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PSB Speakers Owners thread - Page 141

post #4201 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

The speakers you have listed retail for $3,145.  Add two reasonably-priced subs (e.g. the Hsu VTF-3MK4 (12") for $1,319), and your total wil be ~$4,500.  Consider several alternatives:

Substitute 2 x Image B6 for the 2 x Image T6 fronts, and upgrade to dual Hsu VTF-15H (15" vs. 12") for a total of $4,105.

Eliminate 2 x Image B6 rear surrounds, keep the 2 x T6 fronts, and upgrade to dual Hsu VTF-15H (15" vs. 12") for a total of $4,305.

If your objective is high-quality home theater sound with immersive bass, your budget is better spent on the best subs you can afford (two, of course).  The Image B6 bookshelf speaker has the same mid-range and tweeter that the T6 has, and since you will be re-directing the bass below ~80Hz to the subs, you won't hear a difference between the B6's and the T6's for your front speakers.  As for the rear surrounds, keep in mind that only a small number of movies are actually released with 7.1 sound tracks.  For all other 5.1 sources, the only thing you hear from the rear surrounds are synthesized sounds, e.g. PLIIx Cinema.  If you look at the Audyssey recommendation, your speaker dollar is better spent in the following order:  First DSX Wide speakers, then DSX Height speakers, and lastly surround back speakers.  BTW, what AVR do you have?  Does it support DSX?

If you eliminate the rear surrounds and try the B6's as the front speakers, you can always move the B6's to the rear surrounds and purchase T6's for the front later.  This way you can evaluate the sound and make an informed decision down the road. 

Edit:  You do not want the S5 as a rear surround. 
All excellent points. And as I said (despite me auditioning other speakers at no risk I.e. free shipping both ways) using the B6 as mains with a good sub (mine is the Psa xv15) you will be way more than pleased.
post #4202 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

The speakers you have listed retail for $3,145.  Add two reasonably-priced subs (e.g. the Hsu VTF-3MK4 (12") for $1,319), and your total wil be ~$4,500.  Consider several alternatives:

Substitute 2 x Image B6 for the 2 x Image T6 fronts, and upgrade to dual Hsu VTF-15H (15" vs. 12") for a total of $4,105.

Eliminate 2 x Image B6 rear surrounds, keep the 2 x T6 fronts, and upgrade to dual Hsu VTF-15H (15" vs. 12") for a total of $4,305.

If your objective is high-quality home theater sound with immersive bass, your budget is better spent on the best subs you can afford (two, of course).  The Image B6 bookshelf speaker has the same mid-range and tweeter that the T6 has, and since you will be re-directing the bass below ~80Hz to the subs, you won't hear a difference between the B6's and the T6's for your front speakers.  As for the rear surrounds, keep in mind that only a small number of movies are actually released with 7.1 sound tracks.  For all other 5.1 sources, the only thing you hear from the rear surrounds are synthesized sounds, e.g. PLIIx Cinema.  If you look at the Audyssey recommendation, your speaker dollar is better spent in the following order:  First DSX Wide speakers, then DSX Height speakers, and lastly surround back speakers.  BTW, what AVR do you have?  Does it support DSX?

If you eliminate the rear surrounds and try the B6's as the front speakers, you can always move the B6's to the rear surrounds and purchase T6's for the front later.  This way you can evaluate the sound and make an informed decision down the road. 

Edit:  You do not want the S5 as a rear surround. 

Thanks for the insight that is helpful. Meant to include my AVR earlier, currently I have a Onkyo 609 but have been considering an upgrade as part of this. Always liked the Onkyo AVRs, so I had my eye on the 818 but haven't made any decisions.

As for the speakers, the DSX is an interesting setup...not sure if it would work with how my room is laid out, the RW might be right where the door currently is.

As for dollars, I think the $4500 should fit the budget. Another question, assuming I go ahead with T6 for the fronts, are the B6 a bit big for rears? Would I be better off with B4 or B5, knowing they are intended as rears? Or B6 still the way to go?
post #4203 of 5482

^ I have Imagine Minis for rear surrounds.  IMO, any of the models you mention will do just fine.  I am rarely aware of any substantial contribution to my listening enjoyment that can be attributed to rear surrounds.  If someone disconnected them, it would probably take me weeks before I realized they were silent...

post #4204 of 5482
...sorry, made a mistake, my AVR is Onkyo 605.

Good to know about the minis, will have a look at those.
post #4205 of 5482
^^^^ I don't think you can ever go too big for the surrounds. You merely adjust using a SPL meter and get ALL channels balanced equally.
post #4206 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Bi-amping that way doesn't double the power, either theoretically or in real life. It doesn't do much of anything, in fact, except for at clipping of the lows, you won't get the high-frequency energy sent to the tweeter.

I don't understand how utilizing two additional channels on the amplifier does not add to the amount of watts being sent to the speaker. The amplifier I am using is rated at 60x7 with all channels driven, I was only using 5 channels, now I am using all 7. I understand that there is only one power source shared by all of the channels in my AVR, but mine has the ability to set the rear surround channels for rear, zone 2, or biamp. The speakers did get noticably louder at the same volume setting than they were before biamping, I turned the volume down from -20db to -25 db for similar volume.
Edited by BroncoAZ - 2/17/13 at 1:27pm
post #4207 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc76 View Post

Need some help, have my head spun around trying to figure out speakers for my upcoming home theater. I want a 7.1 or 7.2 system for a room that is 18'x19' (screen on the short wall) with the LCR behind the screen. Most likely 80% movies, 15% games, 5% music. Looking at speakers, subs will be non-PSB. I am leaning towards PSB Image or Paradigm Monitor series for the speakers, though the difficulty of demoing and ordering Paradigm has me leaning towards PSB at the moment (though it isn't a whole lot better in the Phoenix area). So with that said, if you were building a 7.2 system with PSB Image (Imagine is out of my price range), what would it look like? Fronts: T5/T6? Surrounds/Rears: B6 or S5 or both? etc. And if you are so-inclined what sub(s) would you recommend with a $1K sub budget. Thanks!

I just went through the selection process, if I were going with the Image line my choice was as follows:
Image T6 towers
Image C5 center
Image B4 surrounds
No rears (there isn't that much 7.1 material out)

I listened to the B6 side by side with the T6 before making my decision, the T6 does sound much fuller. Paul at Wilson Audio in Tucson recommended the B4 over the S5 for surrounds, but a friend of mine in the AV business highly recommended the dipole surrounds. I ended up with all Imagine instead, for the sub I did stick with PSB's Sub Series 300. I like that the Imagine surrounds left me with some options.

I am also in Phoenix, it is irritating that none of the dealers here have a listening room.
post #4208 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoAZ View Post

I just went through the selection process, if I were going with the Image line my choice was as follows:
Image T6 towers
Image C5 center
Image B4 surrounds
No rears (there isn't that much 7.1 material out)

I listened to the B6 side by side with the T6 before making my decision, the T6 does sound much fuller. Paul at Wilson Audio in Tucson recommended the B4 over the S5 for surrounds, but a friend of mine in the AV business highly recommended the dipole surrounds. I ended up with all Imagine instead, for the sub I did stick with PSB's Sub Series 300. I like that the Imagine surrounds left me with some options.

I am also in Phoenix, it is irritating that none of the dealers here have a listening room.

Good information.

Brian - Thanks for the offer but I think I will be going with the cherry finish, as per the WAF. smile.gif

Bronco - how did you end up purchasing your PSB, since there is no local demos? Go through Crutchfield? Or a local on faith? I am half leaning towards Crutchfield and their 60 day return policy.
post #4209 of 5482
This may be a silly question but why would an amp capable of more watts per channel sound better than an amp with fewer wpc if the smaller amp is never driven to it's limits? For instance, I have a NAD T748 (40 wpc all channels driven) with PSB B6's as mains. The useable volume range is from -60 dB to +15 dB (the scale goes to -99 but I cannot hear anything below -60). The loudest I ever listen to anything is -10 dB. That's only about 73% of the T748's volume range. Since (as I understand it) volume and power are not linear 73% of the volume should not be using anywhere near 73% of the T748's available power. So would stepping up to say a T777 with double the power (80 wpc all channels driven) make any difference in what I hear from the B6's and if so, why?
post #4210 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by havoc76 View Post

Good information.

Brian - Thanks for the offer but I think I will be going with the cherry finish, as per the WAF. smile.gif

Bronco - how did you end up purchasing your PSB, since there is no local demos? Go through Crutchfield? Or a local on faith? I am half leaning towards Crutchfield and their 60 day return policy.

I went to Wilson Audio in Tucson to listen to the PSB speakers, but I ordered them through an incentive program from my employer. Paul, one of the owners of Wilson, was very good to deal with, even when I told him I was not purchasing the speakers from him. They had all of the Image line available to demo, and the Imagine T and B speakers. I ordered the Imagine T2 based on my impression of the Imagine T I listened to at Wilson. I couldn't have purchased the PSB product completely on faith, I had to hear most of it first, I am just too OCD about large purchases to buy on faith alone. Now that I have the T2 I am very pleased with the sound. I think the T6 would've been fine too, but being able to compare the Image T6 to the Imagine T the difference was obvious.

I get to Tucson for work every couple of months. I did purchase my NAD receiver from Paul, his price including the sales tax was the same as Crutchfield.
post #4211 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

This may be a silly question but why would an amp capable of more watts per channel sound better than an amp with fewer wpc if the smaller amp is never driven to it's limits? For instance, I have a NAD T748 (40 wpc all channels driven) with PSB B6's as mains. The useable volume range is from -60 dB to +15 dB (the scale goes to -99 but I cannot hear anything below -60). The loudest I ever listen to anything is -10 dB. That's only about 73% of the T748's volume range. Since (as I understand it) volume and power are not linear 73% of the volume should not be using anywhere near 73% of the T748's available power. So would stepping up to say a T777 with double the power (80 wpc all channels driven) make any difference in what I hear from the B6's and if so, why?

The more powerful AVR will be running in the middle of it's power range and should produce less noise (Distortion) at the same audible volume level as the smaller AVR being driven at the upper end of it's power range. The loudest I have listened to anything on my NAD T757 (60 wpc all channels driven) is -20 dB.
post #4212 of 5482
I normally listen in the -20 to -25 range myself for movies, music is usually -25 to -35 while late night listening can get down to -50. The -10 was just to see what it sounded like. I have noticed that noise (a hissing sound) starts creeping in at levels above -10 and by 0 is very noticeable. At levels below -15 there is no noticeable noise. Guess I'll keep the T748. Thanks
post #4213 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoAZ View Post

The more powerful AVR will be running in the middle of it's power range and should produce less noise (Distortion) at the same audible volume level as the smaller AVR being driven at the upper end of it's power range. The loudest I have listened to anything on my NAD T757 (60 wpc all channels driven) is -20 dB.

As long as both are being run below clipping, both amps will be running at a range where their THD is vanishingly low, ie, there will be no audible difference until clipping occurs.
post #4214 of 5482
Hello Everyone, I was excited to find a thread about the PSB's. I just recently purchased a pair and listened too them for the first time (no audition) last night. I hooked the PSB's up to a NAD 356BEE. On speakers B I have NHT Classic Two bookshelf speakers hung from the back wall. I placed the PSB Image B6's on DJ tripods so the sound would be ear level when sitting at the bar. Seating is about 20 feet away in a basement room approx 30 x 20.

I was never an audiophile per say. I would consider myself a music lover more than the studying of the nuances of it. But the Image 6's speakers are very "expressive", I would call it. The NHT Classic Two is around $650 for a pair in most circles so you would likely pay more for them. The NHT bookshelfs provide more bass (probably because there is no ports on them) and they shine in that area. But the PSB's were more well defined, perhaps simply having more clarity and yes, I do hear nuances in the music that I had not heard before in the NHT's. My older music (poor original recordings playing in the WMA format in a USB thumb in a Yamaha CD player) sounded MUCH better on the PSB's. Perhaps the PSB's are more "Musical" than the NHT's but its amazing how much critical listening one must do to tell them apart when you stand directly between them. Unless you increase the volume! Then some of the advantage PSB had at lower levels (more revealing) were lost when sound was say, at the 12 oclock position - the NHT's growl at you and look and sound intimidating while vibrating joyfully! - while the PSB's are still trying to finesse the music. The bass in the PSB's is not muddled, but the boxes are limited for large room takeover attempts. However, we listen :mad:to far more music at the 9-10 oclock position than we do at the 12 oclock position - so I am very happy with the PSB's Image B6!!

I did sense that on some of the highs there was a little screeching, shrill if you will, on some recordings. I attribute that to being new. (?)
post #4215 of 5482
Glad to see we have another convert. smile.gif

You are seemingly for the first time by your admission hearing the fine details that have before gone un-noticed. Those B-6s are nice but may be a bit on the small side considering your 30 x 20 room size.

Enjoy them.
post #4216 of 5482
Agreed. I noticed soooo much detail once grabbing some B6.

So I am going into my review of the verus grand bookshelf pretty much knowing they are going back. But hey crazier things can happen

I did notice the B6's don't sound great with music over say -10db. And it's not my amp wink.gif
post #4217 of 5482
They probably are, no way of knowing unless i get monster bookshelfs! I have seen some and they dont come cheap. If I had gone with towers they would have sat behind a couch and chairs and the cats would have likely clawed them too pieces. When the wife went to bed last night, I simply turned off the NHT's and moved the PSB's on DJ stands closer to where I was sitting. I like the idea of being able to change the sound staging. I need to finish my sound "proofing" so I can play it louder.
post #4218 of 5482
I have T45s (and C40 and B15s) and no sub and I have a question about them.

First a little background. I've driven them for about 4 years with an older Sony ES receiver with the T45s set to large (full range) and all the bass management routed through them as well. About 10 months ago, I got a new TV/Blu Ray, etc and went the HDMI route. I bought a Denon AVR-2312 to power everything the same way (T45 set to large, no sub, etc). It's been working great until last weekend. The amp does a relay click and the main channels go out. This happens regardless of volume (it doesn't have to be cranked at all). I saw it happen while watching TV after the kids were in bed at very low volume). After a while they come back. There is no indication of anything on the display (everything is normal). I swapped speaker cables with my bedroom system just to be sure I wasn't shorting anything out, etc. I also swapped receivers and the Sony still appears to power the PSB's fine. The kicker is that the Denon powers my Monitor Audio RS1's fine in my bedroom. I've been playing it (loud at times) for the last couple days as much as possible with no issues (albeit only in 2 channel mode).

I'm going to put the Denon back with the PSBs tonight when I get some time and see if I can reproduce the problem, but in the meantime, my question is this: The T45s are "6 ohm" but I noticed on the measurements that Soundstage magazine did way back in the day that the impedance dips to 4 ohms in the lower frequencies. Could the Denon just not be able to handle this? Maybe it's time to invest in a sub. Any thoughts? Is anyone here using the T45s with a recent Denon receiver? The Sony has a 4 ohm switch on the back, but I've never used it. It's worked for years in the "8 ohm" setting.

BTW: I called Denon as the receiver is still under warranty and they seemed to think it wasn't the receiver. I've been told that If I were overdriving the receiver it should go into protect mode and turn off and blink lights, etc. They wanted to do more troubleshooting, but I didn't have the receiver hooked up at the time and when set it up in the bedroom, it worked fine so I haven't called them back yet.
post #4219 of 5482
The resistance (ohms) of any speaker will vary with frequency, the lower the frequency the less the resistance (smaller ohm number). The 6 ohm rating on the PSB's is a nominal (think average) rating. An 8 ohm rated speaker is also a nominal rating so they too can drop down to 4 ohm at low frequencies. I drive 6 ohm nominal PSB speakers with an 8 ohm rated AVR all the time with no problem.

My first guess is that something is tripping the Denon's protection circuit. I would hook the Denon back up to the PSB's, reproduce the problem then call Denon tech support. It may sound strange but a technician cannot troubleshoot a problem unless it is occurring.
post #4220 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

The resistance (ohms) of any speaker will vary with frequency,
Impedance.
Quote:
the lower the frequency the less the resistance (smaller ohm number).
It's far from that simple. This is a typical woofer impedance chart:

Quote:
An 8 ohm rated speaker is also a nominal rating so they too can drop down to 4 ohm at low frequencies.
8 ohm speakers typically have a minimum impedance of 5 ohms, but they can go lower. When they do it's seldom in the lows, but rather in the midrange, in the region of the crossover between the woofer and mid driver. The fault is poor crossover design. It's not commonplace, but it happens. Speakers with that fault usually end up classified as being a hard load to drive.
post #4221 of 5482
Yes, according the soundstage measurements in 06, the T45's impedance bottoms out around 150 Hz or so. Here's the graph http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/speakers/psb_image_t45/impedance.gif.

Anyway, I will hook it up tonight, try to reproduce the problem and call them if it happens. I'm just trying to figure out if there is a reason besides a defective amp that it would be happening. Thanks!
post #4222 of 5482
Well, as I ultimately suspected (and was hoping), my problem had nothing to do with my speakers. I think the problem was a faulty plug strip/surge protector. My Sony ES doesn't seem to care, but the Denon freaks out when plugged into that plug strip. Last night, I brought the Denon back downstairs and hooked it back to the PSBs and lost the main channels within 2 minutes again. I tried the Monitor Audio speakers, but they did the same thing (when in the living room). Then I swapped speaker cables. Same result. (I was happy the PSB's weren't to "blame" at this point). I tried unhooking the other channels since it had been working in 2.0 all weak as part of my 2nd system. I was kind of baffled at this point since I had essentially brought everything from upstairs down at this point, but then it hit me that it was plugged into a different surge protector. I swapped that and it was fine. I swapped back to the PSBs and have had the Denon on and playing (sometimes quite loud) for almost 24 hours. All seems well.

Most of my surge protectors are ancient. I think it might be time to invest in some new ones.
post #4223 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by larkowski1 View Post

Well, as I ultimately suspected (and was hoping), my problem had nothing to do with my speakers. I think the problem was a faulty plug strip/surge protector. My Sony ES doesn't seem to care, but the Denon freaks out when plugged into that plug strip. Last night, I brought the Denon back downstairs and hooked it back to the PSBs and lost the main channels within 2 minutes again. I tried the Monitor Audio speakers, but they did the same thing (when in the living room). Then I swapped speaker cables. Same result. (I was happy the PSB's weren't to "blame" at this point). I tried unhooking the other channels since it had been working in 2.0 all weak as part of my 2nd system. I was kind of baffled at this point since I had essentially brought everything from upstairs down at this point, but then it hit me that it was plugged into a different surge protector. I swapped that and it was fine. I swapped back to the PSBs and have had the Denon on and playing (sometimes quite loud) for almost 24 hours. All seems well.

Most of my surge protectors are ancient. I think it might be time to invest in some new ones.
Under-rated/overtaxed surge protectors have been known to create problems similar to yours. Either update to a higher quality surge protector that is capable of handling the watt requirements of the Denon and ALL included equipment or simply do away with the surge protector and get a power strip that meets the power requirements of ALL the equipment plugged into it. "All" is the all important factor.

Glad to hear that it at least didn't involve faulty PSB speakers. smile.gif
post #4224 of 5482
I just received my Imagine Minis and added them as rear surrounds. The rear surrounds lit up compared to the old Klipsch's that I was using. The Imagine minis blended perfectly with the Imagine S surrounds in bipolar mode. Now I have a complete PSB speaker set with T2's, C, B's as front wides and the S/Mini for the surrounds. I can now understand what the reviewers of the imagine line were saying when they described the sound as "Seamless". I can appreciate "timbre matching" now as the Klipsch's added sound that did not complement the PSB's. The same thing happened when I ran mirages with the PSB's when I was in the process of getting the speakers. For the wides- the B's add to the T2's without standing out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ I have Imagine Minis for rear surrounds.  IMO, any of the models you mention will do just fine.  I am rarely aware of any substantial contribution to my listening enjoyment that can be attributed to rear surrounds.  If someone disconnected them, it would probably take me weeks before I realized they were silent...
post #4225 of 5482
^^^ I can't imagine Klipsch' and PSBs in the same setup. I'm sure you are experiencing sonic nirvana now. smile.gif
post #4226 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by larkowski1 View Post

Most of my surge protectors are ancient. I think it might be time to invest in some new ones.

I have recently switched from surge protectors to Panamax power managers. More expensive than the surge protectors I was using but I am happy with the result. Plus I like the fact that I am actually getting the protection I thought I was getting from the surge protectors along with line conditioning and noise filtering. As an added bonus, with the push of a button I can completely shut everything down (after I have powered off the individual components so they shut down properly). This saves on the electric bill as I no longer have all these components drawing standby power when no one is home.
post #4227 of 5482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

^^^ I can't imagine Klipsch' and PSBs in the same setup. I'm sure you are experiencing sonic nirvana now. smile.gif
I know.
I made use of the Klipsch's till I decided to splurge on PSB imagine minis. At one point I took the Klipsch's down and kept the imagine S's in bipole setting. Without rear surrounds, I could hear a big difference. I know a lot of people say that they don't add much, but it does expand the rear surround stage and with the minis, I am now experiencing an enveloping seamless surround that matches the front stage with the towers,center and wides.
The imagine minis are phenomenaI for what they are. I bought them to see if they would sound better than what I had running- if not then I would just return them.
Now I'll be keeping them since they have made a big difference. I will have to save up for another pair to add for DSX Heights and then I should have my 11.2 system complete.
post #4228 of 5482
That's funny. I'm running klipsch rs41 as by rear surrounds in my 5.1 for the time being. Would b4's do the trick?
post #4229 of 5482
I finally got my entire system installed and wired. I had everything but the Imagine S surrounds installed as of Monday, I installed the surrounds last night. My surround speaker placement is not ideal (listening couch is against the back wall of the room, so the surrounds are on the same wall about 5' from me on each side, 2' higher than my ears) but they are still very effective and like rav7ks said they sound matched. I used 16 gauge high end car audio speaker wire for everything for now (I had a spool of it left over from wiring my truck), hopefully we will be buying a house this year so I will wait to make some high end speaker cables until it is a more permanent installation. PSB says that 18 gauge lamp cord is fine, but I have a hard time thinking there isn't a difference with better cables. Overall I am very satisfied with my purchase of the PSB Imagine line. I might want to add more power down the line, but the NAD T757 seems plenty capable of driving them to levels my ears couldn't sustain at -20 dB on the volume level.

I did want to mention the PSB SubSeries 300. Many on here suggest there are better subs for the money, and they may be right, but the SubSeries 300 with the gain set at half rattles my house while watching movies. It seems at home with music as well, I have done some listening from rock to stage productions to (dare I say it) some old school rap, the sub doesn't dominate the sound stage and blends well with the T2 towers.

i attempted to run the audessey calibration last night, but it didn't work well. After doing it's series of whoop sounds it set everything up wrong. The front left was at +12 dB, front right was at -12 dB, the surrounds were equally off. It identified all of the speakers as large, and the distances were very wrong. I went back and changed the settings by ear and tape measure. In the speaker setup I set the T2 towers to small with a crossover setting of 50 HZ, the center and surrounds are also set to small with a crossover setting of 70 HZ. All of the speaker levers are set to 0 dB and it sounds pretty balanced.

The only thing remaining to purchase is a good surge protector/line filter. I was looking at the Panamax M8-AV-PRO, but a friend of mine in the AV business recommended something from APC instead. I was looking at the APC G5blk for $125 on Amazon http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=G5BLK it looks kind of like the Panamax 4300 but appears to have more options and settings for delayed outlets. I can't find anywhere in the specs how many of the outlets are isolated, or how many banks. Panamax seems to be much more forthcoming with this information, likely because they use it as an advertising tool. Anyone have advise on these?
post #4230 of 5482
That APC unit doesn't say anything about protecting from low voltage situations (brown outs) which the Panamax does. I have 2 of the Panamax M4300-PM models. They provide plenty of protection but do not incrementally power up individual components like the APC does. However, if you use a Harmony remote you can program start up delay times into the settings. The Panamax M4300-PM is currently on sale for $200 (it's usually $340). http://www.crutchfield.com/p_299M4300PM/Panamax-M4300-PM.html?search=Panamax+VENDORID299&searchdisplay=Panamax
Edited by mlundy57 - 2/25/13 at 1:38pm
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