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Mitsubishi WD2000U - WOW!!! - Page 2

post #31 of 964
Looks like a great projector for a giant rear projection set-up. Match that baby with a 120" diagonal rear projection screen and you will have something to impress your friends and scare little children.

According to Projector Centrals' calculator, if you hooked that unit up with a low cost 1.5 gain 120" rear projection screen you would have 79 Foot Lamberts. Mated with a expensive 3.5 gain DNP "new wide angle screen" and it shows 184 Foot Lamberts. Even if you cut those figures in half for low power mode they are impressive.

IB
post #32 of 964
Thread Starter 
inky blacks, you're right, that would be a stunning setup One side question, what is the highest gain front PJ screen out there? Anything higher than the DaLite High Power (the Vuetec's is specd and much higher but it is not brighter than the DaLite)... The issue with the High Power is that the viewing angles are very short and unless one is close to dead center, light fall-off is radical.
post #33 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by liebkid View Post

. The issue with the High Power is that the viewing angles are very short and unless one is close to dead center, light fall-off is radical.

That's what the 'theory' says, but I just don't see it on the HighPower's that I have seen. I don't notice any significant dimming until well beyond the edge of the screen, and even then the illumination of the screen is completely uniform and good looking.
post #34 of 964
The Silverstar is the brightest as far as I know. If you have compared the Silverstar side by side with the High Power and found the HP brighter, then you up against a wall. I remember someone testing the Silverstar and claiming the gain was only 3. If you get high gain you are going to lose viewing angle.

You might consider the DNP Supernova front projection screen. It has some gain but incredible rejection of room light. The Mitsubishi combined with a 120" Supernova would be an incredible combination.

IB
post #35 of 964
IB-

Thanks for pointing that out. I mixed up the WD with the XD and could of made a really poor mistake. Back on track
post #36 of 964
Does the WD2000U only have a 2X color wheel like the Mitsubishi HD4000U? If so, that would be a deal killer for most HT buyers.

IB
post #37 of 964
turn off the white segments for HT use... and i have a feeling the lumens respond accordingly...
post #38 of 964
Thread Starter 
[quote=inky blacks]Does the WD2000U only have a 2X color wheel like the
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

Does the WD2000U only have a 2X color wheel like the Mitsubishi HD4000U? If so, that would be a deal killer for most HT buyers.

There is no word on the color wheel speed on the Mitsu product brochure and website, however, though I am not particular sensitive to the issue, I did not see it anymore on my face while watching the PJ in action than any other HT machine currently on the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

turn off the white segments for HT use... and i have a feeling the lumens respond accordingly...

Don't forget a couple things: this machine has both a 300W light source that spells a lot of light output by its own attributes and, aside from integrating a white segment, TI's BrilliantColor Technology by itself improves overall light response's luminosity based on earlier color wheel designs. The presentation I saw with this machine, specially the HD trailers after a short color correction, setting in theatre/high contrast mode and turning off the white segment, was extremely, extremely bright... this, on a projector with over 300 hours on the bulb... a time by which (to be modest in my choice of words) most bulbs have lost a lot of the its initial "spark"
post #39 of 964
How big was the screen you saw it on?
post #40 of 964
Let's keep things in perspective and not compare this to the "traditional" home theater projector that just doesn't have the lumens that some of us want. Those of us that want a higher lumen projector for larger screens or watching with the lights on are typically willing to sacrifice in other areas. So those of you that are not interested in this type of projector please stop telling us this is not suitable for Home Theater because I believe it is. If you go read the threads on the HD4000U you will find some happy owners using it for home theater. We also have the author of this thread that has witnessed the projector and was obviously impressed. Additionally there is a huge thread on tweaking the Ruby to provide for a brighter picture that some say may reduce other qualities and many people prefer the brighter picture.

The bottom line is that this may be a better alternative to the few options in this price range for bright projectors.

My only concern is over the 2x speed color wheel that I am almost sure this machine has and the RBE. If anyone in Los Angeles gets this projector or has the HD4000U and would be willing to show it to a fellow AVSer please let me know as I would really like to spend some time viewing it.

I would also love to see the shootout between this and the other similar projects mentioned especially the Canon SX60 and the Optoma EP910. The issue with the latter projectors is lack of lens shift, anyone know what the offsets are for these projectors?
post #41 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

The Silverstar is the brightest as far as I know. If you have compared the Silverstar side by side with the High Power and found the HP brighter, then you up against a wall. I remember someone testing the Silverstar and claiming the gain was only 3. If you get high gain you are going to lose viewing angle.

You might consider the DNP Supernova front projection screen. It has some gain but incredible rejection of room light. The Mitsubishi combined with a 120" Supernova would be an incredible combination.

IB

I apologize that my contribution here is somewhat off topic, but it is related to get the brightest possible (good) picture, which is what the Mits wd2000u is all about.

In all I read in various threads comparing the SilverStar and HighPower, these are my conclusions:

1) They both have about the same gain head-on (~3).

2) The SS has a much wider viewing angle.

3) The SS is thus not as good at rejecting ambient light (at least from the side).

4) The SS tends to 'hot spot' and produce 'sparklies' more than the HP; the image given by the HP is somewhat sharper.

5) The HP can be had in sizes > 120" diag.

6) To get the best performance from the HP, it should be mounted near eye level, while the SS can be ceiling mounted.

7) The SS is about 3x (or more) the price of the HP.

I thus conclude that if viewing angle is not an issue (e.g., if your viewing area is not unusally wide) and if you are able to mount the HP not too far from eye level, then the HP is the obvious choice. I would appreciate hearing if I have missed the boat in any of these conclusions. I own no screen, but am seriously investigating all possibilities.
post #42 of 964
Anyone doing a powerbuy on the WD2000U?
post #43 of 964
I'm surprised no decided to look at the pdf spec sheet on Mits' site!

DISPLAY TECH 0.65", 1-Chip DMD, 12 deg. LVDS, DarkChip 2 with DDP3020
RESOLUTION 1280 x 768 (Total 983,040 pixels), 600 Video Lines
BRIGHTNESS 3000 lumens
CONTRAST RATIO 2000 : 1 (on/off)
COLOR WHEEL 5 seg. Color Wheel (R/G/B/W/Y)
ZOOM/FOCUS Motorized Focus & Zoom Lens
PROJECTION LENS F= 2.0-2.4
THROW RATIO 1.69 - 2.26
OFF SET AXIS (V)1 : 1 - 5 up, (H) Screen Width +/-10% (with Variable H+V Lens Shift)
PICTURE SIZE 40-275 inches diagonal
SOURCE LAMP 300W (Shut Off Time 2000 Hrs) with Low Mode (240W: Shut Off Time 5000 Hrs)
PC COMPATIBILITY Resolution: 640 x 480 - 1024 x 768 + Compressed 1280 x 1024 Sync on Green available, WXGA available (1280 x 768, 1280 x 800)
VIDEO COMPATIBILITY NTSC/NTSC 4.43/PAL (including PAL-M, N) SECAM/PAL-60, Component Video; 480i/p (525i/p), 576i/p (625i/p), 720p (750p 50/60Hz), 1080i (1125i 60Hz), 1080i (1125i 50Hz) SCART (RGB + 1V sync)
INPUT TERMINALS RGB: Mini D-sub 15pin x 1, 5 BNC x 1, DVI-D (with HDCP) x 1, Audio: Stereo Mini Jack (ø 3.5mm) x 2, Video: RCA x 1 or BNC x 1, S-VIDEO x 1 or BNC (Y, C) x 1, Audio: RCA (LR) x 2
OUTPUT TERMINAL RGB: Mini D-sub 15pin x 1, Audio: Stereo mini jack (ø 3.5mm) x 1, DC OUT 5V 1.5A (Max)
COMMUNICATION TERMINAL LAN (RJ-45) x 1 (Projector control), RS-232C; D-sub 9pin x 1 (Direct command is available), Mouse; USB x 1,Wired remote in/out
SCANNING RATE [H] 15 - 100 kHz, [V] 50 - 95 Hz, [Dot Clock] max 140 MHz
AUDIO SPEAKER 3 W Mono
HEIGHT ADJUSTER Screw type front leg (0 to 7 degree variable)
HAND REMOTE UNIT 1) Projector fully control, 2) USB Mouse Cursor Control (with page up/down and home/end, 3) High brightness Laser pointer (with cancelable mode), 4) Wired remote
POWER CONSUMPTION 420W/4.2A
DIMENSION 16.93" x 6.53" x 12.99" (430 x 166 x 330 mm) (W x H x D)
WEIGHT 18.8 lbs. (8.5 kg.)
POWER REQUIREMENTS AC 100-240V, 50/60 Hz
FAN NOISE 32 dBA (Low mode: 27 dBA)
SUPPLIED ACCESSORIES AC Power Cable AV cable RGB cable USB cable RS-232C cable Remote Cable Terminal Cover Safety Manual Remote Unit (incl. Battery) User Manual CD
OPTIONAL ACCESSORIES Replacement Lamp (VLT-XD2000LP), Available optional Lenses, Wireless LAN Unit (when available), Ceiling Mount (XD2000CM), and Hard Rolling Case (XD2000-ATAC)
WARRANTY 3-years or 10,000 hrs on TI-DLP DMD Chip, 3-years on Parts and Labor, 3-years ERA ,90 days or 300-hour on lamp
OUTSTANDING FEATURE Exclusive Mitsubishi Color Enhancer support Motorized Lens shift sRGB 10 languages OSD Embedded software for remote projector management BrilliantColor technology Digital keystone-correction for Vertical and Horizontal Video Line Doubler 3D-Y/C Password Lock Menu Option



Note my emphasis. It has a 5 segment Color Wheel (R/G/B/W/Y) with a white and a yellow segment. This sounds similar to the NEC 500 something or other...

I remember hearing reports of the that one looking ok but that the colors could never be adjusted correctly. That doesn't mean this one will be the same but it probably doesn't fare well for it. It does have Brilliant Color processing though so that may help.

Also, I believe the NEC was a 4x wheel? Or was that the HT1000?
-Matt

EDIT: It was the NEC HT510 I was thinking of. It does have the same RGBWY 5-segment wheel but it only spins at 2x
NEC HT-510
post #44 of 964
As far as the available lenses... here are the options:

MODEL NO.------ TYPE -------------------- THROW ------- FOCAL -------- MOTORIZED FOCUS & ZOOM
============================================================ =================================
Standard Lens - Standard ---------------- 1.7 - 2.4 --- 24.5 - 33.1 -- Yes
OL-XD2000SZ --- Short Throw Zoom Lens --- 1.3 - 1.9 --- 19.6 - 26.5 -- Yes
OL-XD2000LZ --- Long Throw Zoom Lens ---- 2.1 - 2.9 --- 32.4 - 40.5 -- Yes
OL-XD2000TZ --- Tele Zoom Lens ---------- 2.9 - 4.7 --- 40.7 - 65.1 -- Yes
OL-XD2000FR --- Fixed Focal Length ------ 0.8 --------- 11.5 --------- Focus Only



Enjoy.
-Matt
post #45 of 964
Hey guys, this projector sounds sweet! Unfortunately, I am extremely sensitive to the RBE and can easily see it on any 1-chip projector. But here is a great test to see if you can see RBE on any projector.

Use any THX certified DVD an go into its Optimode test patterns. Sequence through them until you reach the aspect ratio tests. Now just move your eyes from side to side of the screen repeatedly. If the white circle doesn't break up and trail RGB circles, you will never see the RBE on that projector. I tried this test on a friend who had never seen the RBE before (and thought I was crazy) and even he could see it now. And it really, really works!
post #46 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpjohnst View Post

I'm surprised no decided to look at the pdf spec sheet on Mits' site!

Note my emphasis. It has a 5 segment Color Wheel (R/G/B/W/Y) with a white and a yellow segment. This sounds similar to the NEC 500 something or other...

EDIT: It was the NEC HT510 I was thinking of. It does have the same RGBWY 5-segment wheel but it only spins at 2x
NEC HT-510


I already pointed out that this has a white segment and I got the information from that very same PDF. You can pretty much count on a white segment when talking about very bright single chip DLPs. Again we all know that we will give up performance to get the brightness....The only way around this is to fork over $15K or more for a bright 3 chipper and most of us don't have that kind of money to throw at a projector.
post #47 of 964
The big outstanding question is the colorwheel speed.

This platform is really amazing at this price point - motorized everything, detachable lens, relatively small.

What they need now are optional DMD's. You just pick what you want WXGA, SXGA+, 720P, 1080P.

Ken
post #48 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

I tried this test on a friend who had never seen the RBE before (and thought I was crazy) and even he could see it now.

Most people out side this forum have no trouble nore know anything about RBE. Proof, DLP TVs sell in large qty across the US every day in stores with no complaints.
Almost everything will have some sort of shortcoming if you go looking for it. I love my Ruby but the other day I pointed out how much softer Lcos is to DLP because of slower MTF and showed the brightness compression due to the iris and miss convergence and now hes upset I showed him this. He now prefers DLP 1 chip.
post #49 of 964
Alan,

Would you buy a DLP projector with a 2X color wheel?

IB
post #50 of 964
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

How big was the screen you saw it on?

Not sure... I have a 180" diagonal and the one they were showing it on was clearly much. much larger than that. Figure well above 200" to 250"...
post #51 of 964
Thread Starter 
OK, here's my promised update. I just came back from LA visiting at a friend's house that has a DaLite High Power 156" Diagonal 16x9 screen with a Mitsubishi HD4000U (with a 2x color wheel) as I was curious to compare his machine to the WD2000U. Views on BOTH PJs' and my opinions are based on the same 1080p QuickTime trailers downloaded from the Apple's Website that I used to compare both machines. Here are my observations:

- THESE ARE NOT THE SAME MACHINES, BEING JUST THE WD2000U A HIGHER OUTPUT MACHINE WITH A LARGER BULB THAN THE HD4000U. NO. NIGHT AND DAY.
- The WD2000U is a much larger unit built in a rugged casing.
- The connections block on the back is totally different meaning, at least side motherboards inside the unit are also different.
- The size of the optics is much larger on the WD2000U than on the HD4000U and they seem of a very different quality all-together. Aside from featuring lens shifting, being larger in diameter and a bit faster (bigger aperture means more native light output thru them to start with no matter the light engine block and the power on the bulb), the most important issue is that I found the lens on the HD4000U to be of dramatically low quality. Unlike when I walked to the screen and stood a couple of inches away from it when watching the WD2000U that was DEAD ON SHARP with positively no signs of softness or color aberrations, the same thing on the HD4000U proved quite differently. There is a purple ringing and slight softness to the image that you cannot get into perfect focus no matter what. Five feet and more away from the screen, this tends to vanish of course but it is an indication that the optics quality between the two units are two different worlds. To me this matters a lot. Just as I am fairly insensitive to RBE, I cannot stand panel misconvergence issues, soft focus, poor optics or brightness uniformity issues... I will touch all of these below:
- Next, the most important issue. RBE. It was CLEARLY ON MY FACE on the HD4000U. However, I could not get it to bother me on the WD2000U when I tried to see it really hard. So, whether this means the HD4000U's color wheel rotates slower than the WH2000U I have no clue. What I do know is that these two projectors as far as RBE do NOT look the same.
- Finally, CR, Color and General Performance: First of all, it is important the everyone understands that the implementation of White Segments on Color wheels and TI's BrilliantColor are not the same for every projector's design, and that data and "HT" machines have different take-offs on both blueprints.

The BrilliantColor and mode settings on the WD4000U and WD2000U are completely different. So are the menus. Totally different all-together.

While on the HD4000U BrilliantColor can be widely turned on or off via menu controls, on the WD2000U its integrated as part of the mode's settings. The HD4000U had 117 hours on the bulb, while the WD2000U almost 400. Brightness between he two was NIGHT AND DAY. The specs say a difference of 1000 lumens, that, one can initially attribute to both a larger bulb and faster lens on the WD2000U but the real world told me another story. On a much larger screen, doubtfully with the same gain as the High Power DaLite and with more hours on the bulb, the brightness on the WD2000U was vastly, vastly superior (I compare this after quickly having calibrated both machines to a quick good color fix, no white clippings and other things that can severely impair better image quality in exchange for maximum brightness). So this is really good news.

Continuing, while low and high power light modes had a large impact on the HD4000U, it did not so much on the WD2000U, that on IS VASTLY QUIETER than its HD4000U brother with much more light output. Again, this is great news. I noticed all the fans on the HD4000U to be smaller and rotating faster at a higher pitch while on the WD2000U they were larger and rotated clearly slower taking advantage of the overall larger size of the unit itself.

Also, the effect of BrilliantColor on color saturation and mid-tone values is somewhat noticeable on the HD4000U specially on yellows, but not so on the WD2000U. I remember toggling back and forth between the bright and theater/high contrast modes, and colors stayed locked and well saturated. I have a clear opinion that while the HD4000U's implementation is tweaked to optimize data display, the WD2000U is tuned for large screens HTs/ large venues environments and so does BrilliantColor's integration, designed for optimum home theater needing high light output. This is further clear to me by evidently seeing some dithering in mid and high tones on the HD4000U and having not noticed them at all on the WD2000U.

Finally, brightness uniformity and color. Brightness uniformity was a total joke on the HD4000U with a clear hot spot on the center and dimmed areas on the corners (specially on the lower right side) while uniformity was impeccable to the eye on the WD2000U when viewing a blank white image. Maybe the HD4000U had poor alignment on the bulb or maybe it was a one-off unit with this issue, but, it was very apparent. And to conclude, Color: with all BrilliantColor enhancements off, and calibrated to the eye as best I could within the few minutes I dedicated to the test, the HD4000U was overall OK but it never gave me the same punch while it was fairly dim by the time I thought it was good for my humble movie watching taste. On the WD2000U, it was a different story. I felt the colors to be more solid, CR greatly more gracious and solid, mid-tones and shadow detail much more defined, all of it, while still having near-blinding brightness at hand to largely spare, even after I quickly calibrated it for the best color and within the theatre/low power/high contrast mode. I end with a more generic observation and that is, that the overall sharpness of the HD4000U is no match for the cut-throat crispness of the WD2000U. Maybe its "just" the lens, maybe better software, maybe a better internal scaler, maybe its the video card used on the PC's feeding the content (I have no clue what was on the PC connected to the WD2000U while I know it was a new NVidia 7900 feeding the HD4000U), but, whatever it is, DVI to DVI, fed the very same 1080p signal (internally downcoverted by the PJ to 720p) and watching exactely the exact same content bit-by-bit (The DaVinci Code, King Kong and V for Vendetta Trailers), the WD2000U is a V8 engine and the HD4000U a superchaged 4 cylinder

So that's it. I hope I didn't bore anyone with this comparative mini-review. I tried my best to be both impartial and recalling the image on the WD2000U on my mind as of 3 days ago with the ones of the HD4000U, today. I am now, double excited about the WD2000U, because when compared to the HD4000U, I can only say, we are definitely NOT talking about the same category product. Thoroughly different beasts. The WD2000U seems to be a much more solid product, coupled with features at hand I cannot live without, quality components, optics to match and enough light output to both calibrate it to death without fears of dimming results, and, VERY IMPORTANT, giving us a large grace period of available light on screen, even as the hours mount as the bulb starts aging. The WD2000U is a pro-built product and light-wise, a machine with enough horsepower to endure the test of the hours adding up as you use it. Based on current bulb designs that as we all know is fairly flawed and hit us invariable with a quick reduction of output within the first few hundred hours of usage, I feel to be a blessing to have a product that comes out of the box with light to spare, that 1000 hours or more down the road, can still be calibrated to the spark it had out of the box as far as lumens are concerned. And all of this at a price that cannot be matched by anything else on the market. I cannot think of a better "fairly-disposable" machine that I can happily live with it till the ridiculous prices of the new 1080p kids on the block become realistic.

Alan, when can I get mine?
post #52 of 964
Thanks a bunch for the leg work...I am in! Tell me where and when and I will jump on the band wagon; everthing that I have read and heard confirms that the WD2000u is a great choice at an awsome price.
post #53 of 964
Ok, I'm sold. Where can I get one?

Or maybe I should wait til I see the Cinetron 1080p LCOS projector this weekend...



regards,

Li On

PS: btw, I need the short throw lens on the Mit. Does the mentioned price includes the option?
post #54 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Most people out side this forum have no trouble nore know anything about RBE. Proof, DLP TVs sell in large qty across the US every day in stores with no complaints.
Almost everything will have some sort of shortcoming if you go looking for it. I love my Ruby but the other day I pointed out how much softer Lcos is to DLP because of slower MTF and showed the brightness compression due to the iris and miss convergence and now hes upset I showed him this. He now prefers DLP 1 chip.

This is true, but I can still see the RBE even on RP DLP sets in a fully lit room without even trying! Granted this only happens during dark scenes with bright highlights but like I said, I'm extremely sensitive, more so than anyone I know. I so wish I wasn't though. It would make my choices for a projo much more affordable!
And you're also right that that even the best (affordable) projectors have some noticeable flaws. I think 1-chippers have the greatest potential in the HT arena but their biggest limitation in their colorwheel. Not just because of the RBE but also because of dithering and difficulty sinking with 24p signals. I'm very curious to see if LEDs can be used as a light source in front projectors because they would solve all these problems.....but probably introduce a whole set of new ones!
post #55 of 964
It sounds like this pj would allow one to use the Stewart Firehawk screen (rather than a high gain screen like the HighPower), say 123" or 135" diag, and have the 'best of both worlds'; i.e., the pj is bright enough that one doesn't give up a super bright pic with a gray screen, and also the FH enhances the resolution of dark scenes (better than the HighPower would do) and also does a good job of ambient light rejection. Does this make sense? Or would want even the additonal brightness that the HP would give?
post #56 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

Does the WD2000U only have a 2X color wheel like the Mitsubishi HD4000U? If so, that would be a deal killer for most HT buyers.

IB

This looks like a potentially great projector...I contacted Mitsubishi through their website last night and they just responded...it's a 4X color wheel.

Here's their web page if someone didn't see it (it's a little cumbersome to find): http://www.mitsubishi-presentations....oj_wd2000u.asp

A powerbuy would be a great idea!

Harry
post #57 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryH View Post

This looks like a potentially great projector...I contacted Mitsubishi through their website last night and they just responded...it's a 4X color wheel.

Here's their web page if someone didn't see it (it's a little cumbersome to find): http://www.mitsubishi-presentations....oj_wd2000u.asp

A powerbuy would be a great idea!

Harry


Funny, but I wrote them several days ago and have gotten no response at all. I hope your note was correct and that it does have a 4X wheel.

IB
post #58 of 964
Does anyone have some screen suggestions to match this PJ? I currently have a Goo Systems setup that is in a 4:3 format and I would like to get a fixed screen to match the WD2000u, high power lumens to maximize day viewing events.
post #59 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryH View Post

This looks like a potentially great projector...I contacted Mitsubishi through their website last night and they just responded...it's a 4X color wheel.

Somebody on this forum just loaned me stuff some they put together that allows me to measure colorwheel speeds (or calculate them after some measurements). I don't have one of these projectors, but if I did (or if somebody near Seattle wanted to bring one over), I could measure it.

--Darin
post #60 of 964
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigworm View Post

Does anyone have some screen suggestions to match this PJ? I currently have a Goo Systems setup that is in a 4:3 format and I would like to get a fixed screen to match the WD2000u, high power lumens to maximize day viewing events.

Check out the screens forum, but the usual suspects would include:

Vutec Silverstar
Da-Lite Highpower
DNP Supernova

All of these have substantial gain. Choosing between them depends primarily on your room setup. There's no such thing as too bright when fighting ambient light.
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