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Sex Pistols and Blondie in Rock Hall of Fame--Genesis and Yes are not - Page 3

post #61 of 691
OK - I heard about this thread and had to jump in with my own jerky comments. First off, I'll proudly say The Beatles weren't "The Greatest" (although the Hamburg stuff showed some promise that rather quickly went away). I am not going to attempt to contribute my own punk influence history, but y'all should probably listen to Gecko - he certainly seems to get it.

Re: Sex Pistols - first off, some of you are buying Malcolm McLaren's crap - the Sex Pistols were not originally a gimmick that he master-planned, despite the story told in Swindle (the movie - btw, Swindle has plenty of stuff that was not previously released on/in it). He got the idea to pull together a band after he went around with (aka. babysat) the NY Dolls for a period of time in the US. He thought - hey, here's something I could get to really take off in the UK, but he sort of forced the issue as events were unrolling - beginning with the Pistols (rather, Malcolm) getting paid for them to NOT play. He was a master at taking credit for things that occured, and The Pistols were really good at making things "occur" without even trying. It was pretty easy then, given the tenor of the times. The whole thing would really be pretty funny overall if Malcolm had filtered some of that free money down to them. Someone (gecko, possibly - I only scanned this thread) mentioned the Ramones influencing The Pistols - very true - John Lydon (Rotten) snuck into a show on their first UK tour and felt that if they could do it, he could. While I don't agree with the wording used in their letter, re the HOF induction (it was pretty stupid), I agree with the sentiment. I think the induction essentially does them a disservice. This coming from someone who's gotta have listened to Bollocks hundreds of times over the decades I've been listening to/following punk - seems pathetic to me to be able to say decades now, but that's what it is...

And I think a lot of you are missing the point of what punk was originally - and still can be. To even mention Green Day kind of proves that. Just because you can buy your Green Day or Good Charlotte, etc. CD at Hot Topic does not make them punk (Heh). Green Day and their ilk is barely related to punk. Lest you've forgotten - or don't know - early on, Green Day would double-book shows, then figure out which one would have an A&R guy there, or which one was going to pay them more, and play that one. I can personally assure you that there's reasons beyond "going to college" that the original drummer left...

As far as The Ramones go, yes, they are most known for 3 chord punk rock (I prefer one less chord whenever possible myself), but don't forget they went beyond that at times. The first album is really about short, fast simple music. And an album that a dj wouldn't be able to get out of, due to the short dead wax between tracks. Match that up with the latest Rush or Black Sabbath or any other number of bands at the time and you start to get the picture. Although they were "playing" live for quite some time before that first album. And it wasn't always just 3 chord - you have slightly later stuff like Weasel Face and Endless Vacation. Those are too fast for me to even count - uh, well, actually, I don't even care to try.

A few people have brought up "My Generation" - frankly, to me, the only thing worth ever listening to from The Who is the My Generation import - notoriously under-produced, and while kind of boring at times, certainly is a precedent to what punk moved to. And yes, The Stooges (with Iggy) started well before The Ramones. Although Iggy wasn't diving into broken glass a whole lot until around the time of The Ramones.

However, people like to harken back to the big names when talking about later influences - let's not forget the bands that have been influenced by the hundreds (or more) Killed By Death - type bands that were there in the early days (who were similarly influenced by bands like the Pistols, The Ramones, The Dead Boys, The Damned, The Germs, The Weirdos, The Dils, and numerous other) who have *since* influenced others. This is why this whole "who's influenced by whom" thing can get out of hand.

Greyskies: one thing to remember with "The Filthy Lucre Tour" naming is that the phrase "Filthy Lucre" originated from the media originally in regards to the aforementioned getting paid to not play (although it was not meant to be complimentary). Also, I realize you were kidding, but yeah, Sid Vicious wasn't that great at bass - of course, this coming from someone who is good friends with someone who refers to himself as a "bass holder," but what did that matter (rhetorical question)? He was picked up after Glen Matlock left because he jumped around at Pistols shows and was just a bit of violent, which at that point, fit perfectly into what The Pistols were becoming - particularly in Malcolm's eyes at that time. Partly known for being kicked out of Siouxsie and the Banshees (where he briefly drummed) and for being in Jah Wobble's The Flowers of Romance before that (which eventually became Lydon's PIL), he was also known for being at pretty much all of The Pistols shows as well as being friends with Johnny.

And what does any of this matter in regards to the "esteemed" Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame? Why would anyone even care to be in it, except for reasons of pure vanity? Although, I am sure Green Day would be excited to be inducted.

I did kind of chuckle at the reverence Yes has received in this thread. Yep, nothing better than "Don't Kill Whales - Dig It, Dig It." And yeah, I would agree that the HOF is basically a sham and really doesn't mean anything. You can still get your Yes CD's - should you get any enjoyment from them in the first place, would you get more enjoyment from them if Rick Wakeman et al. were inducted into the HOF? Maybe, but if so, I guess I just don't understand that...
post #62 of 691
wow, lurch, great post. I've never cared too much for punk but after reading your post I've got a better understanding of why others do. You express your passion and knowledge very clearly=thank you.
post #63 of 691
So much for my "differing point of view", you sure put me in my place squonk.
post #64 of 691
Okay, a couple of people have brought up why we even care who's in the R&RHOF. The fact is, it's an honor to be inducted. But it makes the HOF look like a big joke when acts like the Sex Pistols are inducted, and other great acts like ELP have been ignored. Especially since ELP was one of the most innovative bands of the 70's. In fact, if I had to pick just two bands as the most innovative of the 70's, it would be ELP and Pink Floyd. So to see a joke band like the Sex Pistols inducted, who were more-famous-than-listened-to, makes me just simply want to laugh at them, and say they really need to lay off of the drugs.
post #65 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutgar View Post

So to see a joke band like the Sex Pistols inducted, who were more-famous-than-listened-to, makes me just simply want to laugh at them, and say they really need to lay off of the drugs.

I had some fun yesterday picking on the Sex Pistols, but like I said in my first post in this thread-- Never Mind the Bollocks is often played in my house, and I firmly believe that it's one of the greatest rock albums ever recorded.
post #66 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob McLaughlin View Post

So much for my "differing point of view", you sure put me in my place squonk.

Its not about trying to put someone in their place. Its about accepting that people may want to discuss something and not trying to muzzle a discussion. If you aren't interested, read another thread. No one has a gun to your head.
post #67 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post


I did kind of chuckle at the reverence Yes has received in this thread. Yep, nothing better than "Don't Kill Whales - Dig It, Dig It."


If that's the extent of your knowledge of Yes, then you obviously need to educate yourself a little more on progressive rock.
The bottom line is that while ultimately in terms of what I listen to it doesn't matter at all whether the Sex Pistols are in the Hall and Yes is not, since they do have the honor and since people do take an interest in it, and since people are influenced by this type of honor, rightly or wrongly, it is patently absurd that a band that put one album out who admit themselves they couldn't play a lick and the whole enterprise was somewhat of a joke is in, yet a band with more musical talent and knowledge in their pinkie fingers, who have a 35 year career and dozens of albums, including some of the seminal albums that define a whole genre of rock music is not in. And the reason is simply based on the music bias' of a few people like Jan Wenner who runs the thing.

There are far more people chuckling that the Sex Pistols are Rock and Roll Hall of Famers than would be if Yes were inducted. Including the Sex Pistols themselves.
post #68 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

wow, lurch, great post. I've never cared too much for punk but after reading your post I've got a better understanding of why others do. You express your passion and knowledge very clearly=thank you.

I agree. Great post.

For those interested, here are a few DVD's worth checking out. None are perfect, but taken as a whole they present a pretty good look at the era, the music, and the bands. There is some fantastic archival footage, interviews, etc. strewn about these discs:

Punk - Attitude
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

Punk: Early Years
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

The Filth and the Fury - A Sex Pistols Film
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130
(Note: while much of this film is revisionist in nature, there is plenty of great archival footage and interviews, and enough they got "right" to make it worth a look.)

End of the Century - The Story of the Ramones
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

The Clash - Westway to the World
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

(Here are a couple from the second wave - early 80's)

X (The Band) - The Unheard Music
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

Another State of Mind
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

The Decline of Western Civilization (the first one)
This appears to be out of print? May have to find a copy on ebay.

There are other DVD's, to be sure, but these will give anyone a good overview (and some great music.) Having been a pre-pubescent Punk during the first wave in the late 70's, these DVD's capture the times pretty well.

Additionally, here are some movies that aren't about "punk" per se, but very much capture the social climate of the times, and help explain how the punk movment took off and resonated with the youth of the day:

Over the Edge (1979)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130
(Seriously, if you haven't seen this movie, rent or buy it now. This is one of the best teen-angst movies of all time. Shot in 1979, and featuring a young Matt Dillon in his first ever film role, the movie perfectly captures the late 70's move to suburbia, and it's a great time-capsule of the times...The movie shows what happens when a new housing community is built miles from town, complete with a tennis club and other niceties for the middle class parents...but they completely forget about the kids. Plans for a bowling alley and movie theater are put on hold when an out of state developer wants the land for something else. The one place the kids have to hang out...a rec center...is closed due to underage drinking and pot smoking. This movie captures the spirit and feelings of late 70's youth very well, and shows exactly how and why the punk movement was able to take hold on a large part of that generation.)

Times Square (1980)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130
(Much more of a "hollywood" film, trying to tap into the growing punk movement...but very much worth a look. I saw this in the early 80's, and loved it. Bought the DVD last year, and still loved it. The soundtrack is *phenominal*, and the movie does a decent job of portraying the decay of late 70's New York City and it's disafected youth.)

Suburbia (1983)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130
(Directed by Penelope Spheeris, who directed Decline of Western Civilization, this movie is about a group of runaways and orphans. It's a very good movie.)
post #69 of 691
Thread Starter 
I would add that Tomorrow Show with Tom Snyder Punk DVD I mentioned previously is a fascinating interview and live performance look at punk as it appeared on network TV. I also have the Letts DVD Punk Attitude and the Ramones and Clash DVDs.
post #70 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

A few people have brought up "My Generation" - frankly, to me, the only thing worth ever listening to from The Who is the My Generation import - notoriously under-produced, and while kind of boring at times, certainly is a precedent to what punk moved to.


So you are also dismissing virtually the entire ouput of one of the greatest bands ever? Including Who's Next? Seriously?
post #71 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

This movie captures the spirit and feelings of late 70's youth very well, and shows exactly how and why the punk movement was able to take hold on a large part of that generation.)

A more interesting question would be why the punk movement came and went so quickly and never really took root in the US as it did in Europe. Everyone gets rebellion, and every generation has their form of it. But why did punk so easily degenerate into the new wave fluff synth pop of the 80s and get drowned out by the disco explosion of the late 70s? Sure, it stayed underground and many bands in various forms kept at it without commercial success, but as a social phenomenon it died a rather quick death, which in light of the economic depression of the early 80s and the administration of Reagan you would think the climate would have been ripe for a much bigger punk explosion.
post #72 of 691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

First off, I'll proudly say The Beatles weren't "The Greatest" (although the Hamburg stuff showed some promise that rather quickly went away).


quickly went away? Huh?
post #73 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

A more interesting question would be why the punk movement came and went so quickly and never really took root in the US as it did in Europe. Everyone gets rebellion, and every generation has their form of it. But why did punk so easily degenerate into the new wave fluff synth pop of the 80s and get drowned out by the disco explosion of the late 70s? Sure, it stayed underground and many bands in various forms kept at it without commercial success, but as a social phenomenon it died a rather quick death, which in light of the economic depression of the early 80s and the administration of Reagan you would think the climate would have been ripe for a much bigger punk explosion.

The US (save the infamous NY bankrupcy) was not as economically depressed as the UK. The widespread youth nihilism that begot the punk explosion in the UK was not endemic to the US and so punk did not achieve widespread popularity in the US until it manifested itself as "grunge" in the early 90s.

But why did 70s punk degenerate? Some of the answer is in the maturation of the musicians-- The Clash embraced reggae, Joy Division embraced synths-- as the musician continues to play, he plays better and naturally, he wants to put that into his music. And if he doesn't, each record sounds like the last.
post #74 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

A more interesting question would be why the punk movement came and went so quickly and never really took root in the US as it did in Europe. Everyone gets rebellion, and every generation has their form of it. But why did punk so easily degenerate into the new wave fluff synth pop of the 80s and get drowned out by the disco explosion of the late 70s? Sure, it stayed underground and many bands in various forms kept at it without commercial success, but as a social phenomenon it died a rather quick death, which in light of the economic depression of the early 80s and the administration of Reagan you would think the climate would have been ripe for a much bigger punk explosion.

It didn't come and go...

It was very much alive all throughout the Reagan years. The LA punk scene, in particular, flourished in the 80's. Bands like X, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Descendents, Social Distortion, The Germs, J.F.A, Dead Kennedy's, and many many more helped fuel the fire for another decade or so.

The "New Wave" stuff, initially, was the "New Wave of Punk", and had much of the same attituted, but with a different style of music. The synth-pop stuff was NOT "New Wave." That's a common misnomer.

Having been in high school in the early/mid 80's, and college until the early 90's, I can tell you without question that punk as a social phenomenon was alive and well. It had become a bit commercial by the end of the 80's, but up until about '87/'88, it was very much alive and real. Watch "Decline of Western Civilazion" for a good look at the 80's LA punk scene. Better yet, see if you can dig up the album covers and show flyers of so many of those bands...they tended to be very political in nature.

BTW, I did not grow up in LA, but very much felt the effects of the punk scene where I was. And remember, "skateboarding is not a crime."
post #75 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post

The US (save the infamous NY bankrupcy) was not as economically depressed as the UK. The widespread youth nihilism that begot the punk explosion in the UK was not endemic to the US and so punk did not achieve widespread popularity in the US until it manifested itself as "grunge" in the early 90s.

Not so fast...The late 70's in the US had rampant "stagflation" (high inflation coupled with an anemically slow economy), high unemployment rates, and a severe gas crisis. Remember the "A and B" days? Gas lines two blocks long?
post #76 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

It was very much alive all throughout the Reagan years. The LA punk scene, in particular, flourished in the 80's. Bands like X, Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Descendents, Social Distortion, The Germs, J.F.A, Dead Kennedy's, and many many more helped fuel the fire for another decade or so.

It was still niche in the US, not mainstream. Remember, G_d Save the Queen hit no. 1 on the UK charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

Not so fast...The late 70's in the US had rampant "stagflation" (high inflation coupled with an anemically slow economy), high unemployment rates, and a severe gas crisis. Remember the "A and B" days? Gas lines two blocks long?

Even though I was only in junior high, I remember it. And each car in line had 3/4 of a tank already. But the economic situation in the US was still nothing compared to the UK.
post #77 of 691
The lines were long because we still had the money to afford gas.
It was hard times but nothing compared to what GB was like at the time.
post #78 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

I would add that Tomorrow Show with Tom Snyder Punk DVD I mentioned previously is a fascinating interview and live performance look at punk as it appeared on network TV. I also have the Letts DVD Punk Attitude and the Ramones and Clash DVDs.

I meant to add that one...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...-1220826?n=130
post #79 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post

It was still niche in the US, not mainstream. Remember, G_d Save the Queen hit no. 1 on the UK charts.


Even though I was only in junior high, I remember it. And each car in line had 3/4 of a tank already. But the economic situation in the US was still nothing compared to the UK.

It may have not been mainstream *radio*, but it was very widespread and in every corner of the US.

And, yes, economically the UK was worse off than the US...but the US wasn't exactly peaches.

Add to that the self-indulgant behavior of many adults during the mid-late 70's, how family life began to suffer, and the largest move to suburbia since the 50's...and you get a good idea of how disaffected kids in the US were during that time.
post #80 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post

It may have not been mainstream *radio*, but it was very widespread and in every corner of the US.

And, yes, economically the UK was worse off than the US...but the US wasn't exactly peaches.

Add to that the self-indulgant behavior of many adults during the mid-late 70's, how family life began to suffer, and the largest move to suburbia since the 50's...and you get a good idea of how disaffected kids in the US were during that time.

Which is probably why I started listening to it in the 80s.
post #81 of 691
I certainly appreciate the punk thing, and like a lot of it. But bands like Yes or King Crimson or Rush created music that showed where the popular music genre can go, of a level of complexity that stands up against classical or jazz levels of technical and musical capabilities. I'm all for a few kids strapping it on and doing primal scream therapy over power chords, and it's created some great music. But the best progressive rock bands speak to the other side of the brain, and it's just kind of unfortunate that more people don't like to have both hemispheres equally massaged.
post #82 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

First off, I'll proudly say The Beatles weren't "The Greatest" (although the Hamburg stuff showed some promise that rather quickly went away)

The hamburg stuff was primarily the Beatles doing cover versions of songs from the 50's and early 60's not sure what you mean by this?

The Beatles whether you like them or not are generally considered the most influential group in history.
They also have the greatest record sales in history.

I would be suprised if there is another entertainment act in our lifetime that equals the impact the Beatles had on the world.

Long live John, Paul, George and Ringo
post #83 of 691
Previously I listed some movies, now it's time for CD's. I've narrowed it down to a single box set. For those wanting to get a broad overview of the various types of punk being created in the 70's, look no further than:

No Thanks! The '70s Punk Rebellion [BOX SET] (Rhino Records)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=glance&n=5174

This is a *great* box set, and comes with a terrific companion booklet. While impossible to include EVERY band, this set contains a great cross-section. The big notable exception is the lack of Sex Pistols (it was a licensing thing...) Pick up "Never Mind the Bollocks" and you're all set.

You could buy this box set and leave it at that, getting a great mix of tunes from the big name bands (Clash, Ramones, etc.), and from lesser known to the masses (X-Ray Specs, Adverts, etc.) Or, you could use this as a starting point, picking up individual CD's of the bands you really liked. Or, like some of us, this box set fills in a few small holes, but otherwise all of this music already exists in our collection on either vinyl or CD...but was worth the purchase for the booklet and the few hard to find gems we were having trouble locating.

Enjoy!

Here's the band/song list:

Quote:


Disc: 1
1. Blitzkrieg Bop - Ramones
2. White Riot - The Clash
3. Heart Of The City - Nick Lowe
4. Boredom - Buzzcocks featuring Howard Devoto
5. (I'm) Stranded - The Saints
6. Neat Neat Neat - The Damned
7. In The City - The Jam
8. Final Solution - Pere Ubu
9. Roadrunner - The Modern Lovers
10. Little Johnny Jewel - Television
11. One Chord Wonders - The Adverts
12. Born To Lose - The Heartbreakers
13. Search And Destroy - Iggy & The Stooges
14. Let Me Dream If I Want To (Amphetamine Blues) - Mink DeVille
15. Oh Bondage Up Yours! - X-Ray Spex
16. 1 2 X U - Wire
17. Blank Generation - Richard Hell & The Voidoids
18. (Get A) Grip (On Yourself) - The Stranglers
19. Cherry Bomb - The Runaways
20. Personality Crisis - New York Dolls
21. Teenage Depression - Eddie & The Hot Rods
22. Two Tub Man - The Dictators
23. Hey Joe (Version) - Patti Smith
24. Your Generation - Generation X

Disc: 2
1. Lust For Life - Iggy Pop
2. Gary Gilmore's Eyes - The Adverts
3. Satday Night In The City Of The Dead - Ultravox!
4. What Do I Get? - Buzzcocks
5. X Offender - Blondie
6. Lookin' After No. 1 - The Boomtown Rats
7. Don't Dictate - Penetration
8. Bingo Master - The Fall
9. Free Money - Patti Smith
10. The Modern World - The Jam
11. Chinese Rocks - The Heartbreakers
12. New Rose - The Damned
13. Ambition - Subway Sect
14. See No Evil - Television
15. Suspect Device - Stiff Little Fingers
16. Mannequin - Wire
17. Baby Baby - The Vibrators
18. Love Comes In Spurts - Richard Hell & The Voidoids
19. First Time - The Boys
20. Sonic Reducer - Dead Boys
21. Shot By Both Sides - Magazine
22. Mystery Dance - Elvis Costello
23. Trash - New York Dolls
24. The Day The World Turned Day-Glo - X-Ray Spex
25. Do Anything You Wanna Do - Eddie & The Hot Rods

Disc: 3
1. Ready Steady Go - Generation X
2. Teenage Kicks - The Undertones
3. Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll - Ian Dury
4. Ever Fallen In Love (With Someone You Shouldn't've?) - Buzzcocks
5. Rocket U.S.A. - Suicide
6. Mongoloid - Devo
7. Homicide - 999
8. Mr. Big - The Dils
9. Warsaw - Joy Division
10. Where Were You? - The Mekons
11. Lexicon Devil - The Germs
12. (My Baby Does) Good Sculptures - The Rezillos
13. The Wait - The Pretenders
14. We Got The Neutron Bomb - The Weirdos
15. Pablo Picasso - The Modern Lovers
16. Action Time Vision - Alternative TV
17. 2-4-6-8 Motorway - Tom Robinson Band
18. We Are The One - The Avengers
19. Borstal Breakout - Sham 69
20. Wasted - Black Flag
21. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - Ramones
22. I Love Livin In The City - Fear
23. She's So Modern - The Boomtown Rats
24. Ghosts Of Princes In Towers - Rich Kids
25. We're Desperate - X
26. You Drive Me Ape (You Big Gorilla) - The Dickies
27. Dancing The Night Away - The Motors

Disc: 4
1. Hong Kong Garden - Siouxsie & The Banshees
2. Hanging On The Telephone - Blondie
3. Top Of The Pops - The Rezillos
4. Adult Books - X
5. The Sound Of The Suburbs - The Members
6. California =DCber Alles - Dead Kennedys
7. Another Girl, Another Planet - The Only Ones
8. (I Want To Be An) Anglepoise Lamp - The Soft Boys
9. Radio, Radio - Elvis Costello & The Attractions
10. Typical Girls - The Slits
11. Human Fly - The Cramps
12. Psycho Killer - Talking Heads
13. Babylon's Burning - The Ruts
14. If The Kids Are United - Sham 69
15. Alternative Ulster - Stiff Little Fingers
16. Boys Don't Cry - The Cure
17. She Is Beyond Good And Evil - The Pop Group
18. Is She Really Going Out With Him? - Joe Jackson
19. Get Over You - The Undertones
20. Love Like Anthrax - Gang Of Four
21. Peaches - The Stranglers
22. Into The Valley - Skids
23. You Can't Put Your Arms Round A Memory - Johnny Thunders
24. Love Will Tear Us Apart - Joy Division
post #84 of 691
Thread Starter 
I've been thinking about getting that box set for awhile and have been waiting for a used copy to show up in my local record store. I already have most of the Ramones catalog and a smattering of others--Talking Heads of course, Clash, some Black Flag, Iggy Pop, Patti Smith.

I have some box sets that have the rock and roll that in many instances inspired punk--a box called Loud, Fast and Out of Control (50's rock) and the Nuggets box sets--a lot of great garage rock in those.

Joe Jackson listed as a punk rocker? Now that's interesting.
post #85 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by squonk View Post

Joe Jackson listed as a punk rocker? Now that's interesting.

That's where the booklet comes in handy. They explain their reasoning behind each selection. Some are a bit of a stretch, but they do a pretty good job of explaining their rationale. They had this on sale at Fry's a while back for (I think) about $40. Even at $50-$60 (Amazon), it's a good deal for a 4 CD box.
post #86 of 691
To clarify and add a few things:

squonk: "If that's the extent of your knowledge of Yes, then you obviously need to educate yourself a little more on progressive rock"

Nope, that's not the extent of my knowledge of Yes (in particular) - to me, it just sums them up perfectly. *I* think they're long-winded and simple (not musically simple). The point is - I don't like them - not their early stuff, not "Owner of a Lonely Heart" era - really, none of it. Do I care if they are in the HOF? Couldn't care less, as just because someone is in the HOF is not going to change my attitude about a band. And it really is a vanity thing to be inducted, so to me, the more a band is honored by it, the more I tend to think they care a whole lot more about attention and less about the music. I'd also prefer to not have to see Rick Wakeman show up in a flowing cape and smile and wave at the cameras on all the news channels (that is, if he was getting along with the rest of them at that time). But again, that's just me. It would appear that you feel personally betrayed, in a way, that a band you think has "more musical talent and knowledge in their pinkie fingers, who have a 35 year career and dozens of albums" is not in. Me - I don't care. I don't care about their talent, as how they use their talent bores me and just seems pretentious most of the time. But those are personal preferences - I just don't think the honoring of them or anyone else in this way really matters in the end.

And don't get me wrong - remember, I think it was a disservice to The Pistols to induct them (in reference to your chuckling comment). I think it is funny, too.

"So you are also dismissing virtually the entire ouput of one of the greatest bands ever? Including Who's Next? Seriously?"

Yep. - dang it, I was going to leave it that, because it would be funny - but no, I have to ruin it by adding to this before posting. I have heard all of their albums (up through the 70's anyway). Some multiple times due to a particular friend and from being a manager at an indie record store in the early-mid 80's. Most of the earlier live footage I have seen of them is pretty good - the albums seem pretty over-produced to me compared to what they seemed capable of live. I simply don't think of them as one of the greatest bands ever. But that's what personal taste is all about.

"quickly went away? Huh?"

Yeah - bad wording. I haven't heard any of this Hamburg stuff in like 22 years or so, but I remember it being really ratty and raw. They didn't record like that for long.

Gecko - Yeah, Decline has been way outta print for some time now. Unfortunately.
As a warning for anyone who might pick it up and not know better, "Suburbia" is a little silly. And the opening scene? That kind of thing never happened at shows. Casey Royer (singer for DI) made fun of that scene for a few years after it came out when they'd play (oh, DI is the band in this bizarre scene - there were so many other accurate ways they could have set up the plot that it was odd they chose to go the route they did). But it is great overall and definitely worth watching - fantastic footage of The Vandals with (the recently deceased) Stevo. Just watch with caution if you're watching for "educational purposes." Also has some great lines.


GreySkies - minor clarification re "Joy Division embraced synths" - actually, Joy Division was gone with the suicide of Ian Curtis in 1980. It was the rest of the band who created New Order who embraced synths. Again, pretty nit-picky, but I like to pick at nits.

More nit-picking - The Germs were pretty much 70's only - and Darby Crash died in 1980. And Gecko, gee, and you forgot the whole No Wave scene (just kidding - you've covered so much here in this thread).


Dean: "But the best progressive rock bands speak to the other side of the brain, and it's just kind of unfortunate that more people don't like to have both hemispheres equally massaged."

I definitely see your point here - however, my problem is that so much of it seems really pretentious and just goes on and on and on and bugs me too much to get anything from it. But that's just my personal thing. Then again, I really like early blues, swing, some classical, etc. When I was a kid in the 70's, I hated almost all music except for some 30's and 40's stuff (hadn't been exposed to blues at that time). Everything else that I had heard was pretty much 60's and 70's rock and really didn't like it, so pretty much didn't like music overall. Until I discovered punk.

Helter: "The Beatles whether you like them or not are generally considered the most influential group in history. They also have the greatest record sales in history."

While the former may be true, and the latter definitely is, to me, that does not necessarily make them "The Greatest." That's such an absolute statement. Then again, if pressed, I don't think I could tell you who I thought was "The Greatest." I have problems with absolutes like that, though. Personally, I don't much care for their pop stuff that much, nor the more hippy stuff. In a way, you proved CoreyM's point however. He said that if people say they were "the greatest" it will go unchallenged. I went with the inverse (which I believe) and yep, it was challenged. Neat (that's not sarcasm - I just think it is at the very least partial proof of Corey's statement, and I really do think that's neat with it all being in the same thread and all). As far as my statement about the Hamburg stuff, see above.
post #87 of 691
Interesting line-up on that box set. Glad to see "We're Desperate" is on there. I have always thought that it was one of the better songs for summing up punk, both lyrically and musically. "My whole f***ing life is a wreck!" Too bad "Do The Nihil" (by F-Word) didn't make the cut, though.
post #88 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

GreySkies - minor clarification re "Joy Division embraced synths" - actually, Joy Division was gone with the suicide of Ian Curtis in 1980. It was the rest of the band who created New Order who embraced synths. Again, pretty nit-picky, but I like to pick at nits.

Ok, I'll pick this nit-- Closer is in regular rotation in my house. Synths abound. Granted, they're not used as sequenced rhythmic devices as they were/are with many New Order songs (and as originally pioneered by The Who ), but it's pretty clear that they had been embraced by Joy Division. Ian Curtis often played guitar while Benard Sumner was at the keyboard during some of their last shows. This is despite their early reluctance to use synths. It can also be argued that Joy Division would have persued the electronic direction of New Order even if Ian Curtis had not died.
post #89 of 691
Ah - *those* synth's - I thought you were talking about the overly synthy stuff. I do like a lot of the New Order stuff, so "overly synthy" is not meant to be a negative - although I don't know synthy is actually a word... Heh.
post #90 of 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurch4711 View Post

Gecko - Yeah, Decline has been way outta print for some time now. Unfortunately.
As a warning for anyone who might pick it up and not know better, "Suburbia" is a little silly. And the opening scene? That kind of thing never happened at shows. Casey Royer (singer for DI) made fun of that scene for a few years after it came out when they'd play (oh, DI is the band in this bizarre scene - there were so many other accurate ways they could have set up the plot that it was odd they chose to go the route they did). But it is great overall and definitely worth watching - fantastic footage of The Vandals with (the recently deceased) Stevo. Just watch with caution if you're watching for "educational purposes." Also has some great lines.

Yeah, I originally had a longer description of Suburbia with a bit of a warning, but didn't want to scare anyone off...it's still worth watching. I think Over the Edge was FAR more accurate, even though it didn't have anything to do with Punk.

Quote:


More nit-picking - The Germs were pretty much 70's only - and Darby Crash died in 1980.

Yeah, I forget that sometimes...probably because they gained more in popularity *after* he died, so my introduction to The Germs was in the early 80's...
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