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Flooring underlayment - Page 2

post #31 of 53
7/6/06 at 6:26am
Sounds like a good product! I can see why you like it!

The only concern for me would have been the OSB. FOR ME... when I was deciding between parquet and plank flooring. I had to go with something that could accomodate either. If I had gone with hardwood plank flooring you cannot(should not) use OSB as sub flooring it has to be plywood to properly nail the plank flooring down. I could have used OSB T&G on top of the delta-FL as well which would have lowered the cost even more than using T&G plywood.

But for me, it had to be plywood.
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post #32 of 53
7/6/06 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teenie View Post

But the more I think of put the delta FL down and floating the laminate on top of it..... I just cannot imagine it!


Straight from the horse's mouth: Delta-FL Install Instructions
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post #33 of 53
7/6/06 at 9:18am
From an article in Fine Homebuilding titled "Finished Basement", I installed 1" thick expanded polystyrene (EPS) rigid foam boards, a layer of 1/2" plywood secured with concrete screws and a second 1/2" plywood layer fastened with drywall screws to make a stronger floor. The foam seams are sealed with expanding foam and seam tape (like the one for house wrap) to prevent infiltration of moist air.

All of this is based on the information from the Building Science Corporation. Makes for a very comfortable and warm floor unlike bare concrete.

Jorge
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post #34 of 53
7/6/06 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Straight from the horse's mouth: Delta-FL Install Instructions

Oh I am not saying that it is not what the manufacturer says can be done.... I am just sharing my thoughts after having installed the product in the manner I chose.

I was hoping someone who had actually layed the laminate directly atop the Delta-fl as per the vendors insstructions could have shared their opinions and experience.
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post #35 of 53
7/10/06 at 2:47pm
Thread Starter 
In order to round out this thread for the archives...

I picked up my roll of Delta-Fl and sealing tape from Lowes on Friday night, and spent Saturday installing it. As I referred to in the instruction link above, laminate flooring (with it's underlayment) can be installed directly over the top of Delta-FL. Costco had a sale on laminate flooring, so I bought ~340 sq. ft. of that, and 2 of the associated installation kits, which comes with the spacers and tap-blocks, along with 150 sq. ft. of 1/8' foam underlaymnt/vapor barrier.

As it turns out, Delta-FL is not what I expeted... I thought it would be more of a stiff foam, but in reality it's a thin-wall plastic (actually HDPE). It comes in a 5' wide roll, and has ~5/16" tall 'dimples' in it that provide the actual shock absorption.

Laying it is relatively straight-forward, I'll let the previous instructions link provide the detail there. It did tend to want to buckle and ripple a bit on the floor, but I could "walk" the ripples out away from the laminate as the rows were progressing.

With the 1/8' foam on top of the Delta-FL, there's a total ~7/16" of underlayment, with the laminate flooring applied directly on top of it, floating. No plywood/OSB, screws, etc.... just snap the flooring together on top of it (altho getting the floring together was a 12-hour chore in itself).

The end result is fantastic. Just what I had hoped for - a nice surface over concrete that has the feel of a framed floor. After some extensive scientific validation (we jumped around on it a while), it should really fit the bill as a dance-surface for my wife's studio. the concrete pad was not exactly level, but the underlaymeny helps soak some of that up. No odd sounds or feels to speak of.

I'd highly recommend it for applications directly over concrete floor that don't require you to sacrifice a lot of height.

A few pics of it start on page 7 of my site

PS- teenie, you said
Quote:


"In my case the plywood is screwed down to the slab and in fact than compresses the delta-fl but not quite flat. "

I imagine if this is true, you've eliminated much of the value that Delta-FL provides.
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post #36 of 53
7/11/06 at 7:18pm
Glad to hear it worked ou the way you wanted!


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

PS- teenie, you said
"In my case the plywood is screwed down to the slab and in fact than compresses the delta-fl but not quite flat.

I imagine if this is true, you've eliminated much of the value that Delta-FL provides.


Not sure what you meant by eliminating much of the the value that delta fl
provides.... It is a humidity/mosture barrier. I installed as per the manufacturers instructions. I was merely trying to point out that the reality is that when you screw down the plywood to the concrete slab that there is some compression that takes place. Again... not quite flat. Meaning the dimples are still in place providing an air gap between the slab and the plywood but slightly compressed.

The only caution I was rasing for you was I did not see how the delta-fl would hold up with just laminate floating on top.

Again, sounds like you are happy with the way it came out which is what matters in the end.
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post #37 of 53
7/12/06 at 9:19am
Thread Starter 
While it is a vapor barrior as well, maintaining the air-gap is an important part of the entire system design, which includes impact resistance, insulation value, as well as vapor management.

From their website :

Quote:


This air-gap membrane is made up of a special high-density polyethylene resin (FDA approved), providing a dimpled surface with outstanding compressive strength, impact resistance and long-term performance.

DELTA®-FL is a uniquely dimpled, heavy-duty grey plastic membrane that keeps you and your family warm and comfortable in your basement, or any room in the house with a concrete, slab-on-grade floor. The membrane is installed with its dimples down to create a 5/16-inch thick air space above the slab, and can be covered with a plywood subfloor and topped off with carpet or flooring systems.

with the DELTA®-FL system, the space between the dimples provides a sufficient air-gap to equalize the water pressure above and below the concrete slab.

Furthermore, the installation istructions don't mention anything about screwing any subfloor down so it compresses the material "almost flat". As a matter of fact, several of the installation scenerios allow you to float the subfloor material too, and only recommend a screw in locations where there may be "bounce" because of concrete irregularity underneath.

So, unless you really didn't mean "almost flat", I suspect much of what differentiates Delta-FL from regular plastic vapor-barrior underlayment that is 2-1/2x thinner has been lost.

I'm sure you are happy with it, and that's what counts, but for others looking to use this, I'm pointing out that's not the intended installation method.
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post #38 of 53
8/2/06 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teenie View Post

Dricore.. is that the 2' x 2' stuff they carry at Home Depot.

I have seen it... I have no experience with it or even seeing it installed. One of the things I like about the delta-fl was being able to by a large roll and minimize the number of joints. Also using 4 x8 sheets of plywood or OSB.

The dricore comes with only OSB right?

Having said that... I could see how the Dri core in smaller applications might be easier to handle and put down.

The other thing is the price... Not sure how much the drice core costs per sq ft today... but when I saw it I remember it being a little bit more money than the delta-fl and plywood combined.

I thought it might help folks to perform a cost comparison between DriCore and Delta-FL / Plywood combination. The cost comparison does not factor any tape and / or glue required for the installation.

Observation: DriCore appears to be a factory-assembled sandwich of Delta-FL and plywood, but appearances can be deceiving.

Prices: DriCore is sold in 2x2 tongue and groove squares at Home Depot ($5.98 each), and Menard's ($4.98 each). Someone mentioned in this thread that Delta-FL equates to $0.51 per SF at Lowe's, so I am going with that cost.

DriCore
2x2 piece = 4SF
4SF x 8 pieces = 32SF

8 pieces x 5.98 each = $47.84 for 32 SF of material from Home Depot ($1.49/SF)
8 pieces x 4.98 each = $39.84 for 32 SF of material from Menard's ($1.24/SF)

Delta-FL & Plywood Combination
4 x 8 piece of plywood = 32 SF
Cost of 23.32 T&G plywood at Lowe's = $19.49
Delta-FL cost is $0.51 x 32 = $16.32 for 32 SF of material

Total cost of 32 SF of plywood and Delta-FL at Lowes is $35.81 ($1.11/SF)

According to my math above (which I think is correct), DriCore is a more expensive route. I don't know which is easier to install, but don't forget that time is money.

I hope this helps others out.

Mark
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post #39 of 53
8/2/06 at 4:25pm
Dricore does not provide a vapor barrier since it is broken up into squares. Delta-FL is continuous and sealed so that I think that it would be better to prevent moisture infiltration.
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post #40 of 53
8/3/06 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RShlansky View Post

Dricore does not provide a vapor barrier since it is broken up into squares. Delta-FL is continuous and sealed so that I think that it would be better to prevent moisture infiltration.

Excellent point. I was also thinking that a bunch of 2x2 T&G squares would not be as sturdy as 4x8 sheets of T&G plywood, but that is probably splitting hairs.

Mark
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post #41 of 53
8/3/06 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Excellent point. I was also thinking that a bunch of 2x2 T&G squares would not be as sturdy as 4x8 sheets of T&G plywood, but that is probably splitting hairs.

I've got Dricore down. Feels very sturdy. I think it might be more forgiving of a not-quite-perfectly-level floor because it is 2x2.

Mark-- I'm out in the Fox Valley, down the 59 corridor. Shoot me a pm if you want to see the floor.
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post #42 of 53
8/7/06 at 11:15am
Quote:


Dricore does not provide a vapor barrier

I don't think dricore ever advertised that it was VAPOR barrier, only as "water resistant." However, the tiles fit to gether VERY tight and I think the bottom barrier overlaps when installed correctly.

Quote:


DriCore is a more expensive route

True, but the top side of the dricore is treated/sealed with something as it is a bit slippery and the plain T&G won't be.

Tom
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post #43 of 53
11/6/06 at 1:57pm
Steve - do you have another link to the pics? I can't seem to get into your site. I'd like to check out the results of your install. I'm planning on putting down an engineered wood floor (probably about 1/2" thick) on top of the concrete in my basement. I don't have any moisture problems at the moment but fear of moisture has me considering the delta-fl. I'd go the same route you did - install it floating on top of the pad on top of the delta-fl with no subfloor. I don't want to use dri-core because I don't really need a sub floor.

Thanks.
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post #44 of 53
11/7/06 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
I've had a few people who could not get to my site due to their firewall not being happy with HTTP connections to a port other than 80.

If you can't configure your FW to allow that, PM me your email address and I can send the pics to you.
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post #45 of 53
5/9/07 at 6:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by parvatha View Post

Steve,

Curious how your wife's dance floor is working out after 3 years. I looked at this thread and planning to install Delta-FL with laminate flooring on my concrete basement. My goal is very much similar to yours....to provide cushion in the basement for performing dances. I would very much like to hear your feedback.

Parvatha

Wel... nothing like a delayed response, eh?

I just came back accross this thread. The floor as been down for ~ 10 months now, and in use regularly for about 8 of those. So far it's been great. It really does well as a dance area to absorb shock. The floating laminate on top has had no issues.

Two thumbs up!
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post #46 of 53
5/9/07 at 8:18am
Thanks Steve for resurrecting this thread - and thanks to those who had replied to my new thread about Delta FL.

So are you of the opinion that I could float TiG plywood on top of the Delta? Is there any concern over shifting or creaking?

I plan to put carpet over the top of the TiG; do you put the walls on top of the floor? Or should I frame the walls first?

Thanks in advance
Tim
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post #47 of 53
5/9/07 at 8:52am
Thread Starter 
I think if you take a look at those installation instructions linked earlier in the thread, it addresses how you can lay subfloor over the top if you desire.

As for the walls, they were framed first, and there's a specified clearance (5/16"??) you leave at the wall edge for expansion.

With the floating laminate flooring I bought, I went ahead and used the installation kit for it, and the instructions for it's included moisture barrer (1/8" foam) has you "roll" it up the wall, and then you "capture it" by fastening it to the wall when you put your baseboard on.

Here's a shot where you can see the Delta Fl, the additional foam underlayment, and the laminate.
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post #48 of 53
12/11/07 at 4:21pm
Hi- I read the postings of scaesare with interest regarding his wife's dance floor. My girlfriend and I are also building a dance floor- we were concerned about the "spring" in the floor, the acoustic behavior of laminate, and the durability of the laminate flooring we are using (Ikea's Tundra). Have you had any chipping of the laminate floor due to dancer's heels? If you had any updates, I'd be happy to hear how things have gone.

Thanks.
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post #49 of 53
6/12/08 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
Woefully late reply... sorry.

Nope, no chipping at all after 18+ months thus far.
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post #50 of 53
4/11/09 at 3:30pm
I recently installed a floating floor over a Delta FL membrane without plywood. And I'll try to describe my experience. Of course it works but certain rules should be followed
1. The concrete subfloor should be well prepared, this is true for all installations method but it's more important if you don't use a plywood or OSB because their rigidity dampens the concrete imperfections. So take a 3 feet level or something straight and level with cement any differences that exceed ¼ inch. In my case I only levelled the major imperfections and I regret this time economy.
2. I wanted to be sure the floating floor was to be silent so I installed a geotextile membrane (The kind of thick membrane used in landscape) between the concrete and the FL membrane with a nice success, not very costly and no click sound when walking over the floor.
3. Tape the joints to improve the air tightness.
4. If there is a slight gap in the concrete floor add a small part of Delta FL to level it (Doubling the FL membrane).
5. A common mistake is to use a plank with a broken snap on the side or even on the lengths. The floor contracts and dilate about ½ inch from winter to summer, If many planks are snapped and holds strongly together the contraction will necessarily takes place on the broken snap and the resulting gap will be displeasing.
6. The planks are sometimes made to be installed from left to right and the good side should face the wall, I started the wrong way and found it very difficult to insert the planks so read well the manufacturer instructions. You won't have to start again.
The pros:
Saves time and money. It gives a medium to good result.
The cons:
The concrete sub floor has to be levelled more.
There is more swing in the finished floor without the plywood or OSB.

Why to use this membrane? Gives a protection against little water infiltration, like a leaking water heater, it will go under the wood floor without destroying it. The membrane is resistant to pressure, in fact it's more resistant than the planks, so the planks will break before the Delta FL crush.
Between the planks and FL I used laminated foam, it's good but not resilient and easy to flatten, it doesn't come back to its position after flattening. I have grand piano, about 500 pounds, it's supported on three legs, that's 165 pounds on each legs so to limit the pressure on the planks I bought three 8x8 inch iron plate. Otherwise it was too much for the planks. If you have heavy furniture's think about putting something under it.

Sylvain
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post #51 of 53
2/15/10 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by syl.news2 View Post

I recently installed a floating floor over a Delta FL membrane without plywood. And I'll try to describe my experience. Of course it works but certain rules should be followed
1. The concrete subfloor should be well prepared, this is true for all installations method but it's more important if you don't use a plywood or OSB because their rigidity dampens the concrete imperfections. So take a 3 feet level or something straight and level with cement any differences that exceed ¼ inch. In my case I only levelled the major imperfections and I regret this time economy.
2. I wanted to be sure the floating floor was to be silent so I installed a geotextile membrane (The kind of thick membrane used in landscape) between the concrete and the FL membrane with a nice success, not very costly and no click sound when walking over the floor.
3. Tape the joints to improve the air tightness.
4. If there is a slight gap in the concrete floor add a small part of Delta FL to level it (Doubling the FL membrane).
5. A common mistake is to use a plank with a broken snap on the side or even on the lengths. The floor contracts and dilate about ½ inch from winter to summer, If many planks are snapped and holds strongly together the contraction will necessarily takes place on the broken snap and the resulting gap will be displeasing.
6. The planks are sometimes made to be installed from left to right and the good side should face the wall, I started the wrong way and found it very difficult to insert the planks so read well the manufacturer instructions. You won't have to start again.
The pros:
Saves time and money. It gives a medium to good result.
The cons:
The concrete sub floor has to be levelled more.
There is more swing in the finished floor without the plywood or OSB.

Why to use this membrane? Gives a protection against little water infiltration, like a leaking water heater, it will go under the wood floor without destroying it. The membrane is resistant to pressure, in fact it's more resistant than the planks, so the planks will break before the Delta FL crush.
Between the planks and FL I used laminated foam, it's good but not resilient and easy to flatten, it doesn't come back to its position after flattening. I have grand piano, about 500 pounds, it's supported on three legs, that's 165 pounds on each legs so to limit the pressure on the planks I bought three 8x8 inch iron plate. Otherwise it was too much for the planks. If you have heavy furniture's think about putting something under it.

Sylvain

Hopefully some of you folks are still lurking on this site. This weekend (2/14/10) I finished the install of Delta-FL (ordered from Lowes), I put a foam underlayment layer, then installed a Dupont laminate floor I got from home depot.

A few observations. I'm experiencing the same "clicking" as others have used mentioned. I wish I found this forum before I started, I would have put the weed fabric under the Delta-FL. Not sure there is anything that I can do at this point, except to pull up the laminate (it is a glueless click lock.. but still).

The other, larger, more concerning problem is the spongy nature of the floor. I was worried about a laminate floor sounding a bit fake (we've got hardwood throughout the rest of the house). as I walk on the laminate in the basement, I could almost live with the clicking, since it will be a play room. But frankly, I'm a little concerning about the how the floor flex's and compresses somewhat as you walk. I'm only 165 lbs. and I can feel it.. and my wife can see it. The concrete is pretty darn level so I dont think that was the issue. I think that the delta-fl might be better suited with OSB then laminate to give it more rigidity.

So for those of you with Delta-FL, then laminate, over concrete. Do you have a similar spongy type feel? I read the post about a piano. I dont have anything that heavy, but I worry about a couch and kids jumping. Maybe the click locks on the flooring will snap. do I bite the bullet now and pull the floorup and put down OSB? is the flexing in the floor ok?

Its to much to hope for a quick reply.. but I'm hoping to here back from you fellas.

Peace
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post #52 of 53
2/17/10 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
I've had the Delta-Fl with Laminate flooring over the top for about 3-1/2 years now.

I installed the Delta-FL directly over the concrete (which had one non-level spot that bulged near a wall I left as-is), oberserving the correct overlap between sheets, and using the tape specified for the joints. I also left the appropriate gap near the wall a specified.

Over the top of this I used the 1/8" foam that came with the laminate flooring install kit. The foam had adhesive edges to seal the jounts. I ran this foam layer up the wall 5/8" as specified for mosisture barrier.

Over the top of this I installed the laminate flooring itself, allowing it to "float" with the correct gap at the walls.

Here's a shot:



I don't get any "clicking". I do see some slight depression of the flooring if somebody jumps, etc, but that's actually what I want and expect: something to provide some "give" over the concrete so my wife's joints don't have too.

I don't know that I'd put a piano on it either, but we have had four player ping pong going without a problem, and I have a weight bench in there with feet that aren't too big along with a pretty heavy tradmill we run hard on, and it's not caused any problems for the floor.

more pics http://www.caesare.com/basement/

-sc
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post #53 of 53
2/6/13 at 10:24am
I hope people are still using this forum/thread. There has been some very useful information on here.

I am currently trying to decide on DRicore vs DELTA-FL with OSB T&G overtop then flooring vs DELTA-FL and just using laminatewith foam pad overtop. to use in my basement over a concrete pad. (i dont know how it was poured)... its a brand new build 3 years old... and there's a dimpled DELTA waterproofing around the outside foundation.

My question to everyone who has had some issue with DELTA-FL flexing and clicking... how thick is the laminate that you used? I was considering using a 12mm-14mm thick laminate, and some people i have talked with are convinced that the extra weight and thickness will add more rigidity to the over floor. I need more of a confirmation than some peoples opinions... i need first hand accounts please.

Another comment on DRicore which i think a lot of people are missing, is that it is a system. Even tho a 2x2 may not seem strong on its own, it is not until it's locked together when it gets its strength.

Sidenote, i am using metal framing... and will add the DELTA after i have framed and drywalled. I hope this is ok.

thanks for the help, much appreciated
Edited by IDguy - 2/6/13 at 10:56am
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