or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › PSB Speakers Owners thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 132

post #3931 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

That is a generalization. In the real world, it would be an unusual situation in which all nine channels would be driven to their maximum at the same time.
Also, isn't it true that a "discrete channel" amp actually puts out advertised rated power? Case in point....... I have a Parasound amp that's conservatively rated at 200 wpc(4 ohm) all channels driven and there doesn't seem to be any noticable loss of signal to any of the channels when I'm driving this amp in "Party" mode(stereo signal sent to all five channels).
post #3932 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

That is a generalization. In the real world, it would be an unusual situation in which all nine channels would be driven to their maximum at the same time.

That's a bit of a generalisation as well. If you use 'all channel stereo' or somesuch mode on 2ch music then all of your speakers are going to get quite a workout.

I myself regularly use my Yamaha's '7ch stereo' mode to up-sample 2ch music into wides at 80% of front channel signal and perhaps 65% into the side surrounds with 30% going to the centre speaker.

I always make sure any AVR I purchase has pre-outs so I can offload some of those channels to external poweramps.
post #3933 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Also, isn't it true that a "discrete channel" amp actually puts out advertised rated power? Case in point....... I have a Parasound amp that's conservatively rated at 200 wpc(4 ohm) all channels driven and there doesn't seem to be any noticable loss of signal to any of the channels when I'm driving this amp in "Party" mode(stereo signal sent to all five channels).

No, they're just more accurately rated, the limitation is still a common power supply feeding multiple channels. ICE amps and the like are truly "discrete" if you want to look at it that way, each module being self contained, so no shared power supply, so one channel doesn't drag down others.
post #3934 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

That's a bit of a generalisation as well. If you use 'all channel stereo' or somesuch mode on 2ch music then all of your speakers are going to get quite a workout.
I myself regularly use my Yamaha's '7ch stereo' mode to up-sample 2ch music into wides at 80% of front channel signal and perhaps 65% into the side surrounds with 30% going to the centre speaker.
I always make sure any AVR I purchase has pre-outs so I can offload some of those channels to external poweramps.

Even then, you are probably cruising along with a couple of watts per channel, and I don't know too much music that is going to playing at peak levels on both channels simultaneously, (and it seems less dynamic range is being used every year as the loudness wars continue). If assume that a piece of music doubles from the average (not the low) volume by say 10 db, if you are averaging 5 watts, that means the amps need to produce 50 watts for the peaks.

Take a speaker with 90db/1watt @ 1 meter, assume the listener is 4 meters away (~thirteen feet), and an average listening level of 75 db. Sound transmission loss for a point source is 6db for every doubling of distance, so here is it 12db. The amp should be able to hit 75 db at the listening position with less than 1 watt. If you assume 20 db peaks over average, then the amp will need to produce 60 watts per channel. Still very doable. It is when you look at things like 105 db peaks that the amps are going to be, uhm, taxed. Here you would need 600 watts or so.

Those numbers are a little padded, and of course aren't taking into account boundary reinforcement, constructive/destructive interference, etc., but as those are not related to the amp, are easy to exclude here.

An easier solution to hit those peak levels is to buy higher efficiency speakers, as chasing those levels with just wattage is difficult. There is nothing wrong with having a external amplifier, but ACD tests aren't a really good reason for buying one.
Edited by Snowmanick - 11/16/12 at 10:37pm
post #3935 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

Even then, you are probably cruising along with a couple of watts per channel, and I don't know too much music that is going to playing at peak levels on both channels simultaneously, (and it seems less dynamic range is being used every year as the loudness wars continue). If assume that a piece of music doubles from the average (not the low) volume by say 10 db, if you are averaging 5 watts, that means the amps need to produce 50 watts for the peaks.
Take a speaker with 90db/1watt @ 1 meter, assume the listener is 4 meters away (~thirteen feet), and an average listening level of 75 db. Sound transmission loss for a point source is 6db for every doubling of distance, so here is it 12db. The amp should be able to hit 75 db at the listening position with less than 1 watt. If you assume 20 db peaks over average, then the amp will need to produce 60 watts per channel. Still very doable. It is when you look at things like 105 db peaks that the amps are going to be, uhm, taxed. Here you would need 600 watts or so.
Those numbers are a little padded, and of course aren't taking into account boundary reinforcement, constructive/destructive interference, etc., but as those are not related to the amp, are easy to exclude here.
An easier solution to hit those peak levels is to buy higher efficiency speakers, as chasing those levels with just wattage is difficult. There is nothing wrong with having a external amplifier, but ACD tests aren't a really good reason for buying one.

That is a very good outline. I have a few comments:

1. Not all amplifiers are equally good at low wattage output. That can be a negative side for the owners of high sensitivity speakers.
2. Besides maximum power, amplifier has some "comfort zone". You do not want to drive the amp anywhere close to the maximum power, especially solid state amp.
3. The fact that amplifiers output drops substantially depending on the # of channels loaded, will give you some funny dynamic distortions in real life music/sound track.

All of the above can or cannot be detected in real life set-up depending on the components, music, listener and the situation not always can be predicted without good amount of information and technical data that is not readily available. . That is probably why we have a variety of opinions here.
post #3936 of 5487
Hey PSB owners. Do you think that the Image C4 center is okay for a Sony 5700ES receiver? I'm thinking about it because of its quality and small size but the speaker power rating is up to 80 watts only.
post #3937 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

Hey PSB owners. Do you think that the Image C4 center is okay for a Sony 5700ES receiver? I'm thinking about it because of its quality and small size but the speaker power rating is up to 80 watts only.

Mostly, you should be thinking about the room size and the other speakers. The larger the room, the more power and larger speakers you need. If you use subwoofer, it will help unload the receiver and the rest of the speakers. If you use C4 with the similary sized speakers, there is less chance to damage them (you will start hearing the distortions).
post #3938 of 5487
I'm considering a 5.0 setup with Image T6, C5, and B6 speakers. A couple of questions:
1. I have a Denon 1611 rated at 75W per. Can it handle these speakers.
2. From what I've read, I'm considering other sub brands. Should any of the PSB subs be considered to complete the setup?
post #3939 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by dima333a View Post

Mostly, you should be thinking about the room size and the other speakers. The larger the room, the more power and larger speakers you need. If you use subwoofer, it will help unload the receiver and the rest of the speakers. If you use C4 with the similary sized speakers, there is less chance to damage them (you will start hearing the distortions).

Thanks, it's always good to hear a second opinion. I wanted to use the C4 with the Image T5s but without a sub.
post #3940 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec88 View Post

Thanks, it's always good to hear a second opinion. I wanted to use the C4 with the Image T5s but without a sub.

Hmm... and that is for movies? How big is your room? Frankly, I do not like your combo. I would rather go for Image B5/B6 +C4 +SVS PB 12 NSD biggrin.gif
post #3941 of 5487
I will be bringing my 5i to the shop for the third time. First time was in '08 when the repaired it then 7 months later in '09 when they replaced the amp under warranty. I think this may be the third strike. What a bummer because I love the rest of my PSB Image 7.1 setup. I really don't want to buy another sub right now but I don't really trust the PSB amps at all.
post #3942 of 5487
Hi everyone. I have been reading avs for a while, thought it might be time to dive in. I have just set up a new system with imagine t2 and imagine c running on a Denon 4520. My question is should I set the impedance in the receiver to 4ohms? Going on PSB's spec sheet they are 8 ohm nominal 4 ohm minimum, other places I have read state 6 ohm nominal. I will also be setting up imagine b's once they arrive. I imagine (I see what I did there) the 4520 wouldn't strain to run the t2's. I have considered getting an emotiva xpa-3, but I don't really have the space at the moment.
post #3943 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackaltfl View Post

Hi everyone. I have been reading avs for a while, thought it might be time to dive in. I have just set up a new system with imagine t2 and imagine c running on a Denon 4520. My question is should I set the impedance in the receiver to 4ohms? Going on PSB's spec sheet they are 8 ohm nominal 4 ohm minimum, other places I have read state 6 ohm nominal. I will also be setting up imagine b's once they arrive. I imagine (I see what I did there) the 4520 wouldn't strain to run the t2's. I have considered getting an emotiva xpa-3, but I don't really have the space at the moment.

Actually, this is more of an AVR question, and you might have received better responses over in the 4520 thread.

I also have the 4520 with similar speakers (Synchrony One towers). When this question has been asked, the consensus seems to be that the setting can be left on 8 ohms, especially since you will have other speakers connected that are rated at 8 ohms. If you add the XPA-3, you will find that there is no speaker impedance setting on it, yet it competently handles impedances from 4 to 8 ohms.

Nice set-up, by the way! You will like the Imagine B's when you gt them. The Imagine Mini's are great for effect speakers, like DSX heights, if you go that route.

Edit: There is a lengthy discussion of the 4/6/8 ohm settings over in the 4311 thread, starting about here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1274153/the-official-denon-avr-4311ci-avr-a100-thread-no-price-talk/17610#post_22062750.
Edited by AustinJerry - 12/8/12 at 7:11am
post #3944 of 5487
PSB Owners. I auditioned the PSB Image B5 bookshelfs today and really liked them. My local shop didn't have the Image T5s that I would be more interested in. Do any of you have or have listened to both of them and are willing to comment?

I liked the B5s, but I noticed it didn't have quite as much low end extension as some of the other bookshelf's and towers. I assume the T5s are better in this regard? I would prefer a tower anyways. I don't need a ton of base (will have sub, I currently have an Onkyo 10" sub, but want to upgrade to a HSU-STF-2).

I know the C5 is the center channel that is designed to pair with the T5. How would the C4 sound. I'd like to put the center channel inside a buffet style cabinet underneath the TV, and I think the C5 might be a little bit too wide. Would a pair of T5s and a C4 go well together? Is the C4 rear ported?

One thing I noticed with the B5s is that they had a pretty narrow field of sound compared to the other bookshelfs and towers I listened too. They drop off pretty substantially off axis. Is this true in general for most of the Image line? I don't think it would be an issue except of a single seating location. That you would probably only be used when there were 7+ people over.

I'd using these more for music than movies/TV, but low volume clarity is critical. We have small children so when we do watch TV/Movies it is at night with the kids in bed. Our current center channel (cheap Onkyo) has to be cranked up to understand dialog. I configured my center channel a few dB higher than the others to compensate, which is kind of annoying.
post #3945 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Actually, this is more of an AVR question, and you might have received better responses over in the 4520 thread.
I also have the 4520 with similar speakers (Synchrony One towers). When this question has been asked, the consensus seems to be that the setting can be left on 8 ohms, especially since you will have other speakers connected that are rated at 8 ohms. If you add the XPA-3, you will find that there is no speaker impedance setting on it, yet it competently handles impedances from 4 to 8 ohms.
Nice set-up, by the way! You will like the Imagine B's when you gt them. The Imagine Mini's are great for effect speakers, like DSX heights, if you go that route.
Edit: There is a lengthy discussion of the 4/6/8 ohm settings over in the 4311 thread, starting about here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1274153/the-official-denon-avr-4311ci-avr-a100-thread-no-price-talk/17610#post_22062750.

Thank you for the link. I had thought about putting it in the 4520 thread after posting but figuered there would be someone knowledgeable to come to my rescue here.

I may be able to achieve heights where I am currently. Definately on my to do list.
post #3946 of 5487
Difference between Image 2B and B25?

I have a set of Image 2Bs where I need to replace both the woofer & tweeter in one of them. I have seen available a woofer for an Image B25 that looks identical. Are these the same woofers & tweeters in these speakers?
post #3947 of 5487
How would b6's work for mains with a denon 1612 (75watts per ch) in a 13x17x8 room w open floor plan. For 90%movies 10%music?

Would that be enough power to get close to reference?
post #3948 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

How would b6's work for mains with a denon 1612 (75watts per ch) in a 13x17x8 room w open floor plan. For 90%movies 10%music?
Would that be enough power to get close to reference?

Not unless you sit REALLY close or enjoy reference level distortion. biggrin.gif
post #3949 of 5487
Can anyone recommend a ceiling mount for b5's? I would prefer a mount that doesn't require drilling holes in the speakers.
post #3950 of 5487
So no? I can get there with my ref klipsch. Which have 98db efficiency.

How about -10db
post #3951 of 5487
Hi Everyone.
First time poster here. I already posted this in the wrong forum - i think this is the correct place to post.

I am creating a home theater from scratch. It would be 50/50 2ch music / movies.

I am thinking of getting:

PSB Imagine T2 Tower for front L and R (300W)
PSB Imagine Center (150W)
PSB Imagine Surrounds (can do bipole or dipole or combination) (150W)
PSB Subseries 300 (12", 300W)

These are Home Theater Top Pick:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/psb-imagine-t2-speaker-system
"Seductively Splendid
The Imagine T2 system is splendidly seductive. The graceful curves coyly play with your eyes without demanding constant attention. In the same way, the Imagine T2’s sound is beguilingly smooth and natural; and those alluring sonic qualities extend to the Imagine C center and Imagine S surrounds—and the SubSeries 300—when they’re brought together in one room. Even though it’s composed of six individual boxes, the system is absolutely superb at working together as seamlessly as if it were one big speaker—or, perhaps, no speaker at all. "

Parasound Halo A 51 five channel amp with 250W per ch
This is also Home Theater Top Pick:
http://www.hometheater.com/content/parasound-halo-p-7-multichannel-preamplifier-51-multichannel-amplifier-amp-jc-1-single-chan-0
"The A 51 really came into its own with multichannel musical sources. The Model 7900 does an amazing job with just about any content, but the A 51 definitely had a more musical nature with its detailed top end. High-volume playback of John Mayer’s Where the Light Is live concert Blu-ray was a great showpiece for the A 51. It was less fatiguing than with the Model 7900, and the instruments had a richer sound with better definition. "

Integra DHC 80.3 preamp/processor
Stereophile Recommended Component
http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-49
I like because you get Multi EQ32 at lower price than some others EQ32 preamps/processors.

This would be for 50/50 music/movies. Music is modern stuff, trip hop (Portishead, Massive Attack, Mazzy Star) and some classical.

Any thoughts on this? Specifically, PSB T2 has been described as "warm" and so wondering if Parasound is also "warm"?

The room is pretty big - 30' x 23' - carpeted with several big windows. TV is 65" plasma. I thought i would arrange theater along the short dimension, not the long one. It would still be 23' distance so seating position would not be close to any walls and none of the speakers would be close to any walls. I would use stands for perfect placement. Or i may go long dimension.

thanks
post #3952 of 5487
Nice speakers and electronics. The Imagines should be excellent for both music and cinema. One item that you might reconsider is the sub choice. When one hears about great home theater subs, one rarely hears PSB mentioned. You should consider several other brands that could give you more value for the money. Top brands that I would recommend considering: Seaton Submersives (not inexpensive, but one of the best), SVS, and Hsu Research.

With the other fine components you have selected, you shouldn't skimp on the bass. And remember, two subs are better than one. For a given sub budget, getting two reasonably-priced subs rather than one expensive one will result in better bass in your HT. Good luck!
post #3953 of 5487
Thanks for advice. I will change sub choice. What is advantage of two subs over one? I thought low freq had no "direction" (sorry for newb question).
post #3954 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by bao01 View Post

Thanks for advice. I will change sub choice. What is advantage of two subs over one? I thought low freq had no "direction" (sorry for newb question).

 

Do a web search on “Why are two subs better than one?”.  

 

This is a good read:   http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/multiple-subwoofer-setup-calibration-1

 

More good info, an excerpt from A Guide to Subwoofers (Part II) from the Audioholics web site:

 

The following experts recommend using identical subwoofers:

Read Robert Harley's Books. He is the editor of the Absolute Sound Magazine. Robert Harley, Introductory Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems & The Complete Guide to High-End Audio, 558 pages. Also read Richard Hardesty’s articles in Audio Perfectionist.

Polk Audio:
Polk Audio - Education, FAQ & Advice, Technology Overviews and Technical White Papers
“Using two asymmetrically placed subs will minimize the effects of standing waves in your room, yielding smoother bass response as well as better dynamic range. If using two subwoofers, you must use the identical model of subwoofer. If two different models are used, even from the same manufacturer at some points they will help each other, at others they will fight each other causing a uneven response.”

Subwoofer Connection Guide For A Multi Subwoofer System — Reviews and News from Audioholics
“We get a lot of questions about what types of subs to purchase for a multiple sub setup. When choosing the right subwoofers for your system, it’s a good idea to choose identical subs for optimal cancellation of room resonances, or ones of similar output level and design. Don’t for example mix and match a high quality 15” servo subwoofer with a cheap dual 6” bandpass sub that came with your “cubed” speaker system. Implementing an inferior subwoofer with a good one will limit your systems dynamic range and bandwidth to the weaker sub making your ears focus on the one that is breaking up and running out of steam. Mixing different subs will also reduce the success of canceling out room resonances since they will exhibit different amplitude and phase responses. Always select two well designed subwoofers (preferably the same) that are each in their own capable of filling your theater room with ample bass without bottoming out or running out of gas. If you can’t afford two subwoofers at the moment, buy one quality sub for now and add a similar capable one down the road when you’ve got the cash.”

http://www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf
“Two subwoofers are easier to place and result in a flatter frequency response in almost all situations. If you can afford a second matching subwoofer, this is generally preferred to a single more expensive subwoofer. You will almost always achieve a flatter frequency response and a more realistic overall integration with the main system.”

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/lfmmanual.pdf
“In most circumstances two subwoofers will perform better than one. While you might assume this is for added SPL, the greatest benefit will actually be smoother bass response. Two properly positioned subwoofers will distribute the bass throughout the room with greater accuracy than a single sub. If near perfect bass response is your goal, consider using two LFM Series Subwoofers: the Outlaw Audio Scattered Subwoofer Systems.”

Wendy Carlos Surround1
“In this case I made a trade off for two smaller subwoofers instead of one larger one. With careful A/B comparisons I learned that the bass was nearly the same when the two smaller units were working together as a team as with the single larger unit. But there was, contrary to what I had read, a small amount of additional directionality present with the two subwoofers compared to one.”

Sir Terrence, Audio Insider at Blu-Ray.com:
“The main reason for using identical subwoofers would be identical performance irrespective of room acoustics. With two identical subwoofers, there is a much smaller chance that one will overdrive before the other. If two different size woofers in two different subwoofers are used, the smaller one would have more distortion, more cone motion, and a subtly different sound than the larger one at higher volumes. Even if you use two identical woofers with a different cabinet size, amplifier size, and a different lower frequency limit, one will reach its peak output at a different volume than the other. You want all of your subwoofers to have identical performance to prevent one from dragging another down at high volumes. That is why two identical subwoofers from the same manufacturer are preferred to two different ones.”

post #3955 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

So no? I can get there with my ref klipsch. Which have 98db efficiency.
How about -10db

I'm guessing this is for a 2nd setup since you have the nice Klipsch system.

In which case why not get the Klipsch RB61s or RB81s instead. Might get you closer to what you want.
post #3956 of 5487
I was thinking of it but the klipsch have been harsh to me as of late

Question. If I wall mount them thoughts on mounting them upside down so the tweeter is closer to ear level?
post #3957 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post

I was thinking of it but the klipsch have been harsh to me as of late
Question. If I wall mount them thoughts on mounting them upside down so the tweeter is closer to ear level?

Shouldn't make any difference. Are they front ported? If not then wall mounting them might cause some issues.
post #3958 of 5487
No they are rear ported. They are b6. But they will not be flush mounted. They will be on a bracket arm
post #3959 of 5487
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbould View Post

Can anyone recommend a ceiling mount for b5's? I would prefer a mount that doesn't require drilling holes in the speakers.

If you can mount them on a wall, these are great mounts: http://pinpointmounts.com/am40.html
post #3960 of 5487
Just ordered those same mounts for my new b6's smile.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › PSB Speakers Owners thread