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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 480

post #14371 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I do not know the versions of what was involved. All I know is we ran it twice with the same poor results. I also looked at the measurements reported by the software and they were wrong. I do not see how that poor of measurement could ever result in good results.

The versions may be critical. As I said, until I updated (and swapped D2s, another variable), the results were awful and unusable. Now, they are fine.
post #14372 of 42679
I know this is not the right place to post this; but, I know people here have broad knowledge. I am thinking about adding some room acoustics to my listening room (28x18x8). I was wondering how much it would cost if I was to get an acoustian come in. I'm just looking for a general idea. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
post #14373 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja12 View Post

I know this is not the right place to post this; but, I know people here have broad knowledge. I am thinking about adding some room acoustics to my listening room (28x18x8). I was wondering how much it would cost if I was to get an acoustian come in. I'm just looking for a general idea. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I don't have a good answer for you, but I believe there is another forum here dedicated to room audio treatments. They would probably have some cost estimates and even contractor recommendations for you over there. So you should probably try over there for info as well.
--Bob
post #14374 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I don't have a good answer for you, but I believe there is another forum here dedicated to room audio treatments. They would probably have some cost estimates and even contractor recommendations for you over there. So you should probably try over there for info as well.
--Bob

Yes, I will do that. That's probably better because I definitely don't want to hijack this thread. Anyway, thanks for responding.
post #14375 of 42679
Bob,
An update - I was on the phone today with Anthem several times. They had me send them the actual files made of by the ARC which I tried to upload to the D@. They can't understand why my sub levels are so high and why the sweep signal aren't being controled by the Sub's amp. i didn't a few more sweeps today and all were sent to ANthem via email - still no answer. The calibrated ARC findings are not being uploaded to the D2. They also had be re-install 1.33 for the D2, but that did nothing (it was already working fine) The upload for the ARC stops dureing the final speaker placement findings. They said the Sub level is too high but still don't understand why either.
I'm just shaking my head over this since i don't believe such a picky program should not be on the market.
I've been waiting for a caontact but at this hour I don't think anything will come today. I was expecting a call after I first sent the files, but to my surprise I instead found an email answer which pissed me off since is said nothing and I thought I was expaecting a phone call - I have better things to do than wait all day on this and have to lug my desk top up and down stairs.
Not a happy camper here.
- Scott
post #14376 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

Bob,
An update - I was on the phone today with Anthem several times. They had me send them the actual files made of by the ARC which I tried to upload to the D@. They can't understand why my sub levels are so high and why the sweep signal aren't being controled by the Sub's amp. i didn't a few more sweeps today and all were sent to ANthem via email - still no answer. The calibrated ARC findings are not being uploaded to the D2. They also had be re-install 1.33 for the D2, but that did nothing (it was already working fine) The upload for the ARC stops dureing the final speaker placement findings. They said the Sub level is too high but still don't understand why either.
I'm just shaking my head over this since i don't believe such a picky program should not be on the market.
I've been waiting for a caontact but at this hour I don't think anything will come today. I was expecting a call after I first sent the files, but to my surprise I instead found an email answer which pissed me off since is said nothing and I thought I was expaecting a phone call - I have better things to do than wait all day on this and have to lug my desk top up and down stairs.
Not a happy camper here.
- Scott

Scott, I don't blame you for being unhappy. I suspect it is going to turn out to be something simple, but that doesn't help you until it's found.

The Anthem people really will sort this out for you. But I'm puzzled too. It's as if your ARC mic isn't properly measuring the subwoofer. But that should jump right out at them when they analyze the file you sent them.
--Bob
post #14377 of 42679
My replacement sub amp arrived today and I just completed a new ARC pass with D2 V1.33 and ARC V1.2.2.

The new sub amp seems to be giving better sub measurements than the old amp so I suspect the old amp had some developing problems before it failed. In any event, I just Uploaded the results and so far so good.

By the way, I took the gamble and did the ARC Upload with the sub powered on. ARC V1.2.2 properly "Muted" the D2 and the Upload completed without error and without any noises, loud or otherwise, from sub or other speakers.

It looks like Anthem may have fixed the "Possible Loud Pops on Upload" issue.

Since we've been talking crossovers lately: This ARC pass set the subwoofer at 120, the LF and RF at 80, the surrounds at 90 and the Center at 115 Hz.

In other good news, the ARC V1.2.2 Upload appears to have properly uploaded and confirmed all data even though run on my MacBook / BootCamp / Windows XP / Keyspan USB->Serial adapter setup. It looks like ARC V1.2.2 has fixed its serial connection reliability issues in my setup.
--Bob
post #14378 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Scott, I don't blame you for being unhappy. I suspect it is going to turn out to be something simple, but that doesn't help you until it's found.

The Anthem people really will sort this out for you. But I'm puzzled too. It's as if your ARC mic isn't properly measuring the subwoofer. But that should jump right out at them when they analyze the file you sent them.
--Bob

I think there are still a few flakes in ARC. The first series of measurements/calculations/uploads I did were similar to this. The measurements were OK and much the same as I got with later runs but the target curves and calculated results always set the sub levels 8-10dB high! Multiple runs and fiddling with the targets could not fix this. Never happened with the second D2/updated firmware+software.
post #14379 of 42679
Not to minimize the frustration of those who are still having problems with it, but *DANG!* this ARC stuff sounds good when everything's working right!

Time to dust off a few of these for me!

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post #14380 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Not to minimize the frustration of those who are still having problems with it, but *DANG!* this ARC stuff sounds good when everything's working right!

Time to dust off a few of these for me!

->->->--<-<-<-
->->----<-<-
->-><-<-
->--<-
----

Wow! Synchronized cheerleader smilies! Tell us how you REALLY feel Bob! The good news is that it appears that ARC works well for most people the first time. My ARC has finally shipped from my dealer, so I should find out any day now how it sounds, and I am almost as excited as you!
post #14381 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I think I've managed to confuse you.

First are you in the US or in Europe? There is no reason at all to use a /50 signal in US markets. Those are for European TVs.

Second, you should *NOT* be using interlaced signals for film-based Blu-Ray discs if your HTPC supports 1080p/24. And for video-based Blu-Ray discs you should be using 1080i/60 (in US markets).

............................................................ ..........
............................................................ ..........
Thus you also need to revisit the settings in your HTPC for its output to the D2.
--Bob

Bob,

I think that thanks to your help I am getting somewhere.
I would like to describe my present situation and have your corrections if needed.

- HTPC Resolution: I decided to set my HTPC to an output signal of 1920x1080p/24. It is cumbersome to set other resolutions specifically for videos and such. Most of the use I make of it is for Film based media set at 24fps, so I think that'll do it.
- D2 Resolution: I set it for 1920x1080p/24 too for the HTPC source.
- Calibration course of action: I reset EVERYTHING to factory default. Than i first set the calibration of my Sharp projector based of the D2's test pattern output. Than when things looked good, I set the calibration of the nVidia card on my HTPC using "Digital Video Essentials - BluRay".
- Calibration, results: Right now brightness is good, contrast is good, sharpness set at 0, blue color test OK, red color test OK, green color test NOT OK.

Conclusion: The picture looks good. Blacks are super deep. Brightness lacks a bit, but then again, maybe its my bad habits. Color looks good, to me, but i couldn't get a good reading for green through the green filter provided with DVE.

Please, you are invited to make comments on all of the above. And especially, do you think there is a way to improve the green setting?
Gamma didn't help.

Thank you

P.S: Reading your other comments on ARC. Mine is monumentally good!
post #14382 of 42679
The strange thing with the level I've been taking is the high response of the sub. The error message is stating I need to set the sub at -17 or even - 21 The Anthem guys don't understand why the sub is coming off so high. Another thing that is weird is that the test sweeps over ride the sub's internal amp so no matter how low the sub's amp is set (even at the lowest point) the sweeps are not effected by it. That's really got Anthem puzzled. I suggest that by setting the amp's cross over it might be over riding the sub's volume control causing the D2 to take over but when I the volume control still works during playback of a DVD. Then I tried to use a lower crossover on the sub to limit the level in terms of frequiences - that sort of worked but I had to lower it with a cut off of 60hrz and even then the new response in the error message was lower the sub -17 We abandoned that theory since it was limiting the sub's output too much.
I have a feeling it's the sub, it's size and natural output. Anthem admitted they never faced that kind of sub before and are considering that might me the problem. Which course means they didn't take a wider scope in the creation of the ARC to contend with this kind of problem. The D2 also might need an alteration since internally it can only handle a sub setting of -12 and, in my case, can not deliver what the error message is requesting to compensate for the problem.
- Scott
post #14383 of 42679
Hello,

My configuration causes the Left and Right channel to go through 2 levels of pre-amplification. First the D2 and then an Electrocompaniet EC4.8 preamp.
When I leveled all the speakers output with an SPL meter my Left and Right channels (and the dub too) had much more db's added through the D2 settings.
Nevertheless when I run the ARC software and hear the test tones it is evident it bypasses the levels set for the speakers. The Left and Right channels and the sub are much quieter than the rest.
Is it normal or is it a bug?

Thanks
post #14384 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

The strange thing with the level I've been taking is the high response of the sub. The error message is stating I need to set the sub at -17 or even - 21 The Anthem guys don't understand why the sub is coming off so high. Another thing that is weird is that the test sweeps over ride the sub's internal amp so no matter how low the sub's amp is set (even at the lowest point) the sweeps are not effected by it. That's really got Anthem puzzled. I suggest that by setting the amp's cross over it might be over riding the sub's volume control causing the D2 to take over but when I the volume control still works during playback of a DVD. Then I tried to use a lower crossover on the sub to limit the level in terms of frequiences - that sort of worked but I had to lower it with a cut off of 60hrz and even then the new response in the error message was lower the sub -17 We abandoned that theory since it was limiting the sub's output too much.
I have a feeling it's the sub, it's size and natural output. Anthem admitted they never faced that kind of sub before and are considering that might me the problem. Which course means they didn't take a wider scope in the creation of the ARC to contend with this kind of problem. The D2 also might need an alteration since internally it can only handle a sub setting of -12 and, in my case, can not deliver what the error message is requesting to compensate for the problem.
- Scott

I am also puzzled by this situation, how can the sub output not be affected when you lower the sub's own level control? Do you mean that even when you turn all the way down the sub's own volume control,there is still sound coming out of it? The D2 cannot overide the output of the sub as it puts out a fixed level signal(after test tone level adjustment if any). Is it possible that the subs attenuator is not working? +/-12dB adjustment is quite adequate if the volume control of the sub is working. The final adjustment IS in the sub and not via D2.

Is it possible that the Sub's volume control is bypassed? What is the brand and model of your sub?

I also would turn up all the way its crossover to measure the subs full bandwidth and not limit it to 60 hertz.
post #14385 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrips View Post

Hello,

My configuration causes the Left and Right channel to go through 2 levels of pre-amplification. First the D2 and then an Electrocompaniet EC4.8 preamp.
When I leveled all the speakers output with an SPL meter my Left and Right channels (and the dub too) had much more db's added through the D2 settings.
Nevertheless when I run the ARC software and hear the test tones it is evident it bypasses the levels set for the speakers. The Left and Right channels and the sub are much quieter than the rest.
Is it normal or is it a bug?

Thanks


One way of testing is to remove the other preamp from the chain and run ARC. If its sounds good with the final ARC settings then the other preamp might be messing up your levels.
post #14386 of 42679
Bob

Quick question with respect to setting up the sub to 75db by using the output level on the sub before going to the ARC, what do you do with 2 subs in the system, kill the power on one and adjust to 75db and then repeat for the 2nd sub?
post #14387 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitl View Post

Bob

Quick question with respect to setting up the sub to 75db by using the output level on the sub before going to the ARC, what do you do with 2 subs in the system, kill the power on one and adjust to 75db and then repeat for the 2nd sub?

The combined subs should be 75db.
post #14388 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrips View Post

Please, you are invited to make comments on all of the above. And especially, do you think there is a way to improve the green setting?
Gamma didn't help.

If the "green" error is large (around 15%), and if you are using YCbCr for input or output, then the most likely problem is that you have not set the YCbCr "Color Space" correctly.

I'll try to keep this simple: Color Space refers to the math used to convert the YCbCr data format used to store the movie on the discs to the RGB data format the display needs to light up the pixels. One of the more subtle differences in HD video is that different math is used to do this conversion for SD and HD video -- due to different "color primaries" specified for the HD standard.

Now the way things are SUPPOSED to work is that HD color space is used whenever the video sent between two devices is transmitted at 720p or higher, and SD color space is used for lower resolutions. But some devices get this wrong and the Anthem offers a way to force either the input side or the output side to use a specific color space despite the resolution.

If you have this problem, greens will be dull or hot by 15% depending on which way you've got it wrong.

You need to figure out whether the problem is on the input or output side. Use the Anthem's internal test charts to check the output side first. The Setup / Video Output / Color Space setting adjusts the output side. Change it from Auto to HDTV or SDTV as necessary to force the correct color space. Since you are sending 1080p/24 to your display, the Auto setting and the HDTV setting should produce the same results.

When you have the output side correct, then adjust the input side of the Anthem (Video Source Adjust / Picture / Input Color Space for each input that is giving you problems). Since you are sending 1080p/24 to the Anthem, the Auto YCbCr setting and the YCbCr HDTV setting should produce the same results. NOTE: The RGB selection found in that same menu is a separate setting that only applies when RGB data format is being sent to the Anthem. It is not really a Color Space choice (RGB doesn't have "color space"). RGB comes in two flavors of data format and this selection sets the Anthem's input to expect one or the other.

You may also discover that HD vs. SD Color Space issues are most easily corrected by making a setting change in your source or display. Again, since you are sending 1080p for input and output, the HD YCbCr Color Space is the one that the source, the Anthem, and the display really should all be using. But some devices have bugs which won't let you turn that on properly.

-------------------------------------

If those don't fix it for you, and particularly if you still see the problem on the output side (using the Anthem's internal test patterns), and if the problem is relatively minor (i.e. greens off, but only a little), then the odds are your display has a "color decoder" problem. A "color decoder" error simply means that the Color and Tint settings which are correct for Blue are not also correct for both Red and Green.

Some display manufacturers design in deliberate color decoder errors to give their displays a unique "look" in competition to other displays. Typically there are no user controls to correct a color decoder error in the display, but with some displays, choosing a different "picture mode" will also select different color decoding in the background. There may also be Service Menu settings in the display that an ISF technician could access which will adjust the display's color decoder. Check the appropriate forum thread here for your display to see if any such settings are known.

Minor errors in green due to color decoder problems can probably be safely ignored. Fiddling with the Custom Gamma Correction curves in the Anthem (the separate curves for the 3 primary colors -- available via the Live Video Settings Editor application) may cover this up a bit, but will probably do more damage to the image than if you just ignored the color decoder issue.

When faced with minor color decoder issues, generally I like to set the Color and Tint controls for the best "compromise" result for all 3 of Blue, Green, and Red, rather than targeting perfection in any one of those.

----------------------------------------------

Back to "color space": Another possible fix for "color space" problems is to force RGB data format either for input or output. It's OK to use RGB on one side and YCbCr on the other -- the Anthem does the conversion. You should use Studio RGB or this unless you find it impossible to calibrate black levels properly from your nVidia card with Studio RGB, in which case you will be forced to use Extended RGB.

Sending RGB data format gets around the whole Color Space issue. However if your display has a color decoder problem, that will likely remain even if you send it RGB.

----------------------------------------------

One other CAUTION: There is a bug in the current Anthem software that setting Color or Tint on the input side (Video Source Adjust / Picture for the current input) will INCORRECTLY also alter the output of the Anthem's internally generated test patterns.

That means that when evaluating the Anthem's internal test patterns and adjusting your display's controls to best reproduce them, you need to temporarily return the Video Source Adjust / Picture / Color and Tint controls to their factory default values (50) for the Anthem input that is currently selected.
--Bob
post #14389 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

The strange thing with the level I've been taking is the high response of the sub. The error message is stating I need to set the sub at -17 or even - 21 The Anthem guys don't understand why the sub is coming off so high. Another thing that is weird is that the test sweeps over ride the sub's internal amp so no matter how low the sub's amp is set (even at the lowest point) the sweeps are not effected by it. That's really got Anthem puzzled. I suggest that by setting the amp's cross over it might be over riding the sub's volume control causing the D2 to take over but when I the volume control still works during playback of a DVD. Then I tried to use a lower crossover on the sub to limit the level in terms of frequiences - that sort of worked but I had to lower it with a cut off of 60hrz and even then the new response in the error message was lower the sub -17 We abandoned that theory since it was limiting the sub's output too much.
I have a feeling it's the sub, it's size and natural output. Anthem admitted they never faced that kind of sub before and are considering that might me the problem. Which course means they didn't take a wider scope in the creation of the ARC to contend with this kind of problem. The D2 also might need an alteration since internally it can only handle a sub setting of -12 and, in my case, can not deliver what the error message is requesting to compensate for the problem.
- Scott

Scott, I jut had a silly thought. Are you sure the input you are using on your subwoofer for connection to the Anthem is actually responding to its internal volume control?

Some subwoofers have two distinct inputs -- one of which responds to the volume control, and one which bypasses its volume control.
--Bob
post #14390 of 42679
abc999,
Yep, we did all sorts of testing. At one point I changed the sub from by pass (allowing the D2's cut offs to work) to various cut off's like 60hz, 40hz and so on and the final readings were only a few digits off from the on previous. I also put on a DVD and tested the subs volume control and found it worked find. "Something" from the D2 is over shooting the subs internal volume setting during sweeps.
On the brights side, I spoke to Anthem this morning and they said they were writing a "fix" for me - basically a new version of the ARC programe for my sub. It seems the sub has an extremelly narrow frequency range which drops very quickly and puts out a lot of sub-sonic material. It's that very low end that is causing the sub to be registered so high causing the reading to go into error. Which is why the error screen which appears stating the results could not be loading unless the sub was lowered -21 or whatever. The problem is that the gain level on the D2 can only be lowered to -12
In theory Anthem needs to be able to programe the D2 sub gain level to go further at lease another 15 to cover and deal with the exceedingly strong sub-sonic material throwing off the mic.
I know that since I have been on the phone with Anthem about this problem for the past 3 days they have been thrown off and asking me how close the sub is to the mic, wherre is it placed in the room, and if i moved it. What they never understood what the power the sub is able to produce. Seems they haven't come across it before. I told them from the beginning that it goes extremely low beyond hearing. My example was that I also have a butt-kicker and there have been times where i thought I had turned it on - but didn't.
They hope to send me the new ARC programe sometime today.
- Scott
post #14391 of 42679
Bob,
No, it not that. As stated, when playing material (like DVDs) the volume control is working. Although, I am using balanced inputs which will raise it a few points - but we've taken that into consideration.
- Scott
post #14392 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtrips View Post

Hello,

My configuration causes the Left and Right channel to go through 2 levels of pre-amplification. First the D2 and then an Electrocompaniet EC4.8 preamp.
When I leveled all the speakers output with an SPL meter my Left and Right channels (and the dub too) had much more db's added through the D2 settings.
Nevertheless when I run the ARC software and hear the test tones it is evident it bypasses the levels set for the speakers. The Left and Right channels and the sub are much quieter than the rest.
Is it normal or is it a bug?

Thanks

ARC uses the Setup / Speaker Calibration / Noise Level setting to set the volume of its test sweep tones. Before running ARC, set the volume trim for the left front speaker to 0 and then adjust the Noise Level setting to produce around 75dB from the left front speaker. Then set the volume trim for the subwoofer to 0 and adjust the internal volume control in the subwoofer so that it to is producing around 75dB when fed the same Noise Level.

That will get things set up for ARC's test sweep tones.

But other than the Noise Level setting, ARC ignores AND REPLACES the Setup / Speaker Calibration settings.

That is, ARC measures and determines the right levels for each speaker and uploads those along with uploading adjusted cross over values and the room correction parameters.

And in particular, during its test sweep tones, ARC zeroes out the volume trim settings in Setup / Speaker Calibration.

So long as ARC is able to measure all the speakers without complaint, and as long as the Speaker Calibration values it Calculates and Uploads for you make sense, then you are fine. ARC does not need all the speakers to be trimmed to the same volume DURING its test sweep tones.

After doing an upload of ARC results you should not alter the Setup / Speaker Calibration settings as that will invalidate what ARC loaded for you.

(Do a Save User and/or Installer Settings after doing an ARC Upload to capture the settings ARC Uploaded into those memories as well so that you don't accidentally alter things by later Loading Saved User and/or Installer Settings.)
--Bob
post #14393 of 42679
Scott, many of us here have "capable" subs but there appears to be something strange happening with yours if the sub volume control isn't able to knock down the level to the point the Anthem can correctly adjust.

What sub is it?
post #14394 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

They hope to send me the new ARC programe sometime today.

I hope that does the trick for you!

I'm quite certain that Anthem tested ARC with subs that reproduce well down into the subsonic range. I wonder what it is that is so unusual about your sub?

I wonder, for example, if its volume control doesn't reduce its subsonic output -- i.e., only reduces the higher frequencies? That would be an odd design, but might explain why the sub volume you can "hear" is getting reduced but ARC is still picking up such strong subsonic readings.
--Bob
post #14395 of 42679
Bogg,
My sub is the Axiom Ep600
here is a link ...

http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html

- Scott
post #14396 of 42679
Okay that's fine, but which sub output do you adjust to get the 75db, as they can't be done together. They are diagonal to each other in opposite corners of the room. Do you adjust to say 60 db then the other to get the 75db.
post #14397 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolstoi View Post

The combined subs should be 75db.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitl View Post

Bob

Quick question with respect to setting up the sub to 75db by using the output level on the sub before going to the ARC, what do you do with 2 subs in the system, kill the power on one and adjust to 75db and then repeat for the 2nd sub?

Just to add to Tolstoi response, kill the power on Sub 1 and adjust the level on Sub 2 to 72 db. Then turn Sub 1 on (Sub 2 on also) and adjust the sub 1 level to get 75 db total.
post #14398 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitl View Post

Okay that's fine, but which sub output do you adjust to get the 75db, as they can't be done together. They are diagonal to each other in opposite corners of the room. Do you adjust to say 60 db then the other to get the 75db.

If they are the same model of subwoofer, just try to keep their volume settings about equal so that neither of them is carrying the bulk of the load. If there's some variation between them it won't matter. Subwoofers work by "pressurizing" the entire room -- their audio is not directional -- so you won't notice if there's some volume variation between the 2 of them. But you really should adjust both of them equally up or down as you are approaching the 75dB reading so that both amps are doing the same amount of work.

And again, you don't have to be super precise about this 75dB stuff. ARC will properly adjust the trim volume in the D2 for you as part of its setup.

[In reality, each of the subs will likely couple with the room differently, so that the effective volume from each of them will vary even though their volume controls are set the same. But ARC sees the blend of both their outputs and adjusts accordingly. Now if you spot any serious issues in the ARC measurements, you can use the fact that you have two subwoofers as another way to address the problem -- biasing the volume of one against the other, or repositioning just one of them to see what happens.]
--Bob
post #14399 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

Bogg,
My sub is the Axiom Ep600
here is a link ...

http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html

- Scott

That sub has an internal digital signal processor. Is that interfering with the ARC?
post #14400 of 42679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

Bogg,
My sub is the Axiom Ep600
here is a link ...

http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html

- Scott

There isn't anything obvious in the user manual that would address this issue.

I wonder, however, whether the DSP in this subwoofer might be doing something unusual with the subsonic frequencies that effectively bypasses the volume knob setting.
--Bob
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