Mitsubishi's laser HDTV to debut - Page 5

This is a confusing time now. SED sounds very interesting but when? And HOW MUCH? If SED is all that why would Toshiba put out a 55" 1080P SED TV that exceeds all other technologies significantly and then drop a $4k price tag on it when a 58" 720P Panny Plasma goes for $5300? Regardless, it sounds like it's at least 1-2 years away.

The demo of the Mits Laser DLP as stated from hdtvexpert said:

"Not surprisingly, the demo RPTV had plenty of speckle, not to mention over-saturated greens and reds. The speckle from the lasers was aggravated by the natural grain of the micro lenses in the rear-projection screen. The images were about as bright as those on conventional RPTVs, but the combination of speckle and the interference patterns with the RP screen's lenses resulted in some pretty soft-looking HD clips."

So I'd have to guess that laser dlps are going to their own set of issues from the start.

As far as LED DLPs go, LED sounds nice as far as fixing issues with the bulb. However, I've not heard anything to lead me to believe the picture quality will be any better. I thought I heard the contrast ratio of the LED DLPs will only be 2500:1 which is four times lower than the current bulbs. Meaning that black levels and brightness probably won't be as good. And if that's the case, why would I want to pay more for an LED DLP when the standard bulbs outperform them?

yeah I know that is how I'm feeling about the upcoming Samsung 5679 LED dlp.

I mean we wont know until it comes out and we see it and compare but sounds like its going to be lower contrast ratio so that definately isn't worth paying more for less.

unless its like your just paying for the longer lasting bulbs. its kind of akin to buying a hybrid car (though with current gas prices i wish i did) that you pay a premium on but then it actually takes you like 5-10 yrs to make back in gas savings what you paid extra for the car in the first place, i dunno.

yeah i read that about the Mits laser hdtv so that sounds way way off with lots to work out between the inferior picture and all the electronics of it needing this huge bottom base

SED does sound good and they've said they will price it same as plasma which by then plasmas will be even less so while it sounds too good to be true SED is most promising and will probably put plasma out of business. we'll see

in the meantime i have an old ED plasma that has the usual connections and pc input but only component for hd no dvi or hdmi. i got an older 60 panny rp lcd with dvi and i have a philips ambilight 42" plasma with hdmi

I think i want to get the 56" pedestal dlp just for the nostalgia of it since they dont make it anymore and i always liked the design but that will eventually go in basement or something because i want to upgrade the 60" panny with speakers on the side ideally with something bigger but all screen no speakers on the side and thin bezel. My current is 65" across so i can maybe do the 71" sammy dlp as its only 65.8 width but thatss pushing it.

Ideally would probably be 65" or so and maybe i can go with lcos at that point if i get the pedestal dlp. i like ot mix it up and dont have any dlp but prob wouldn't get a second color wheel dlp. i'd get lcos i guess or wait for 2nd gen improved lcd dlp but if i'm really smart and patient I'll just get the pedestal dlp in the next 6 mo or so and then wait for SED and see what is best at that point.

There was a showing of the technology in Sydney Australia today:

http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-6124463.html?tag=tb

The TV preferred by four out of five evil geniuses
October 10, 2006 12:52 PM PDT

Forget mirrors and liquid crystal on silicon. The future of rear-projection TVs might be all about "frickin' laser beams."

In Sydney on Tuesday, Aussie chipmaker Arasor International and Silicon Valley-based Novalux showed off what they're calling the first laser-projection TV. Mitsubishi built the prototype with Arasor's optoelectronic chip and Novalux's laser-projection device inside, and says it's expecting to sell the first models in December 2007.

Novalux predicts that this new technology will uproot plasma's dominance in the 40 inches and larger category of high-definition TVs because it will be half the price, consume less power and show more detail than standard plasma and liquid crystal display (LCD) TVs, according to News.com.au. More detail comes from more color--laser TVs will show 90 percent of the possible colors the human eye can pick up, according to Novalux.

Sony and Samsung are working on similar technology. Though none have officially announced pricing yet, Novalux says TVs with its laser technology will sell for less than $1,000.

Even Dr. Evil would be impressed by that.

yeah but how soon till it is available? not soon enough.

they claimed sed would be cheaper then plasma and flat lcd even in the beginning but then changed that to just not at first.

looking to get a new 62'' or larger 1080p soon or as late as jan and nothing new is going to be out. no sed no laser and not even led dlp in that size which is too expensive anyway.

prob just end up with the samsung hls6767 but am tired of casing it usesfrom last year and would prefer this years thinner glossy black bezel but it is a costco model and if jumping to 67'' have to save somehow though unless I can save tax and shipping by picking up in neiboring state with no tax about 45 min to hour away its still going to be a lot if I have to pay tax and shipping though maybe ordering online from costco would be only shipping?

might look at a toshiba 62 dlp model I saw as it looks better then the mitsu 65 dlp but 62 might no be enough and its funny that toshiba puts out a dlp when they are supposed to be making sed's with cannon

Hi

I work with lasers and am also in the market for a front projector. I had a look at the novalux site and I think the presentation on their site will answer many of your questions about the problems of lasers.

See /assets/downloads/Lasers_in_Projection.pdf on the novalux site (sorry i can't post the link)
There is also a picture of a laser tv in the presentation compared to one using a bulb, which was made by another laser manufacturer called coherent.

Basically they are tackling the speckle problem by using arrays of lasers (each has a slightly different frequency causing the speckle to average out). They are also pulsing the lasers which broadens the spectrum and reduces speckle. The main motivation for pulsed operation is higher efficiency production of visible light, as they start with an infrared laser diode and perform non-linear conversion to get visible.

If mitsubishi are not using the novalux lasers it wouldn't surprise me that their displays were dim. The achievemnt by novalux of 3 watts output of visible light from a small package is quite amazing. (We have a 5 watt green laser in our lab that weighs about 40kg and needs water cooling).

In my view, they have a product that will make an amazing laser tv/ projector. The question that remains is whether they can scale to mass production and get the cost down. (they estimate the cost for thei lasers at $80 if they make 1 million in a year)

Brad

Novalux has a very clever way of making their visible laser diodes so that they can use standard silicon chip manufacturing techniques. The brain behind the technolgoy is Dr. Aram Mooradian. You can google his name and get an idea of his background. You might also google the term NECSEL.

Brad,
Couple questions...


Is the non-linear conversion in the silicon or in an external filter? Also why do you think the red is lagging behind the blue and green?

They quote a conversion efficiency of 15% and that means that the chip itself is generating near 20W of heat. That means they need a pretty hefty heat sink for a small device. It sounds like to me that there is still an issue of adequate ventilation for a TV based on these device. What is your opinion?

POTENTIAL SCAM: Mitsubishi is denying that it has anything to do with the Arasor Demo in Sydney Australia, was not invited to attend, knows nothing about the technology. Marshall, the Aussie who is the founder of Arasor, is not returning media calls asking for a response. Looks like this might be just a financial flim flam. Go to Smarthouse.com an Australian site, and read the whole article. You can also find it by doing a search on Google News. Someone might want to provide a link to the article. Looks like they may be just a group of con artists.

Don't know about Arasor but Novalux is for real.

Article in today's Sydney Morning Herald. Google it. They contacted a lot of manufacturers, including Samsung, and Pioneer. None have any plans to produce Laser TVs. Mitsubishi has denied any knowledge of the claims made about they being involved. So the claims made by Arasor in Conjunction With Novalux of all these companys already set to produce Laser Panels next year is just Lies. Arasor was set to have an IPO on Australian Exchange today, but now it has been postponed. When a company starts out trying to inflate the demand for it's first stock release by lying about which TV manufacturers are involved, then it is impossible to give any credence to their technology performance claims either.

Again, I don't doubt that your information on Arasor is accurate. But Novalux is for real and is working with manufacturers. I haven't heard Novalux make claims about when though. Look for Unaxis for instance for an accurate data point.

Did you actually read the article from the SMH? Do you have an agenda against this tech (which is why you didn't actually link it?)? The article states that several companies are not pursuing it because of extensive investment in plasma.

The delay in the IPO is strictly a procedural issue.

They restate that Mitsu is working on it, and I am sure they fact-check:

Too bad the good people here, don't. In fact, I can find no mention that Mitsubishi has denied being involved. How about someone provide a link? Oh, I found it: Smarthouse.com.au:

Just because Mitsubishi Australia doesn't know what the parent company is doing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. May have been bad form, but hardly conspiracy making. Mind you, this is the only article that states anything like that, and the main story was covered by the national news there.

Keith

Sydney Morning Herald has also run an article questioning Arasor claims. They contacted Samsung and other companies. All denied any knowledge of being involved in Arasor Laser TV plans. They have tried to get Arasor to comment on what they found but Larry Marshall and others are not even returning their calls. As for you asking about my agenda. I was the one who first posted the news about the Arasor Demo on both the Flat Panel and Rear Projection forms, so I was actually excited about the claims being made, but when their is breaking news that casts a lot of doubt on what Arasor claims just before they issue an Australian IPO, I feel it is the responsible thing for me to keep readers of the forums up todate.

Arasor said that Mitsubishi and Samsung were going to bring Laser Panels to market in 2007 which included Arasor technology. Both Companies have denied that they have any such arrangements with Arasor. That is enough for me to doubt Arasor's other technology performance claims. If they are making false claims about having Mitsubishi and Samsung on board, then all else that they claim is equally suspect. Enough with this agenda accusations crap. Google, Arasor SED, and then click on the Google News option, and you will see what a reputable Sydney, Australian Newspaper is reporting.

Finally: Arasor.com has got plenty of news releases about their demonstration claims, and even video demonstrations of the show they put on, and the claims they made. The last update they posted was ten days ago. How strange that they took the new reports that just parroted back what Arasor told them at the Demonstration and got them up on their website promptly, but as of today not a word posted or any new release on the Arasor website about the questions that the media has raised this week about the veracity of their production affiliations.

Mitsubishi is a HUGE collection of companies.

There are many Mitsubishi companies all over the World, and just because one of them doesn't know what every other one is doing is quite to be expected, I would have thought.

I hope Novalux can deliver on these expectations. I won't be too surprised if they don't make the Christmas 2007 timescale, but I reckon there are some seriously good front projectors to come out of this, too.

Nick

I was talking to a Mitsubishi rep today at the grand opening of a Fry's here in Atlanta today that said the they will "have a laser based RPTV out in the fall of '07" when I asked him if they planned any LED base RPTVs. I asked him if it was Novalux based and he did not know. I did not press him on it since I was really not there to look a Mits.

Of course it's not much, but the Jan 07 issue of Popular Science has a one page (p.24) article about the Mitsubishi 'laser'. It speaks of 'laser TVs late this year (07).'

john

Sorry just trying to get to 5.

Hopefully we will see a debut at CES?

Yes, CES 2008 if Mitsubishi gets lucky.

I am hoping to see it in a couple weeks..

At the very least, I bet we see some 80+ inch 1080p RPTVs with new JVC LCOS
and .95 in. DMDs... Maybe even an 80 in. Sony RPTV with new and improved
SXRD panels..

Go for it.

If this wasn't posted already. Dated (11/20/2006)

http://www.bcheights.com/media/stora....bcheights.com

The article didn't sound like Mitsubishi demonstrated their new technology even though there was this sentence in the lead paragraph.

"Last week, Mitsubishi unveiled its new laser TV to the public."

If they do have one at CES this year maybe Mitsubishi can get them in stores for next Christmas. On the other hand, if they have "unveiled" a press release, then it may take them longer.

It seems I've misunderstood what Mitsubishi was up to. I thought the laser light source was to be used in a DLP RPTV. The article left me not understanding how Mitsubishi can use laser to get an image onto a screen in a case that is thinner than a plasma TV.

"Instead of using the current norm of white light mercury lamps, the laser TV uses red, blue, and green lasers to generate images on the screen. The new laser TV will be lighter and thinner than a comparably sized plasma TV and will produce brighter and crisper images, all at half the cost."

If I understand what Mitsubishi is doing then substituting DLP RPTV for "plasma TV" in the above statement would work for me.

Just you guessing or do you have a source?

The article is confusing and may Mitsubishi helped them be confused, but I'm pretty sure this is the laser illuminated DLP set they have been showing for about 6 months. By "helping them be confused," I think Mits is trying to market this as a new category of sets. The want it to be a "laser TV" rather than a "projection TV."

With laser illumination, they can make the sets thinner (due to the optical properties of lasers it is easier to make a thinner set).

I don't think that the advantages of lasers is fully appreciated. It is a lot more than just the pure color light, long life, and instant on. The lasers have near zero entendue which (without going into the technical details) let them be use with cheaper optics and they can have shorter throw distances. Furthermore, while Mits is using them with DLPs, the biggest advantage in using laser illumination will be realized by using LCOS light modulators (requires 1/3rd the laser power).

One third compared to what and why? (out of curiousity) And while we are on the subject of performance, I know it has been discussed before but how do they handle the "speckling" of laser light.

I was a bit simple with my response; I will try to elaborate.

The assumption is based on a single chip DLP with a switched laser versus a 3 chip LCOS system with constant illumination. Granted there could be 3-chip DLPs but these will cost much more due to the cost of the DLPs and the fact that the optical system for a 3-chip DLP is inherently much more expensive than a 3-chip LCOS system. Thus I was comparing a single chip DLP to a 3-Chip LCOS that would be in roughly the same price ballpark.

Unlike LEDs that can be driven harder for a shorter duty cycle and thus make up for some of the field sequential loss, most lasers cannot. Thus when they switch the laser off for the field sequential illumination, they loose about 1/3rd of the light.

There are several tricks to reduce speckle. Novalux uses multiple laser emitters such that while each emitter is coherent, they are not coherent with each other and this reduces speckle. They also use "spectral broadening" with is a fancy way of saying that they don't have all the frequency shifter of the multiple laser sources tuned to exactly the same wavelength. The even with some spectral broadening the laser light is still vastly more saturated that a filtered white light source or phosphors. There is also a trick that I have seen of using a rotating optical element that is suppose to change the coherency. The key thing is to reduce the coherency (which is why it has speckle) without hurting the etendue significantly such as by diffusion.

Interesting. Dealing with speckle is almost like dealing with SSE (albeit a different mechanism) when evaluating the "watchability" of a display system. Given the critical nature of the forum members here (not that that is a bad thing), there will undoubtibly be a measure of or an evaluation of the "speckle factor" for laser based tvs. Regardless I think these laser based tvs are fascinating and it will be interesting to see how they play out in the marketplace.

If laser-based displays will be using DLPs, will there be rainbows?

Rainbows are not "directly" related to the type of chip. A set based on LCoS, LCD, or DLP using one chip with a color wheel at speeds under 30K RPM will result in rainbows for some people.

The method of creating color with LED and laser light sources is too fast for anyone to see rainbows. Fear not!