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Sex Pistols and Blondie in Rock Hall of Fame--Genesis and Yes are not

post #1 of 691
Thread Starter 
The shunning of progressive rock continues for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as they induct the most overrated "band" (and I use that term loosely) in the history of rock, the Sex Pistols, and another band that typified style over substance, Blondie, into the Rock hall but continue to ignore incredible musicians like Yes and Genesis and King Crimson. What a fraud. Led by Rolling Stone editor and confirmed prog rock hater Jan Wenner, the Rock hall has apparantly decided that progressive rock is not rock and roll. But how can you simply ignore a whole genre of music, a whole decade plus of radio airplay and sales domination by some of the most successful and influential bands in history? Unbelievable.

The Sex Pistols of course won't show up, acting as if they are still making some anti-establishment statement, when we all know the real reason they won't show is because then they'd have to get up and actually play, and that would once again confirm how they truly sucked as a band, and it would confirm that they really pulled the wool over everyone's eyes for a year or so.
post #2 of 691
I agree the Sex Pistols don't belong...they were a marketing gimmick. But Blondie deserves a place in the hall. They were more influential than you think...
post #3 of 691
Don't forget Rush, ELP and King Crimson.
post #4 of 691
Yes and Blondie should be there ...ELP was huge for awhile.

King Crimson wasn't a headliner back-in-the-day.
Although they did regularly open for the biggest of bands.

Wasn't Jann Wenner the guy that had a mid-life crisis and went nuts?
post #5 of 691
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is simply a marketing bonanza...IT's not about how influential but who sold the most records....
post #6 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

I agree the Sex Pistols don't belong...they were a marketing gimmick. But Blondie deserves a place in the hall. They were more influential than you think...

I don't particularly dislike Blondie--I could take them or leave them, but I don't think they rank up there with Talking Heads, The Clash, Television, Jonathan Richman etc. They morphed into whatever style was popular at the time, so I do dispute their influence.
post #7 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Crowley View Post

Don't forget Rush, ELP and King Crimson.

I think I did mention King Crimson. I could name 30 other prog bands that should be in the Hall before the Sex Pistols.
post #8 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is simply a marketing bonanza...IT's not about how influential but who sold the most records....

I disagree in part. Yes, its a marketing gimmick to some extent. Yes it SHOULD be about influential bands, and in terms of influence, few would argue that massive influence Yes, Genesis and King Crimson have had, collectively and individually. I disagree that its about who sold a lot of records, because The Sex Pistols didn't really sell that many records. It shouldn't just be about record sales (that would leave bands like Velvet Underground out), but you also cannot ignore sales either. The prog groups I mentioned had both influence and sales.
post #9 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

The Sex Pistols of course won't show up, acting as if they are still making some anti-establishment statement, when we all know the real reason they won't show is because then they'd have to get up and actually play, and that would once again confirm how they truly sucked as a band, and it would confirm that they really pulled the wool over everyone's eyes for a year or so.

I was listening to the radio today and there was some discussion of this and apparently to attend the R&R HOF awards there is something like a $20k a plate (or perhaps its per table) fee so that the family members of the nominees can attend and that had a lot to do with why the Pistols wanted no part of it. Also the whole thing is a joke with the Hall of Fame being in Cleveland but being run entirely out of New York. Why aren't they doing the inductions at the Hall itself?

I also think the major punk bands deserve their spot and despite only having one album there is no denying that the Pistols have continued to influence numerous artists for nearly 30 years, even if it only serves as their introduction to punk. I've always far preferred the Clash between the two and can name probably 100 other punk bands I'd rather listen to but both belong in the hall of fame.


Personally, I hate prog rock but I think key prog bands deserve their spot as well. If its a "Hall of Fame" any band that is influential to multiple generations of artists belongs in it. Yes and Genesis seem to fit that bill and should be no brainers.

As far as shafting goes - two words: Black Sabbath. I wouldn't go so far as to say they invented a genre but they practically wrote the book on metal and their two main lead singers also had pretty decent solo careers to put it modestly.

I would say the HoF is a complete joke but a few years ago some of my best friends got married in Cleveland and I took the afternoon before to visit the Hall and had a great time, so go figure.
post #10 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post

I was listening to the radio today and there was some discussion of this and apparently to attend the R&R HOF awards there is something like a $20k a plate (or perhaps its per table) fee so that the family members of the nominees can attend and that had a lot to do with why the Pistols wanted no part of it. Also the whole thing is a joke with the Hall of Fame being in Cleveland but being run entirely out of New York. Why aren't they doing the inductions at the Hall itself?

I also think the major punk bands deserve their spot and despite only having one album there is no denying that the Pistols have continued to influence numerous artists for nearly 30 years, even if it only serves as their introduction to punk. I've always far preferred the Clash between the two and can name probably 100 other punk bands I'd rather listen to but both belong in the hall of fame.


Personally, I hate prog rock but I think key prog bands deserve their spot as well. If its a "Hall of Fame" any band that is influential to multiple generations of artists belongs in it. Yes and Genesis seem to fit that bill and should be no brainers.

As far as shafting goes - two words: Black Sabbath. I wouldn't go so far as to say they invented a genre but they practically wrote the book on metal and their two main lead singers also had pretty decent solo careers to put it modestly.

I would say the HoF is a complete joke but a few years ago some of my best friends got married in Cleveland and I took the afternoon before to visit the Hall and had a great time, so go figure.

Black Sabbath is also being inducted this year, so they aren't shafted any longer. I'm not a Black Sabbath fan but they certainly have influenced an entire genre of music, so they belong.

Don't take my derision of the Sex Pistols as a slap on punk in general (despite what others may have you believe). While I certainly view progressive rock as a genre filled with many more talented musicians than punk, due in large part to the inherent punk ethic and its self imposed limitations, I have posted here that I am a fan of many bands that are punk and punk influenced (Ramones, Talking Heads, The Clash among the obvious, to Velvet influenced bands such as Sonic Youth, to Husker Du, Sugar etc), and many of those punk bands deserve to be in the Hall. I think unfortunately that the Sex Pistols got way too much press because they became a fashion statement more than a music group, and their alleged influence is vastly overstated and overrated. I bet that the number of punk or post punk bands that really listened to and were influenced by the MUSIC of the Sex Pistols is actually miniscule. Again, style over substance. They were a fashion statement, a political statement more than a band like The Who, who were in their time all about the music.
post #11 of 691
Certainly in terms of influence, Yes and Rush and King Crimson should be in there. Obviously prog rock isn't hot now, but neither is disco. But I can see how it wouldn't be considered rock and roll, since rock and roll is really about visceral effect, not intellectual appeal. I'd argue that some of Rush's and Yes' stuff is amazingly visceral, but most wouldn't agree.

The Sex Pistols, even if it was by accident, have been profoundly influential since they did their thing. Though it's hard to even see it sometimes in the music, there's a very thick line back from Green Day to The Sex Pistols.

I agree that Black Sabbath practically invented the entire metal genre, which has remained a huge thing amongst hormonally inflamed young men ever since. Get the perm, strap on the cucumber, and slam out some power chords. It's worked for decades.
post #12 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post

I was listening to the radio today and there was some discussion of this and apparently to attend the R&R HOF awards there is something like a $20k a plate (or perhaps its per table) fee so that the family members of the nominees can attend and that had a lot to do with why the Pistols wanted no part of it. Also the whole thing is a joke with the Hall of Fame being in Cleveland but being run entirely out of New York. Why aren't they doing the inductions at the Hall itself?

I also think the major punk bands deserve their spot and despite only having one album there is no denying that the Pistols have continued to influence numerous artists for nearly 30 years, even if it only serves as their introduction to punk. I've always far preferred the Clash between the two and can name probably 100 other punk bands I'd rather listen to but both belong in the hall of fame.


Personally, I hate prog rock but I think key prog bands deserve their spot as well. If its a "Hall of Fame" any band that is influential to multiple generations of artists belongs in it. Yes and Genesis seem to fit that bill and should be no brainers.

As far as shafting goes - two words: Black Sabbath. I wouldn't go so far as to say they invented a genre but they practically wrote the book on metal and their two main lead singers also had pretty decent solo careers to put it modestly.

I would say the HoF is a complete joke but a few years ago some of my best friends got married in Cleveland and I took the afternoon before to visit the Hall and had a great time, so go figure.

Just a note: in the book "Bang Your Head. The rise and fall of heavy metal" It was said that the RRHOF did want to induct Sabbath, but Ozzy would have nothing to do with it saying that the people who vote you in never bought Sabbath record or went to a single Black Sabbath concert so that makes the whole thing a farce.
post #13 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

Certainly in terms of influence, Yes and Rush and King Crimson should be in there. Obviously prog rock isn't hot now, but neither is disco. But I can see how it wouldn't be considered rock and roll, since rock and roll is really about visceral effect, not intellectual appeal. I'd argue that some of Rush's and Yes' stuff is amazingly visceral, but most wouldn't agree.

The Sex Pistols, even if it was by accident, have been profoundly influential since they did their thing. Though it's hard to even see it sometimes in the music, there's a very thick line back from Green Day to The Sex Pistols.

I agree that Black Sabbath practically invented the entire metal genre, which has remained a huge thing amongst hormonally inflamed young men ever since. Get the perm, strap on the cucumber, and slam out some power chords. It's worked for decades.

I would trace Green Day back more to The Ramones than the Sex Pistols, much more of a bubblegum punk-pop band.
And I would argue that a completely underrated band like Roxy Music has been much more influential musically on all kinds of bands, including punk, than the Sex Pistols could ever dream of being. On top of that, how much respect can you have for a band that basically admitted they sounded like crap and really couldn't play a lick? How many of you out there frequently keep Sex Pistols music in your cd player? I thought so.
post #14 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

Black Sabbath is also being inducted this year, so they aren't shafted any longer. I'm not a Black Sabbath fan but they certainly have influenced an entire genre of music, so they belong.

You're right. The guy on the radio brought them up so I assumed (wrongly) that they had once again been given the shaft.

I do agree that the Pistols were fashion over function, they were afterall crafted in large part thanks to Malcom McClaren's interest in selling bondage wear, but they also did have a number of catchy songs for one album's worth of material. By accident or design they were a key part of launching something that was much larger than they were themselves.

I'd also certainly agree that prog rock musicians are far more talented musically than the majority of punk acts but I also confess that I prefer simple sing along music to sweeping musical epics. Its just a personal taste thing but its also why art is so hard to judge across genres. I think ultimately the rock hall will go through a major identity crisis over the next 20 something years when the majority of relevant musical acts coming through won't be "rock and roll" acts.
post #15 of 691
The Sex Pistols, The Clash and the Ramones are the most over rated bands in rock history. No arguing here, it's just my opinion
post #16 of 691
How can three bands that have as many detractors as die-hard devotees be the most overrated bands in history? The most overrated band in history is without a doubt The Beatles, not because they weren't great but because anyone who claims they were "the greatest" will likely go unchallenged.
post #17 of 691
Quote:


On top of that, how much respect can you have for a band that basically admitted they sounded like crap and really couldn't play a lick?

You have to put it in perspective, in that that was kind of the point. It was a reaction to corporate rock acts that were enormous, bloated, and which had drifted close to Vegas in many ways than to the roots of rock and roll. So the whole point was to be anti-craft, and all about pure visceral impact and anti-establishment attitude.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up listening to The Eagles and Steely Dan and Alice Cooper and David Bowie, and love some of their stuff. But they'd drifted far from the roots of rock and roll in the 70s. Punk was about spitting at all that mega-corporate rock act thing, and going the other direction. As various people have said, Eddie Van Halen being the one I happen to remember off hand, there is an ~10 year cycle where the current music become more processed and more corporate and more bloated and slick, and then it all breaks back down and starts over, and then builds back up to the same old s!@t.
post #18 of 691
In terms of influence, The Beatles are about it, with perhaps Elvis having somewhat more in some ways. The Beatles basically created the modern, self contained, rock band. Their influence is tremendous and it would be hard to claim otherwise, even if you don't like them personally.
post #19 of 691
It was more food for thought, fuel for the fire and commentary on what "overrated" actually means than anything else.

Personally I do prefer Elvis and a number of 50s rock and roll acts (and quite frankly the Stones) to the Beatles but that's really beside the point.
post #20 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by David James View Post

The Sex Pistols, The Clash and the Ramones are the most over rated bands in rock history. No arguing here, it's just my opinion


Thats funny, those are 3 of my favorite punk bands of all time. I'm 38 and still listen to and go to old school punk shows. TSOL and 45 Grave just recently. To each their own I guess.

muncey
post #21 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

In terms of influence, The Beatles are about it, with perhaps Elvis having somewhat more in some ways. The Beatles basically created the modern, self contained, rock band. Their influence is tremendous and it would be hard to claim otherwise, even if you don't like them personally.


Absolutely. Bands like U2 play within the framework. The Beatles... Created the framework.
post #22 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

I would trace Green Day back more to The Ramones than the Sex Pistols, much more of a bubblegum punk-pop band.
And I would argue that a completely underrated band like Roxy Music has been much more influential musically on all kinds of bands, including punk, than the Sex Pistols could ever dream of being. On top of that, how much respect can you have for a band that basically admitted they sounded like crap and really couldn't play a lick? How many of you out there frequently keep Sex Pistols music in your cd player? I thought so.


I bought the Sex Pistols LP when it first came out. I thought it was some of the most horrible sounding trash I'd ever heard. And my poor turntable OD'd from a dirty needle.
post #23 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

How many of you out there frequently keep Sex Pistols music in your cd player?

Never Mind the Bollocks is often heard in my house. It's one of my favorite albums.

Blondie? I bought Parallel Lines when it came out; I was and am underwhelmed. They were a good singles band, but I don't think they deserve the HoF. Roxy Music was much more influential, and in terms of the New York New Wave Scene, Television, Jonathan Richman (Modern Lovers), Richard Hell, Patti Smith (is she in the HoF?) and Talking Heads were much more influential and more deserving of HoF status.

As far as progressive, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Rush and Genesis are being shafted. I also think that Jethro Tull is worthy, but their Grammy debacle helps to hurt them as well.
post #24 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post

As far as progressive, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Rush and Genesis are being shafted. I also think that Jethro Tull is worthy, but their Grammy debacle helps to hurt them as well.

I think it's safe to say that ELP had more talent in their hair clippings than the Sex Pistols did in there entire bodies. So yes, ELP is getting royaly shafted. Although, I do believe that Carl Palmer's $50K (and that was back when $50K was a lot of money) stainless steel custom-built drum set is displayed there. Which is now actually owned by Ringo Starr.
post #25 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

I think it's safe to say that ELP had more talent in their hair clippings than the Sex Pistols did in there entire bodies. So yes, ELP is getting royaly shafted.

It's tough to compare Progressive and Punk. Rock 'n Roll originally grew as Jazz became more technically complex to play-- Rock 'n Roll was a music anyone could play. Similarly, the Punk sub-genre grew out of a dissatisfaction with the growing technical complexity of the Progressive sub-genre-- it was again about music anyone could play.
post #26 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post

It's tough to compare Progressive and Punk. Rock 'n Roll originally grew as Jazz became more technically complex to play-- Rock 'n Roll was a music anyone could play. Similarly, the Punk sub-genre grew out of a dissatisfaction with the growing technical complexity of the Progressive sub-genre-- it was again about music anyone could play.

That's true. Plus when you're talking about comparing music, it's subject to both taste and familiararity. Although I do think that basic talent level is a bit more quantifiable.
post #27 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

I would trace Green Day back more to The Ramones than the Sex Pistols, much more of a bubblegum punk-pop band.
And I would argue that a completely underrated band like Roxy Music has been much more influential musically on all kinds of bands, including punk, than the Sex Pistols could ever dream of being. On top of that, how much respect can you have for a band that basically admitted they sounded like crap and really couldn't play a lick? How many of you out there frequently keep Sex Pistols music in your cd player? I thought so.

Agreed. Greed Day is far more influenced by the Ramones.

The Ramones were by far the most influential and far reaching of the early punk bands. They showed that anyone with a passion can pick up an instrument and start making music. It demystified the music business. Their first tour of England directly inspired the members of The Clash, The Damned, The Sex Pistols, Siouxsie & the Banshees, and many more...kids who had a copy of their debut album then saw them play when they came through.

But if The Ramones were the fathers of Punk, it was Iggy & the Stooges, New York Dolls, and The MC5 who were the grandfathers. They weren't as directly influential, at least not initially, but they very much laid the foundation. All of those bands, though, (particularly New York Dolls) still held on to the "performance" part of the game...where The Ramones came out with a whole different attitude.
post #28 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

That's true. Plus when you're talking about comparing music, it's subject to both taste and familiararity. Although I do think that basic talent level is a bit more quantifiable.

Are you saying that Sid Vicious is (was) not as good a bass player than Greg Lake?
post #29 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post

How can three bands that have as many detractors as die-hard devotees be the most overrated bands in history? The most overrated band in history is without a doubt The Beatles, not because they weren't great but because anyone who claims they were "the greatest" will likely go unchallenged.

I don't think any rational person who knows anything about rock music could argue against the fact that the Beatles are the most influential rock group in music history, whether you like to listen to them or not. The Beatles have influenced and are still influencing any kid that picks up a guitar and wants to play rock and roll, or sits down and starts writing a rock or pop song. Their influence is virtually incalculable, and thus they can NEVER be overrated because if anything, they will always be underrated by those that can't, don't or won't understand or appreciate their vast influence.
post #30 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

Agreed. Greed Day is far more influenced by the Ramones.

The Ramones were by far the most influential and far reaching of the early punk bands. They showed that anyone with a passion can pick up an instrument and start making music. It demystified the music business. Their first tour of England directly inspired the members of The Clash, The Damned, The Sex Pistols, Siouxsie & the Banshees, and many more...kids who had a copy of their debut album then saw them play when they came through.

But if The Ramones were the fathers of Punk, it was Iggy & the Stooges, New York Dolls, and The MC5 who were the grandfathers. They weren't as directly influential, at least not initially, but they very much laid the foundation. All of those bands, though, (particularly New York Dolls) still held on to the "performance" part of the game...where The Ramones came out with a whole different attitude.

I agree for the most part, although I think even the Ramones preceded Iggy and the Stooges by a few years didn't they? I remember when I first heard Beat the Brat at a party. I had this friend who played that over and over. I admit at first, being a serious connosiuer(sp) of bands I was discovering like Genesis, Yes and ELP at age 15, I pretty much dismissed the Ramones as kind of a one-trick joke. And of course, to some extent that was the point. I only later appreciated the back to basics influence they had, althought I always did like the clean guitar sound they had, as opposed to some later punk/thrash bands that ended up simply playing unlistenable sludge. And somewhat ironically maybe for some, that early Beatles simple guitar rock sound was a blueprint for much of what the Ramones did.

I just picked up a fascinating DVD called Punk on the Tomorrow Show with Tom Snyder. I haven't gotten all the way through it, but the parts I have seen are precious. First, rarely do you get to see live video of punk bands on TV. Have to hand it to Snyder, he had the foresight to put this on--The Damned, Iggy, Ramones, Patty Smith, and an absolutely hilarious and priceless interview with the Sex Pistols where Snyder is trying to understand their "anti-music" message (this was a few years after the Sex Pistols broke and Johnny Rotten had formed Public Image Ltd), and Rotten is being an absolutely uncooperative brat--the exchanges are priceless. The DVD has both the full interviews and live clips. Its kind of funny watching the somewhat unhip but trying to be hip Snyder question Paul Weller and Iggy etc on punk, which clearly mystifies Snyder. I highly recommend this DVD to anyone interested in punk rock or music history--this is the kind of stuff we need to see more of.

BTW, I also have a few MC5 albums and talk about some raw, kick ass rock, there is no doubt they influenced a lot of punk bands.

Re The New York Dolls, I see them as kind of posers who were trying to get in on the glam scene while playing more basic rock, but they seem far more interested in wearing makeup for shock value than actually trying to be good at music. There are a few clips of them on stuff like those Whiste Test DVDs and I find their music ability quite lame compared to the Ramones.

Every good prog rocker knows that the most creative use of facial makeup and costumes, long before Kiss, was none other than Peter Gabriel. Talk about your fascinating characters and costumes circa 1972-73.
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