just picked up a Toshiba RD-XS35 - Page 2

I have a Toshiba RD-XS35 now myself. I had a Pioneer 533, but returned it mainly due to the grinding noise, which was driving me nuts in my bedroom. Even when using the "fake out" zip codes for TVGOS, it kept coming back on the Pioneer, and eventually I couldn't take it (thankfully I had it less than a month, and got a full refund).

I can vouch for the XS35 being extremely quiet. Whatever the "loud fan" problem was about with the XS34, seems to have been fixed for this unit.

Comparing this with the Pioneer, the picture and sound quality seems to be about the same. I'll have to study this more, and of course the Pioneer quality is largely from memory, so hard to say.

Feature-wise, the Toshiba has more complexity than the Pioneer. I found the Pioneer easier to use, though the Toshiba gives me more control. I'm still figuring out the Toshiba. I don't like that some of the Toshiba functions are on a part of the remote control that you have to open up (clamshell lower half of the remote), but there are a LOT of functions, far more than on the Pioneer. Some of this is confusing, even for someone (me) who is usually pretty good at this. For example there are a huge number of settings for recording via the input jacks (well hidden under the front panel, as well as on the back). I'm not sure why the default mode for recording to the HDD was DVD-compatible = "no", but I changed it to "main". I don't even know if that was necessary, but I bet if someone recorded a bunch of stuff to the HDD without knowing about the DVD-compatible mode, then was unable to transfer to DVD-R, they'd be upset. Much longer learning curve for the Tosh, it appears. And it seems there is a way to adjust the color, brightness, tint, etc. even for recording, but maybe not - this will take more time to figure out.

For my needs, the Tosh seems somewhat better than the Pioneer even when ignoring that the Tosh is much quieter (no grinding, although I assume that when Pioneer comes out with a new model this summer, it won't grind either). A lot of what I have is concert footage on VHS, which I want to convert to DVD-R. The Toshiba allows you to record in the high audio quality LPCM mode even beyond a 60 minute length (DVD) recording. The Pioneer allows LPCM, but only for 60 minutes maximum. So if you'd got a 70 minute concert, the Toshiba enables you to record in the highest audio quality (LPCM) without having to split it on to two DVD-Rs (unless you used a dual layer DVD-R on the Pioneer). Also, the Toshiba allows you to name individual chapters, unlike the Pioneer or any other stand alone that I'm aware of. Normally that's a pretty useless feature, but for concert footage it's nice to be able to name the chapters by song title. Also, the Toshiba has extensive menu-making options, much more than the Pioneer had.

One advantage of the Pioneer (other than being easier to use) was that it could record to dual layer DVD-Rs; the Toshiba does not. However, I am not sure how compatible those are among all players, so I was not so interested in dual layer DVD recording anyway (my PC does record dual layer DVD, so if I really wanted to I suppose I could record to the dual layer DVDs that way).

The Toshiba XS34 apparently had digital "time base correction" for input, but I don't think the XS35 has this. TBC is a feature that may be useful for transferring old, overly dubbed VHS tapes to digital. The Pioneers used to have this feature (such as the 510 and 520) although the 533 & 633 did not have it. Evidently they felt that people who wanted to transfer their old homemade VHS tapes to digital had already done so, and people now mainly just record via the tuner or other non-VHS input. But it would have been nice to have this feature, as the XS34 apparently had. (an outboard TBC can be purchased, but that will run about $200 for something like the AVT 8710).

Overall I'm very happy with this. When watching playback at the SP (2 hour) speed, I might be able to see a fast motion "artifact" at times, but I'm not sure this wasn't just the digital satellite input. Mainly the picture is outstanding. I may test for possible complex artifacting via VHS input, but my guess is that it's not going to be a problem (or even at all in evidence). Bottom line is that this is an extremely flexible unit, very complex. More for "techies" than for "grandmas", but I would guess that most people reading this thread are the former, so if you are ready for a long learning curve, this may be the unit for you. There book is long (it's actually a book, more than just a manual) but pretty well written despite the complexity of this unit. I may have more input on this unit in the future, say a month or so from now as I've gotten to use it.

Though I *can* see differences, and is why I use different recording levels for different kinds of recordings, on my XS32 I actually see far fewer MPEG artifacts than I do on my Tivo.

The recordings definitely look different, and I'd probably say overall I like the Tivo's look better for a good input signal.

But basically I'm just trying to say that even at the lowest (1.4) setting, the picture quality with a decent input signal looks good to me. These are usually for things I don't intend to keep.

(I'm experimenting with a 6.0 recording for tonight's 'er', just because I know that will fill the rest of the DVD-R that I have the 2 previous episodes on. I've switched between doing 2 and 3 episodes/DVD a few times. I think one I even have 4 episodes on.. from the past two seasons, some saved from my Tivo from before I had the recorder... 'er' is something I may eventually buy on DVD, but it's fun using a show I'd record anyway to experiment with making DVD-Rs.)

Thanks for the input, Mattack. After observing the Toshiba XS35 some more, I don't even think I saw artifacts. I used the Toshiba to record virtually the entire business day of CNBC, at the SP mode. Since they transmit this via satellite to my cable service, there are occasional digital "jumps" and dropouts, but that's not the recorder's fault - I'd have seen the same if I were watching it live, without a recorder.

The picture on this unit is really outstanding, from all I can tell. The lines are sharp, the colors are beautiful, people look natural, chrome and glass objects have the right "shine", etc. The XS35 has a very good tuner too, so that helps lead to a great picture when recording via the tuner. The picture is so good that sometimes I forget I'm watching a recording and start to wait through the commercials, then realize I can fast forward right through them!

As I said earlier, I want to do some tests with VHS recording, to see how good the picture really is, and if there are actually any artifacts. I know what you mean though at the very low data rates, you can see pixellation when there's fast motion. Actually I haven't seen that on this unit, but I've seen home made DVDs where that's a problem - such as when they try to fit 4 hours of video onto one single layer DVD-R.

Again, this seems to be a great unit, just outstanding. But I don't want to praise it too much and then have someone be disappointed by a problem I have yet to notice, since it's so new to me. About the only things I haven't liked are - the complexity (probably hard to avoid, given all it can do) and the "hidden" buttons on the remote (a very minor "pain" to keep opening and closing the clamshell). And while I like that it can do "time slip", I liked the way that worked better on the Pioneer. With the Pioneer (533), to play back a title being recorded you just selected it from the menu and started playing it, as if it were a completed recording. With the Toshiba, you have to treat a title being recorded differently, using the "time slip" button, skip it back to the beginning of the program, then start watching. And it's not so easy to change from there to one of the other pre-recorded titles. But this is extremely minor, and I wouldn't even have known that there was a slightly easier way to do this, if I hadn't had the Pioneer unit.

Overall though, it's hard for me to imagine a unit with a better picture than this, until we get Blu-Ray or HD-DVD or whatever. And this has all the functionality I want (other than perhaps time base correction, and maybe that's included but not mentioned) - and I'm very demanding about the functionality I want. Plus it's quiet! Still early, but I'm about ready to pronounce this unit a big-time winner. I've been dissatisified with the DVD recorders prior to this year (I know that many people love the Panasonics, but I have to have LPCM audio, and the Panasonics have lacked that), maybe 2006 is finally the year that DVD recorders will be finally "ready for prime time", and this could be the first of several winners.

Thanks for the early report on this model! This is the 1st and only 160GB+ HDD-model released for 2006 so far, so that gives it a head-start over the other un-released and un-announced models.

Speaking of CNBC, one place to notice the effects of the recording modes and/or noise reduction is the ticker at the bottom of the screen. Theoretically the lower the recorded resolution, the faster the ticker moves, the smaller the fonts, and the more aggresive the NR, the lower the quality of the ticker.

No, actually what I was trying to say is that I *haven't* seen pixellation very often..
only with very very very bad signals. (what some would call unwatchable probably)
The picture just seems to get "flatter" a bit. It's just weird that the tuners and encoders in a Tivo and this seem to look so different in the end.. (I think the relative rarity of pixellation is since my XS32's encoder is probably a few years newer than my Tivo's.. but I can't explain why the Tivo recordings generally are more "colorful").

Yeah I made this same complaint, though I never had the Pioneer.

It sounds like the Pioneer works closer to a Tivo in this regard. Basically it doesn't matter if you're watching a currently recorded show or one already recorded.

That actually leads to a slightly off-topic question, only for curiousity's sake..

Do *any* of these "more manual" (for lack of a better term) recorders allow you to DELETE recordings while it is currently recording? Since a Tivo is always recording (for the buffer) of course it needs to.

But it really is a pain (and indirectly is what caused me to hose the hard drive on my XS32 back in October) to not be able to delete recordings while recording.

Currently I change the title to "XXX" if it's currently recording to indicate that I have seen it and I can delete the show at the next opportunity.

That's the strange thing.. It obviously can write to the hard drive while it is currently recording because you can do these things:
rename titles
add chapters to an existing title
do playlist editing (which presumably CREATES a small title that includes the referenced chapters/titles)

There seems to be no real logical reason why it won't let you delete a recording while it's recording (nor why you can't go into the recording list for 5 minutes before a recording).

Well, one logical reason to prevent deletion while recording is that deletion messes with the system's free space data structures, whereas renaming titles and adding chapters does not need to (I'd guess). Recording makes heavy demands of those free space data structures as it is constantly allocating new HDD memory as the recording progresses. It could simply be a matter of concurrency, or lack thereof, such that their allocation/deallocation subsystem cannot (or was not designed to) handle concurrent allocation/deallocation (i.e. happening at the same time). There are ways you can design such systems to be reliable under those conditions (most operating systems do this fine), but they take extra software engineering effort. I't a simpler design to add the restriction that only one "process" may interact with the allocation/deallocation subsystem at any given time, until that process completes, and when recording, that's the one process that has exclusive use of that subsystem, locking out any other potential uses, such as a deletion request.

Just a theory.

I just picked one of these up last week. The TVGOS populated within 24 hours, but the sub search menu locks up on me and I cannot use it at all unless it's a new search and then it will stay on my HDD forever and shows cannot be selected to record. I've tried the guide reset and it initially erased the previous searches. They reappeared after the guide loaded again.

Anyone have any ideas of how to fix this problem? Maybe reformat the HDD and thenreset the guide again or take it back?

I really miss the functionality of the ReplayTV and wish the Toshiba was more user friendly like TiVO or Replay. I wonder if the person who wrote the owners manual has ADD? So much skipping around.

A reformat of the HDD fixed this problem for me. Hope this helps someone else!

I never tried "sub search" myself. I've actually been a little timid about using TVGOS at all, since I hated it with the Pioneer 533 (constantly grinding away). I guess when I search for a tv show, I do it online on my PC. So I don't know if mine would lock up as well, on sub search. I have used TVGOS though to record, just highlight the show and hit the "record" button once, and a little red dot appears on the listing. Quite easy.

Overall though, I'm still very happy with the quality and functionality. And I agree that it could be more user friendly. As I said, prying open the "clamshell" lower part of the remote gets old, and there are a lot of necessary functions there (such as "delete" and "clear"). One other thing that would be nice - seeing how much time is left on the hard drive. The Pioneer always listed that on the title menu, while if it's on the Toshiba, I don't yet know how to find it (I bet they have it, somewhere). But the bottom line for me is that this is very quiet, does what I want it to do, in the quality that I want. So being easier to use would be icing on the cake, but the cake for my needs is just fine (so far, still may find a problem eventually).

Quick Menu->Disc Information

Thanks Me3, that disc information works great. And it's very thorough information, showing the time remaining for 5 different (user favorite) modes. Overall I still like this unit, still somewhat frustrated by minor user unfriendliness (the lower "clamshell" also hides the chapter markers).

The only real negative (maybe) I've had so far is that when playing back a DVD (home made by someone else), I saw some lingering "ghosting" at times. Such as when there was fast motion, or one scene changed to the next. It could be the DVD itself, but I watched it on my PC and didn't notice the ghosting effect. Maybe I'll figure out a way to get rid of this on playback (Play DNR? Interlacing/Noninterlacing?), but if it's only on this DVD then no big deal, I didn't get the machine for much playing of other people's DVDs anyway, more for recording my own. But it is bothersome to see something unexpected like that.

Also, when I was first using the DVD recorder, at times I thought I heard some playback noise "clicking", almost like the sound of a geiger counter. I eventually switched the sound output to "2 channel analog" and that may have fixed it. Or maybe it was never a problem in the first place, possibly was some cable tv input noise. But I'm a little surprised that 2 channel analog wasn't the default setting. In fact that's been a surprise on this unit for a few other things as well, the default settings aren't what I would have expected, or wanted. With the Pioneer, it seemed like the defaults were mostly what I would have chosen myself. However, as long as I can find and choose the proper settings (eventually), that's ok. Still learning this thing, but so far I'm pretty happy with what it can do.

I'm just about ready to return mine.

One major complaint is the TGOS! I don't understand why they list the channels alpha instead of numeric order, although you can change the order, it's a pain. I was doing just that tonight and realized there were a few channels missing. Scrolling through the guide there were digital channels listed (set to off and none for channel) even though I don't have a cable box attached. There was another selection for my town, but the channels weren't correct.

The functionality and it not being user friendly is another drawback. You should be able to rewind or pause at anytime without having to press a seperate button to set this feature up and should be able to do other things at the same time.

Compared to my two ReplayTV's and a HTPC the Toshiba sounds like a small jet engine when it's on.

I want my ReplayTV funtionality combined with a DVD recorder that I can edit with.

The Toshiba does have an excellent tuner.

Can't justify $400 for old, slow technology. Seems the only new feature might be the component connections.

You will not find this on any of the highly recommended DVD HDD recorders on this forum. They all use the TVGOS, which has a similar "look and feel" regardless of recorder brand. Some brands integrate the TVGOS better than others (I think the Panasonics do the best job), however they are all similar.

We have all learned either to live with the TVGOS, or to disable it and do manual programming. Here again the Panasonics shine, as it is very easy to disable the TVGOS if it is not wanted.

Hi rgazzara,

Out of curiousity, how does a Panny implement the TVGOS better? (Not a challenge, just genuine curiousity.)

I was under the impression that Gemstar develops the software that all developers using TVGOS just add to the ROM of a particular unit. Gemstar maintains the channel listings and provides those listings to participating broadcasters for insertion into their data stream. Some do it well, some do it poorly, some are just plain screw-ups and don't do it at all.

Once I press the "TV Guide" button on my Toshiba's remote, I have left 'Toshiba Land' and entered 'Gemstar Land.' How does the Panny differ?

You are welcome. Yeah the 'Chapter Divide' being hidden is poor design. Other than that I've found that the Content Menu and Quick Menu give me most of the things I use daily.

We all find our way of doing things best for ourselves. I liken it to Microsoft Windows in the sense that there are many ways to "skin a cat" in the UI. For example, if I want to copy something (in virtually any program), I can select something and then use the Edit->Copy menu, or the Toolbar icon, or right-click for a context menu, or use Crtl+C. All methods work. All methods are correct. All methods will have users agrue as to why one method is better that the other. They are not better. They are just different approaches to get the same results. Toshiba has done the same thing (to some extent) in their UI. There are a lot of ways to do the same thing using different menus.

On a given day I will typically uses the TVGOS to select things for recording. However, I never use the TVGOS to access or delete recorded content. It's not that I can't, I just find it faster to use the Content Menu. When I delete content, I use the Content Menu, highlight the program, and use the Quick Menu. (By the way, these menus go 'round robin' and you can go up to get to the bottom.)

Play around with it, or read the manual. You will find that there are many ways to "skin a cat."

By the way, in Windows, I use Ctrl+C.

For example, it appears that the Pioneers save the TVGOS EPG on the HDD instead of flash memory (as is the case with the Panasonics). The result is that Pioneer owners complain of a constant "HDD thrashing" while EPG data is being downloaded (the Panasonic is whisper quiet).

The TVGOS on the Pioneers requires a workaround (which doesn't always work) to disable it, where as disabling the TVGOS on the Panasonics is very simple and straightforward.

The Pioneers seems to lose TVGOS EPG data far more frequently than the Panasonics (not sure about the Toshibas).

This is why I think the TVGOS EPG is better integrated into the Panasonic recorders. They have had it longer than other brands, and I think that they do a better job of incorporating it.

Yes the basic software is written by TVGOS, but it is up to the individual manufacturers to incorporate it properly.

Thanks for the response. I had heard that about the Pioneers. Toshiba uses flash memory and is also quiet in that regard. Mine has been reliable (for the most part). I can't speak to the disabling the EPG issue as mine has works pretty well from day two.

I have a question that relates to the TVGOS. On my Panny it can take as much as 5 days to populate the listings completely.

Is this a function of the area that I am in or the model that I have? I see in this thread that some of members are saying that 24 hours and it's there. Never had that. Hoops and Kart I think have the E85H like mine.

Is Tosh better in this reguard? I have no other complaint or problem with the Guide on the panny, it seems to be better than the system setup with the Tosh.

Yes, I have the Panasonic E85H. But I don't use the TVGOS, I program it manually.

From reading discussions about the Pioneer 633 TVGOS, it seems to load two day's worth of programming each day (while it's rebuilding the schedule), taking up to a week to fill in the whole schedule such that there is information about the whole next upcoming week. Don't know if that holds for the Panasonic's as well.

Actually 24 hours and it begins populating. It does something like today (Day 1) and Day 2, and Day 7. Since you are populating it with a today, tomorrow and one week from today scheme, it takes several days to fully populate.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it... unless someone else has the correct information.

This is a function of the way the TVGOS EPG is downloaded. At any given download period (day), the EPG data for today, tomorrow, and 7 days from today are downloaded. That's why it can take 5 days to download an entire week. Those who say the TVGOS completely downloads in 24 hours are mistaken -- it can't download that fast. What is true, however, is that it is recommended that the recorder be left off (in standby) for 24 hours before checking the EPG. That's because the EPG will only download while the recorder is off (on standby).

This is the case with all recorders with the TVGOS EPG.

Me3, I see your point about their being many ways to use the various functions. For the chapter divide button, example. Actually on the Pioneer, there was no chapter divide button - it was all accomplished with various "generic" center buttons and menus. So maybe on the Toshiba it's essentially optional. And I suppose some of the buttons are hidden under the "clamshell" for a reason, so you don't accidently push them. Just for the record, when copying on Windows I tend to click "edit" near the top, drag the lines to be copied, and then use cntrl+V to paste. Weird, huh?

I think I may have found the first geniune "drawback" (for me) to the Toshiba. I had the unit set to record a show at 11pm, while I was watching another one being played back from the hard drive. I forgot all about the 11pm show set for recording. But as I was watching the playback of the other show, at 11pm the recorder froze the playback and asked me if it was ok to start recording the other show. Huh? If I hadn't been there and had just left the played back show running, would it have failed to record the 11pm show? What if I'd gotten a phone call during the playback, or fallen asleep, or whatever. Kind of bothersome, when you think you've scheduled a recording and it still needs your "ok" to start. Or maybe there's a workaround. This will take more experimentation.

I still like the thing so far, maybe because I expected a few imperfections, as complicated as these things are. The unit seems dead silent to me at about 5 feet or more, but maybe my hearing is going.

If you had not responded it would have done it automatically. It WOULD change the channel and RECORD the show and playback would restart on what you had been watching. I let it run it routine once for grins. I'm sure that there was some logic to taking this approach... probably to let the user know that it was doing it's job.

Thanks Steve (Me3), that's good to know. I did wonder what would happen if I wasn't there to "answer" it via the remote, but hadn't tested it out myself. So I have yet to find a real problem with this machine, I continue to be very happy with it.

I don't have any experience with othe recorders but the Comcast Moto 6412 DVR behaves the same way, so it may be an industry-wide convention to do that.

So with this unit you can record HD from your STB on the HDD for later play back, so that I don't have to buy one of their own hd pvr's from the tv company?

And if the show that is recorded on hd in hard drive is burned to dvd ram, does it remain in hd?

Stupid questions but it's not clear to me.

That's true except for the part about High Definition. The DVD Recorders that can record HD signals are not available yet. This is discussed at length in the Sticky Topic at the top of this Forum.

So the true part is that you can record the HD signal on the hdd and play it back in HD from the box, but you cannot put it on any disk. So when you ask the player to burn a dvd from HD stuff in what format does it do it? Reg. digital, 480?


Thanks