PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 140

Your ears and brain work together. Without your brain, I don't think your ears would have told you anything at all about sound quality! :-)

Of course an amp, as described, will have more power than an AVR as you described. But seriously, don't tell us that AVRs can only put out 30wpc?!!? Have you ever looked at measurements? Sure, the manufacturers inflate them and sometimes give one-channel driven, but magazines do measure this, and I can assure you I've yet to see one drop to 30wpc with all channels driven. I guess you were exaggerating to make a point?

But then the question is this: How much power are you really using? I think you'd be surprised at the results in most listening environments (it's probably just a few watts even at peaks).

And as for the blind tests, they have consistently shown exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

Yeah, you're right........ exaggerating to make a point........sort of.

I agree that in many cases most folks are probably not gonna utilize but a few watts(avg speaker spec, 90db, 1watt-1meter) but when they do, having the extra headroom makes for a cleaner, less distorted and overstressed amp. I know that with my Parasound Halo A-31, it produces a generous 7.5 class A watts before going into class A/B and for most of my listening, I probably stay within that class A range. Where I do disagree is the fact that when I switched over to the Halo A-31, the difference was so night and day that I guarantee you I coulda been able to discern the difference blindfolded. Sounds like cymbal decay which previously wasn't near as defined and sometimes bordered on sounding like pink noise was greatly improved upon as was piano. Previously, listening for long periods was very fatiquing but now I can listen all day.

So because you feel that it's debatable whether one could hear the difference in an A/B test, then do you also feel that there is really no use for lossless formats like DTS HDMA or Dolby True HD since some say the differences are so small that they are barely discernable and we probably wouldn't be able to tell which is which in an A/B test........RIGHT? Should I sell all my high end gear and go back to something like I had in college? I mean if I'm unable to hear the difference blindfolded, then what in the heck am I wasting all this money on?!!! LOL

I know we could go on and on for days debating this audio theory stuff but this IS the PSB speaker thread so on this subject, this is my last post.
Edited by Torqdog - 2/11/13 at 5:20pm

Got a couple Psb 400's. I never knew bookshelf speakers we're capable of such depth. I could swear i'm hearing clean down to 40hz or so. My Cerwin Vegas have been retired to the band room

Fortunately for me I purchased the NAD receiver, which is rated at 60 WAC all channels driven rather than something with inflated ratings. I'm sure I will end up upgrading to a separate amplifier down the road.

When I switched from a receiver to my Parasound Halo amp, I also thought the difference was night and day. I felt that way for several months. Seriously.
Then I set up a level-matched quick-switch A/B test between the two, and guess what? I couldn't tell them apart.
Our brains play tricks on us all the time.

My receiver asks me during setup to give the ohms of my specific speakers. What should they be set to for image t6, c5 and b5?

Thank you

6 ohm

What receiver is it?

And Brian, why do you recommend the 6 Ohm setting?
Does that do anything positive or just restrict the amp's output?

I picked up a Denon 4311.

I was told the actual impedance of he psb's is 6 ohm. So that's what i set my onkyo at

Most receivers just restrict output at the lower settings. The lower setting is only necessary if you are running the receiver hard so the extra restriction will help it from being overloaded.

PSB states that they are 6 ohm speakers

Yep, that's the direction I was leading them to.

Speaker impedance is complex, ie, it varies with frequency. It can't be defined by a single number, though it often is (and that number is usually a "nominal" value).

Setting the amp like that just limits its output to keep it from overheating.

Simply not turning it up too loud would also accomplish the same thing!

That's how the argument goes. You "know" that your amplifier is running class A and you absolutely believe that this improves its sound quality. What would it take to make you forget this while you are listening to your system?

On numerous occasions I've heard dozens of people say exactly the same thing. Guess what happened when they were treated to a level-matched double blind test? Random guessing.

One such person is me. I can tell you what it feels like the first time you hear a unbiased comparison. It is sonic vertigo. Aural free-fall.

Been there, done that and at this point, so have 100's if not 1,000's of people.

Interesting question. Thing is, I don't have to spend any more money out-of-pocket to enjoy those benefits. Even low end AVRs support those features.

FWIW I have done perceptual coder DBTs and I know that Dolby Digital was not always indistinguishable from PCM. Like everybody else you've been listening to DD DVDs for about a decade. Did you feel that every movie you watched for those 10 years was sonically deficient?

That question ignores enhancements to audio over the past decade(s) that many of us enjoy that can be easily detected in a DBT. Things like multichannel versus stereo, improved loudspeakers, improvements in recording technology, bass management, automated system optimization (Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, etc.) and so on.

On balance it has been known for about 4 decades that a SS power amp does not need to run in class A up into the range of many watts to be sonically transparent. Plain ordinary class AB amplfiiers done well, which has been standard technology for almost 50 years at this point, do the job. Therefore, the experience that you mentioned at the beginning of your post and used to centerpiece your argument was most likely an illusion.

The lower impedance setting is primarily for test bench operation.

The following images show the energy content of three different waveforms:\. The first is a highly clipped sine wave, the second is an unclipped sine wave such as is used for bench testing power amplifiers, and the third is a segment of a highly compressed popular recording (Carrie Underwood).

Highly clipped sine wave


Unclipped sine wave such as is used for bench testing power amplifiers,


Segment of a highly compressed and clipped popular recording (Carrie Underwood).


The comparison we are most interested in right now is between the second and third picture. We want to cmpare the statistic called "Total RMS power". Please noitice that this number is about -3 dB for the bench test, and more like -9 dB for the heavily compressed popular recording. The difference is about 6 dB or 4 times the power. Thus it is safe to say that worst case music still has only about a quarter of the energy that is involved with bench tests. When a power amp is being tested using standard procedures it it drawing 4 times as much current from its power supply as it would for worst case music. Therefore, the bench test puts far more stress on the amplifier than actual use.

This illustration itself shows far more stress than is usually encountered in actual use because very few people run their amplifiers just below clipping at any time. Thus the magazine tests showing power amplifiers struggling to provide full power are misleading beause they are based on bench tests that put far more stress on the equipment than even worst case home use.

Agreed. Here is the impedance curve of a fairly typical loudspeaker:



It is above 6 ohms over about half of the audio spectrum where music has most of its energy.

A good bottle of Scotch and fine cigar. Yeah, me too. I personally have never participated in an audio DBT but my Dad once got the best of me and the hundred bucks I wagered when he had me blindfolded and try to guess which distilled spirit I was tasting. Scotch, Vodka, Bourbon and Gin were lined up and I failed miserably. It was quite the shocker. Try it sometime. BTW; I have found that this is a good moneymaking prank at parties and have recouped my initial hundred dollar loss 20 fold. This is one place where I disagree. The difference between cymbals that sound lush and full of decay as is presented by the new Halo as compared to the cymbals sounding more like pink noise coming from the amp the Halo replaced is something I think would be fairly easy to nail in a DBT. Yeah and my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek but the question remains. Why, if the differences in sound between lossy and lossless are also presumably not distinguishable in a DBT, then what is all the hoopla about other than selling more blurays? I personally do hear differences and enjoy the lossless format. Dynamics and clarity, especially when we're talking about sounds like explosions, crashes, gunfire to name a few is just much more realistically presented with a lossless format, in general. There's still some bad studio mastering but that is a whole nother subject.
At the time, no. But when I go back and watch some of the old DVDs that have been since replaced by blus with the latest audio formats, there is definite and noticable improvement on most, BUT, not all. If there wasn't, then it would seem a waste to upgrade aside from the enhanced video a bluray presents. Again, my rhetorical question was largely based in a kind of tongue in cheek presentation. In my situation, I merely stated the improvements heard when I switched amplifiers with everything else remaining the same. Taking the DBT method of audio analysis and using the info garnered, then when making decisions as to which gear I should look at buying, maybe I should scrap my Halo for something I might find on the shelf at BB? Sounds like I'm not gonna be able to tell the difference blindfolded so why waste all that money?!! I'll just be sure to continue wearing my blindfold when listening so that I remain satisfied that what I'm listening to is as good as it gets. Again, more tongue in cheek but I think you are probably catching my drift. You're probably right. As I mentioned earlier, I failed miserably at the blindfolded distilled spirit test. I guess I'll start mixing orange juice with my Scotch from now on.

What I'm trying to say with all this diatribe I've spewed is that if we were to solely base our audio gear purchases on some sort of DBT, the world of audio components would be a far more spartan, simpler place with a helluva lot less to choose from but man-o-man, it would indeed be a far more boring place, aurally speaking.

BTW; One other place where I failed miserably is forgetting that I also stated in that last post that this is the PSB Speaker thread and the fact that we could go on and on for days discussing this audio theory stuff meant it would be my last post on the subject. This WILL be my last word as we will never come to terms. I fully understand your position and to some extent, agree. So that is it for me. If you feel that you must rebut, the floor is all yours.
Edited by Torqdog - 2/15/13 at 7:56pm

I ordered speakers last week and was told a 4 week wait was to be expected. I got a call from a freight company today asking to schedule a delivery for Monday 2/18 (I have Monday off, perfect!). When I got home i found that FedEx had left two large boxes at my door today, my Imagine T2 towers! I'm not sure why they shipped separately, or which packages the freight company has, I will find out Monday. i am expecting the Sub Series 300, Imagine center, and the Imagine S surrounds.

I hooked up the T2's briefly before dinner, they sounded good out of the box but my impression is they would need some break in time. After dinner I cut some new speaker leads and bi-amped them on my NAD T757 receiver, they seemed to come alive with more power, theoretically 120 watts to each when bi-amped. Not really wanting to push anything too hard on break in, I listened to the Phantom of the Opera discs at -20db volume on the AVR. They have a great sound to them, very neutral and accurate, and I know they will only improve as they get some hours on them.

In my personal opinion, human hearing is rather adaptive and the ability to hear the difference depends on many factors, including psychological and physical comfort. Yes, I do admit that many "obvious" differences are rather subtle at first and not necessary as apparent as we sometimes happen to believe. A good and easy to understand illustration would be picking up shoes. They might feel O.K. in the store, and you might not even feel the difference with your old shoes the first time you try. However, they also can easily give you quite some troubles by the end of the first day of use. That is about talking obvious and not so obvious differences. I had very similar experience with audio equipment... it takes time, comfort and relaxation before I can start hearing the details.

Anyway, I do not deny the usefulness of double blind test, you just need to be carefull how it is set up and how the results are being interpreted.

Bi-amping that way doesn't double the power, either theoretically or in real life. It doesn't do much of anything, in fact, except for at clipping of the lows, you won't get the high-frequency energy sent to the tweeter.

Need some help, have my head spun around trying to figure out speakers for my upcoming home theater. I want a 7.1 or 7.2 system for a room that is 18'x19' (screen on the short wall) with the LCR behind the screen. Most likely 80% movies, 15% games, 5% music. Looking at speakers, subs will be non-PSB. I am leaning towards PSB Image or Paradigm Monitor series for the speakers, though the difficulty of demoing and ordering Paradigm has me leaning towards PSB at the moment (though it isn't a whole lot better in the Phoenix area). So with that said, if you were building a 7.2 system with PSB Image (Imagine is out of my price range), what would it look like? Fronts: T5/T6? Surrounds/Rears: B6 or S5 or both? etc. And if you are so-inclined what sub(s) would you recommend with a $1K sub budget. Thanks!

 

This may not be what you want to hear, but your room dimensions, I.e. an almost square room, will make it extremely challenging to get good bass response.  Since your tastes are primarily for movies, I suspect good bass is high on your list.  So, if you have a limited budget, you might consider bookshelf size speakers, rather than tower speakers.  This would perhaps allow you to allocate more of your budget so you can purchase two subs instead of one.  Two subs, placed properly, will be much more effective in overcoming the issues with your room dimensions.

 

A good-quality bookshelf speaker system, when paired with the appropriate subs, can be a very effective home theater system.  Having PSB speakers for my entire 11.1 setup, I can certainly recommend PSB to you, and the Image line is a very fine choice.  As for a sub recommendation, both SVS and Hsu Research have some excellent performing subs that should be in your price range.  Again, seriously consider getting two subs.

Agreed I have the B6 as my mains paired with a Psa xv15 and they sound better than my reference tower klipsch speaker system by a long shot too (rf-3ii)

Actually that confirms what I was thinking, that I need two subs, so that is good to hear. I do have some room on the budget, just not enough to step up to a full Imagine setup. So even though every room is different, I just want to make sure I am not making a big mistake (ie, really need two subs, or X doesn't pair well with Y in a 7.2).

So this is what I was originally thinking along the lines of:

2 x Image T6 (L/R)
1 x Image C5
2 x Image S5 (Surrounds)
2 x Image B6 (Rears)
2 x Subs to be named later

In a 7.2, is it better to have the sides and rears match (ie. go all S5 or B6/5/4) or mix it up like I listed? Thanks for the help!

I am entertaining the idea of selling my B6 and C5 center if your interested

Brian, you just got the B6 / C5, what gives?

I have issues hahah. Well I am auditioning the aperion grands. Now that I have ample power and my son can't pull the grills off those. If I like them better (they were my number one choice back In November but went psb due to not having enough power to properly drive the aperions) I need to sell my psb to pay for them.

The odd thing here is I love love love my psb. I am just suffering from the what if's.

I was thinkin the same thing. Wassup Brian?

 

The speakers you have listed retail for $3,145.  Add two reasonably-priced subs (e.g. the Hsu VTF-3MK4 (12") for $1,319), and your total wil be ~$4,500.  Consider several alternatives:

 

Substitute 2 x Image B6 for the 2 x Image T6 fronts, and upgrade to dual Hsu VTF-15H (15" vs. 12") for a total of $4,105.

 

Eliminate 2 x Image B6 rear surrounds, keep the 2 x T6 fronts, and upgrade to dual Hsu VTF-15H (15" vs. 12") for a total of $4,305.

 

If your objective is high-quality home theater sound with immersive bass, your budget is better spent on the best subs you can afford (two, of course).  The Image B6 bookshelf speaker has the same mid-range and tweeter that the T6 has, and since you will be re-directing the bass below ~80Hz to the subs, you won't hear a difference between the B6's and the T6's for your front speakers.  As for the rear surrounds, keep in mind that only a small number of movies are actually released with 7.1 sound tracks.  For all other 5.1 sources, the only thing you hear from the rear surrounds are synthesized sounds, e.g. PLIIx Cinema.  If you look at the Audyssey recommendation, your speaker dollar is better spent in the following order:  First DSX Wide speakers, then DSX Height speakers, and lastly surround back speakers.  BTW, what AVR do you have?  Does it support DSX?

 

If you eliminate the rear surrounds and try the B6's as the front speakers, you can always move the B6's to the rear surrounds and purchase T6's for the front later.  This way you can evaluate the sound and make an informed decision down the road. 

 

Edit:  You do not want the S5 as a rear surround.