved into our 1st house and I got a plasma for the living room. I bought the Onkyo 6.1 HTIB I think the 760 is the model. It's a few years old.

I've been happy but now we are moving to our new home and I want to upgrade since space is no longer a problem.

The speakers will be on stands so what do you suggest. Would this same setup work for me.

Once we get moved in and I can feel save bringing this up to the wife I'll begin the upgrade process. Very interested to hear how you like the subs.
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post #28 of 183
3/28/06 at 1:56pm
Certainly it will be a huge step up...another speaker to consider if you'd like to go floorstanders in front would be the Polk R30s, CSi25 center and R15 surrounds from Frys or Outpost.com. When on sale, they go for $80/pr, $70 and $40/pr. They are similar to the Athenas, perhaps not as bright...very good value speakers.
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post #29 of 183
3/28/06 at 2:21pm
I just noticed bestbuy.com had the athena's for about the same price as audio advisor. I might mosey on by there some day and see if they have any displays up.
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post #30 of 183
3/30/06 at 11:40am
I notice a lot of user opt for the F2.2 floorstanding athenas rather than the B1.2 bookeshelf speakers. Any reason to get one over another?
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