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Samsung 1080p Owner's Thread --- HLSxx87W/HLSxx88W DLP Models - Page 267

post #7981 of 21315
9/30/06 at 8:21pm
NM i put the specs up side by side at the samsung www site and i think the only difference is the 88 has cable card. you may want to double check.

i just pulled the trigger on a 6187 due to BB's weekend sale. can anyone point me to a post of optimum recommended settings, and a self-calibration DVD recommendation? i didn't come up with anything specific in a search. thanks!
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post #7982 of 21315
9/30/06 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NM156 View Post

I'm looking into getting a a new TV. I was set on plasma first, but after seeing some Samsung DLP's I am hooked.

One thing I haven't been able to figure out is, what's the difference between the xx87's and the xx88's?

Well the 88s have cable card, but the big difference in my book is that the 88s can do 1:1 pixel mapping.

- Collin
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post #7983 of 21315
9/30/06 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybercowboy View Post

Finally my 6187 shipped from Amazon and should be here, uh, between the 2nd and 20th. LOL

Anybody here have the Motorola DCT6412 digital cable DVR? This is the one my cable company gave me and it's pretty nice. I'm trying to decide whether or not I should buy a DVI to HDMI cable for it. It doesn't have an HDMI output, just DVI and Firewire and of course component/SVideo/composite. Does anybody have their 6412 DVR connected to their Sammy via the DVI connection? Monoprice has a 6' cable for $5 so I'm going to get one regardless but just wanted to see if it's a known "good way" to connect this DVR. Otherwise I'll have to go composite.

I purchased the DVI/HDMI adapter and then got the HDMI cable, all from Monoprice. That way, I won't be stuck with an out of date DVI/HDMI cable, since it is highly unlikely that I will ever have the need for DVI again. Picture is great.
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post #7984 of 21315
9/30/06 at 8:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by collinp View Post

Well the 88s have cable card, but the big difference in my book is that the 88s can do 1:1 pixel mapping.

- Collin

I'm a little dense when it comes to the technical lingo What good is 1:1 pixel mapping? I'm guessing it produces a crisper image?

Is there much image quality difference between 87's and 88's?

Based on the specs on the Samsung site, it looks like some other differences are that only the 88 has PIP, a better remote, and firewire support. Is this correct?

It sounds like CableCards still don't do 2-way communications. Is this true for the 88's?

Thanks!
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post #7985 of 21315
9/30/06 at 9:03pm
so i went with my wife and son to hopefully get the nod on buying a samsung 6187 from azon and we were able to check out the 6187 against the bishi 57 and 65 inch dlp's as well as the sony sxbr 60. i've got to tell you we stood there for 20 minutes going back and forth, and i was hard pressed to tell much of a discernable difference in picture quality. maybe a teensy weensy edge to the sammy over the bishi on sharpness, maybe the sony was a snitch better, but basically we walked away thinking all are amazing screens. given that, i walk away thinking i should get the cheapest of those which i think right now is the sammy at azon. am i nuts or somehow missing something? are there big differences in reliability or other factors?
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post #7986 of 21315
9/30/06 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NM156 View Post

I'm a little dense when it comes to the technical lingo What good is 1:1 pixel mapping? I'm guessing it produces a crisper image?

1:1 pixel mapping is the ability for 1 pixel in the 1080p source to light up 1 and only 1 pixel in the 1080p imager. This can be enabled on the 88s by disabling overscan in the service menu. On the 78s your 1080p input will actually be scaled before it hits the imager.

1:1 pixel mapping means a sharper picture for 1080p sources like scalers and blue laser DVD players.

- Collin
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post #7987 of 21315
9/30/06 at 10:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post

so i went with my wife and son to hopefully get the nod on buying a samsung 6187 from azon and we were able to check out the 6187 against the bishi 57 and 65 inch dlp's as well as the sony sxbr 60. i've got to tell you we stood there for 20 minutes going back and forth, and i was hard pressed to tell much of a discernable difference in picture quality. maybe a teensy weensy edge to the sammy over the bishi on sharpness, maybe the sony was a snitch better, but basically we walked away thinking all are amazing screens. given that, i walk away thinking i should get the cheapest of those which i think right now is the sammy at azon. am i nuts or somehow missing something? are there big differences in reliability or other factors?

I noticed a huge difference myself between those 3 sets. All were quite good though just in different ways. Since I am in the samsung thread I'll let you guess which one I bought. :-)
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post #7988 of 21315
9/30/06 at 10:38pm
I've tried both overscan and off. There is a slight edge to picture quality with overscan off, but it was very little in my opinion. Not everyone will have the same problems as me but I definitely found that while overcan off provided an only slight advantage in picture quality, it caused other issues (visible garbage on edges, the perception of more pincushioning, difficulty centering image without running out of image...i had tiny black bars on the edges of stretched 4:3 because they wouldn't reach all the way). I think it depends on what STB is hooked up too. Some maybe better at output than others. That's the only thing I can think of as other people haven't complained.
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post #7989 of 21315
9/30/06 at 10:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by collinp View Post

Station logos are a pretty inaccurate pattern for centering adjustments. Assuming your DVD player doesn't have significant pixel cropping issues, a test disc like DVE or Avia would be much more accurate. The centering settings are global so they should apply regardless of the input/format. Another alternative would be to use the patterns broadcast weekly by HDNet for centering.

Is there a threshold where Samsung has to do something about it? Probably not. I think it's near impossible to install the light engine in such away that you can't correct centering with plenty of headroom in the settings. I've never seen a set that came close to maxing out the centering settings.

- Collin

You're probably right, but I don't think the service menu adjustments are accurate either. I found that 0 on the vertical setting leaves a large black bar on the top...so you see the top edge of the image. 60, which is ending for adjustment never reaches the bottom edge of the picture. Mine is at 40, 2/3 of the setting, and that gets me to just see the bottoms of the logos, as well as allows for only 1 cm difference between top and bottom black bars on widescreen DVDs. This tells me that if the image is completely centered using the methods you describe above I'll have the logs cut off, if that makes sense. It also wouldn't be near the theoretical vertical center of 30. Even the little blue patter that the TV puts out isn't even close to center at 30, which it should be according to their scale. I'm probably missing something but that's what it looks like
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post #7990 of 21315
10/1/06 at 3:09am
ok, so I know theres a few differences in the HL-S6188W model and the 87. This will be my first tv and im doing tons of reading. With the 88 model it requires a cablecard correct? Ive been reading on these cards, and from my understanding you cant get video on demand. that could be a problem for me because I love ordering fights off pay per view. what do you guys think? maybe just get the 87 model and use cable top box.. or I could get the 88 and go with sat. I also am confused on the satellite services. for HD channels I thought you just call the dish network and they will come install everything and put up a antenna. if thats the case why do I see everyone buying upgraded ones
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post #7991 of 21315
10/1/06 at 4:33am
Hi, I've just joined as well, expecting a 5688W delivery on Wednesday. Thanks for all the contributions on the forum, so much to learn! I'm getting a cablecard installed, just to try it out. I'm looking for guidance on what additional equipment to buy - some special type of surge protector? something to enhance quality of non-HD channels? HD DVD or blu-ray? Thanks for any suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by l8rh8r View Post

With the 88 model it requires a cablecard correct?

My understanding is, you don't have to use the cablecard, you can use the cablebox from your cable company if you prefer that.

(Someone asked above re: Bell'O stands. I bought the Bell'O AVS-9855HG from Circuit City, I like the design, looks great and very easy to assemble.)
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post #7992 of 21315
10/1/06 at 5:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post

so i went with my wife and son to hopefully get the nod on buying a samsung 6187 from azon and we were able to check out the 6187 against the bishi 57 and 65 inch dlp's as well as the sony sxbr 60. i've got to tell you we stood there for 20 minutes going back and forth, and i was hard pressed to tell much of a discernable difference in picture quality. maybe a teensy weensy edge to the sammy over the bishi on sharpness, maybe the sony was a snitch better, but basically we walked away thinking all are amazing screens. given that, i walk away thinking i should get the cheapest of those which i think right now is the sammy at azon. am i nuts or somehow missing something? are there big differences in reliability or other factors?

what you describe is very similar to my experience. also, from what i've read, you are not going to see the full potential of any set until you get it home and tweaked. so it is really impossible to make an accurate comparison in the store. i think any of these sets is going to look great in the house, away from comparisons.

i thought the sony might have been barely better, but was concerned about the green screen issues and didn't think the PQ was $500 better than the sammy. i almost got the mits because of the slightly larger screen size and flat black cabinet, but went with the sammy because overall i've read more favorable reviews on it and i thought it looked a little bit better than the mits.

good luck with your pick. i'll get my set today and hopefully can find out how to optimally set it up.
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post #7993 of 21315
10/1/06 at 6:00am
Quote:


the 88s can do 1:1 pixel mapping.

Quote:


On the 78s your 1080p input will actually be scaled before it hits the imager.

Just why does turning overscan have anything to do with pixel mapping? Why can't you have a 1:1 w/o overscan? All that means is the edges are cut off. The only place I would think where it would make any difference would be a computer output where you have control just how large the image is (within reason depending on your card).
Unless, I'm really missing something here.

mikeynavy1; Have you tried it w/o the cable box?
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post #7994 of 21315
10/1/06 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Just why does turning overscan have anything to do with pixel mapping? Why can't you have a 1:1 w/o overscan? All that means is the edges are cut off. The only place I would think where it would make any difference would be a computer output where you have control just how large the image is (within reason depending on your card).
Unless, I'm really missing something here.

mikeynavy1; Have you tried it w/o the cable box?

The service menu overscan setting being on causes a scaling operation to discard a few percent of the outer edge of the image pixels and rescaling the remaining pixels to fill out the image. That 'simulates' overscan but destroys the 1:1 pixel mapping.
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post #7995 of 21315
10/1/06 at 6:51am
Understood, but I was looking at the 'overscan' issue this way.
There would be two ways to look at this. If a 1:1 is the full area of the chip, reducing the size from overscan to non-overscan (for lack of a better term) could/would ruin the 1;1 mapping. Or, the other way around where when it isn't reduced 1:1 is achieved (with overscan).
Hope that made sense.
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post #7996 of 21315
10/1/06 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Understood, but I was looking at the 'overscan' issue this way.
There would be two ways to look at this. If a 1:1 is the full area of the chip, reducing the size from overscan to non-overscan (for lack of a better term) could/would ruin the 1;1 mapping. Or, the other way around where when it isn't reduced 1:1 is achieved (with overscan).
Hope that made sense.

Hypothetically... it would be possible to transpose the meaning but then the setting should be 'underscan' instead of 'overscan'. A alternating line pattern of white/black lines 1 pixel wide would prove it.... But when the pros tell us that 'off' restores 1:1, I believe them since they likely can generate the full resolution test pattern with their test equipment. The statement in the cnet review of not resolving the entire 1080 resolution is most likely via the pattern I mentioned and probably due to overscan being on.
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post #7997 of 21315
10/1/06 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

Just why does turning overscan have anything to do with pixel mapping? Why can't you have a 1:1 w/o overscan? All that means is the edges are cut off. The only place I would think where it would make any difference would be a computer output where you have control just how large the image is (within reason depending on your card).
Unless, I'm really missing something here.

mikeynavy1; Have you tried it w/o the cable box?


Well I've also taken a look at it with a widescreen DVD. I actually do think it is something with the STB and the way it broadcasts. I have a Pioneer Voyager STB (not DVR) that doesn't look to be the best. When I look at a DVD on my Panasonic S97 upconvert DVD player (widescreen with bars) the image is close to center but a little smaller black bar on top than bottom. That is why I think it may be the STB or something to do with how the TV is receiving the STB broadcast. I haven't heard of any other complaints, and it looks like a vast majority of people either have DirecTV or the Scientific Atlanta 8300 DVR.
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post #7998 of 21315
10/1/06 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeynavy1 View Post

Well I've also taken a look at it with a widescreen DVD. I actually do think it is something with the STB and the way it broadcasts. I have a Pioneer Voyager STB (not DVR) that doesn't look to be the best. When I look at a DVD on my Panasonic S97 upconvert DVD player (widescreen with bars) the image is close to center but a little smaller black bar on top than bottom. That is why I think it may be the STB or something to do with how the TV is receiving the STB broadcast. I haven't heard of any other complaints, and it looks like a vast majority of people either have DirecTV or the Scientific Atlanta 8300 DVR.

Werent the Pioneer Voyager's the very first HD STB's?? You might want to trade it in for a Scientific Atlanta 3250HD.
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post #7999 of 21315
10/1/06 at 9:44am
Go to this poll and vote!
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post #8000 of 21315
10/1/06 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam642000 View Post

Hi, I've just joined as well, expecting a 5688W delivery on Wednesday. Thanks for all the contributions on the forum, so much to learn! I'm getting a cablecard installed, just to try it out. I'm looking for guidance on what additional equipment to buy - some special type of surge protector? something to enhance quality of non-HD channels? HD DVD or blu-ray? Thanks for any suggestions.



My understanding is, you don't have to use the cablecard, you can use the cablebox from your cable company if you prefer that.

(Someone asked above re: Bell'O stands. I bought the Bell'O AVS-9855HG from Circuit City, I like the design, looks great and very easy to assemble.)

You are not required to use a cablecard on the '88s. You can use a standard cable box if you'd like. Some folks just enjoy reducing the equipment in their rack.
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post #8001 of 21315
10/1/06 at 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodn'Reel View Post

I have the 6188W and Oppo 970. A week from today I am getting a Lumagen processor and ISF calibration. I will use the 480i from the Oppo to feed straight into the Lumagen so it can do all the scaling etc. The Oppo won't do any upconverting. This is my strategy to get the BEST PQ possible from the SD DVD's and SD TV with the Sammy. I'm hoping the Lumagen helps the HD too.

Any flaws to or suggested improvements to this "strategery"? Thank you, thank you very much.

Completed calibration, Lumagen HDQ processor install, program new remote and other work yesterday. I loved it before but am now totally impressed. Calibration makes such a difference in the colors, shadows, etc. And the Lumagen adds a great deal to SD TV and SD DVD's. SD channels that looked not-so-hot now look way better. Very satisfied that I have an unbeatable combo for the money and for years to come. Can't wait to show the kids in our traditional Sunday family movie night.

By the way, I returned 2 HDMI cables yesterday and had the chance to look at the new Mitsu 65" 832's and again look at the Sony A2000. Nice sets, but the Sammy still has them both beat even without calibration in my opinion. Plus, the Sammy looks so much better IMO. No remorse at all.

Cheers.

Oh, by the way, for those stuck in Central/West Coast of Florida low-tech hell, try Barry Vandenberg with Orlando Digital TV. http://www.orlandodigital.tv/hardware.htm or barryatorlandodigitaltvdotcom. He was patient and knows his stuff man.
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post #8002 of 21315
10/1/06 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybercowboy View Post

Finally my 6187 shipped from Amazon and should be here, uh, between the 2nd and 20th. LOL

Anybody here have the Motorola DCT6412 digital cable DVR? This is the one my cable company gave me and it's pretty nice. I'm trying to decide whether or not I should buy a DVI to HDMI cable for it. It doesn't have an HDMI output, just DVI and Firewire and of course component/SVideo/composite. Does anybody have their 6412 DVR connected to their Sammy via the DVI connection? Monoprice has a 6' cable for $5 so I'm going to get one regardless but just wanted to see if it's a known "good way" to connect this DVR. Otherwise I'll have to go composite.

I have the Motorola 3416 (a new verson of the 3412) and it has HDMI. I tried both the HDMI and component connections as saw little difference, The HDMI might have had a slighlt longer dealy, but not much.

Anybody know who to program the Sammy Remote for the Motorola box? I like both havre both work just in case
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post #8003 of 21315
10/1/06 at 3:56pm
Just curious. I just noticed this yesterday, so I don't know if something changed on my TV or not. On 4:3 material it is normal to have vertical pincushioning. I just noticed horizontal pincushioning on a broadcast where the image didn't go all the way to the top (where they intentially put top and bottom black bars). I could see a slight bow in the top of the image. I've had the TV long enough to know I never saw that before. Do RPTVs have vertical and horizontal pincushioning?
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post #8004 of 21315
10/1/06 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodn'Reel View Post

Completed calibration, Lumagen HDQ processor install, program new remote and other work yesterday. I loved it before but am now totally impressed. Calibration makes such a difference in the colors, shadows, etc. And the Lumagen adds a great deal to SD TV and SD DVD's. SD channels that looked not-so-hot now look way better. Very satisfied that I have an unbeatable combo for the money and for years to come. Can't wait to show the kids in our traditional Sunday family movie night.

By the way, I returned 2 HDMI cables yesterday and had the chance to look at the new Mitsu 65" 831's and again look at the Sony A2000. Nice sets, but the Sammy still has them both beat even without calibration in my opinion. Plus, the Sammy looks so much better IMO. No remorse at all.

Cheers.

Oh, by the way, for those stuck in Central/West Coast of Florida low-tech hell, try Barry Vandenberg with Orlando Digital TV. http://www.orlandodigital.tv/hardware.htm or barryatorlandodigitaltvdotcom. He was patient and knows his stuff man.

That's the way to do it. If you take one of these displays, calibrate it, and run everything through an outboard scaler via 1:1 pixel mapping you're really in for some of the best PQ on the market. You need to spend some serious money on a top end front projector to rival it. The rear projection engine combined with wobulation creates an extremely film-like image. The CCA colorimetry engine in these sets allows your colors to precisely match those of a pro-grade mastering monitor. My set is fully calibrated and I run all my video through a DVDO VP50 before it hits the display. On this set up a well mastered SD DVD looks as good or better than 90% of the HD programming I've got saved on the Tivo. This is on a 720p set. I can't even imagine what you're seeing on a 1080p set.

- Collin
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post #8005 of 21315
10/1/06 at 5:21pm
How much extra is it for all the extra equipment? I just looked at Lumagen's web site and their boxes cost half of the TV. Are there alternatives?
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post #8006 of 21315
10/1/06 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeynavy1 View Post

How much extra is it for all the extra equipment? I just looked at Lumagen's web site and their boxes cost half of the TV. Are there alternatives?

Calibration is essential. An outboard video processor is more of a nice to have depending on budget. Yeah, a processor will run you half the price of the set or more, though it's not uncommon for a receiver or pre-pro to run about this much. We're still talking about sub $10K home theater systems, which are at the low end of the spectrum. I mean check out this guy's theater http://theater.stevejenkins.com/gallery/complete/ .

Alternatives could be to look for a used scaler or check out B-stock deals. Older scalers will be nearly as good at at SD deinterlacing, but high quality 1080i deinterlacing is pretty new and it will cost you. I must say, though, that the 1080i deinterlacing in my VP50 is jaw dropping.

Edit : Oh, and every now and then, usually around the time of a new processor launch AVS will offer some pretty steep discounts on the new processor. That's how I got my first DVDO.

- Collin
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post #8007 of 21315
10/1/06 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocko1290 View Post

Do the 87/88's accept 1080p60? If so, what inputs do they accept 1080p60 over?


Sorry to ask again but does this also mean over VGA? I cannot find anything in the specs on this.
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post #8008 of 21315
10/1/06 at 9:09pm
Does anyone here know who the admin is or how I can contact him/her? This Pexster individual is becoming most taxing with his insistent PMs regarding racism. Its as if I was thrown back into 7th grade and the kids were fighting over where each of them gets to sit at the lunch table! Most tiresome, especially since this sad individuall has nothing of value to discuss. Either way, does anyone know how i can get ahold of an admin to get him blocked? Thanks in advance. Cheers!
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post #8009 of 21315
10/1/06 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bored28 View Post

Does anyone here know who the admin is or how I can contact him/her? This Pexster individual is becoming most taxing with his insistent PMs regarding racism. Its as if I was thrown back into 7th grade and the kids were fighting over where each of them gets to sit at the lunch table! Most tiresome, especially since this sad individuall has nothing of value to discuss. Either way, does anyone know how i can get ahold of an admin to get him blocked? Thanks in advance. Cheers!

Whether it's an offensive post or PM, there is an option in the lower left to report it.
In the PM menu, there is also an option to build an "ignore list." I believe that will prevent his PMs from reaching you.
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post #8010 of 21315
10/1/06 at 10:33pm
has anybody attempted to contact samsung about a possible firmware upgrade so overscan can be turned off and stay off on the 87 series...there has to be a way to keep overscan turned off on the 87s....if anybody has contacted samsung i would like to know what they said and if not then i guess it is my turn to call them and see what is up...
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