Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 496

Nice looking cabinet. I like the finish. Years ago my old roomate and I made the one I'm using now but it doesn't look nearly that good.

Bob,
1. ps3 sound is setup properly
2. buzzing is now coming out from the left speakers, front, side and rear. Fronts are using a separate amp from the side and rear.
3.wiggled hdmi cables and buzzing did not stop. I even get it when switching to my SD DVD player which uses component and optical for sound. Pulling optical out made no diff.
4. muting=max made no diff.

looking more and more like a preamp problem.

John

Get out your trusty Radio Shack SPL meter. Go into Setup / Level Calibration. Set the first line to Manual and scroll down to the next line, "Noise Level". You will now be hearing noise from the LF speaker. Set the Noise Level to 0dB. Measure that.

The SPL reading you have just measured corresponds to what a you would typically get with a main volume setting of -10dB during normal listening. A main volume setting of 0dB will, of course, be 10dB higher.

If you don't like the volume level you are getting, then raise the Noise Level until you get the volume you want. Now scroll down and adjust the volume trim for each speaker (including the subwoofer) to produce that same SPL reading at that Noise Level. Typically the volume trims will be + or - a few dB from 0dB either side of the Noise Level you just set. The trim setting for the LF speaker will be 0.0dB of course since you just used it to set the Noise Level.

If you discover that you can't get the volume you want out of your speakers without cranking up the Noise Level unreasonably high then you need more powerful power amps for your new, less efficient speakers. E.g., perhaps you need amps designed to operate into a 4 Ohm load instead of into an 8 Ohm load.
--Bob

Yes, I think you need to give Anthem tech support a call at this point. It sounds to me like you have a hardware failure that is progressing.

It is barely possible that re-loading the V1.33 software is what you need to do, but talk to Anthem first in case they need to get some more info about your current setup.

The normal next step in diagnosing this would be to disconnect everything from the Anthem and reconnect only the bare minimum stuff to reproduce the problem, but let them walk you through that.
--Bob

Bob,
I have sent and email with all the details to Nick and suggested that I could bring it in to check. Thanks for your help.
John

Just ordered my ARC today. I had been holding off until the first bugs had been worked out. Plus, I thought that since I had a purpose-built room designed that it might not need the eq, but since some of the speaker positions are fixed I think a little eq will be a good thing. Time will tell.

Not to worry. We've fired up a whole new production line of these... ...just for new ARC users!
--Bob

Well OK, so I just did a re-Calculation and re-Upload on my latest set of ARC Measurements using a Max EQ Frequency Target of 12KHz. These are the same ARC V1.2.2 Measurements, with the default 5KHz Target, that I've been using since my replacement subwoofer amp was installed.

And the early news is that I am *NOT* hearing the problems that I heard the last time I tried this back in the ARC V1.1 days! Back then, I heard a distinct harshness which was obviously wrong. That's when I asked Nick for advice and got the word that setting ARC to work above 5KHz was not a good idea.

So what I don't know is whether there's been a change between ARC V1.1 and ARC V1.2.2 that reduces the problem in my setup, or whether the ARC 1.1 Upload got corrupted back then, or what!

Now, it will take more time for me to decide whether this new setup is better than the 5KHz setup I have been using, or to find specific problems in it. But it is *NOT* obviously wrong.

The advice from Nick still makes a lot of sense to me. There is good logic on limiting ARC to 5KHz and below. So if there IS value in raising the Target above 5KHz, it may be limited to specific setups. I.e., I may just have lucked out. Or it may be that I'm just not hearing the problems yet.

Anyway: This one needs to go back on the "needs more investigation" pile!
--Bob

Those are very interesting frequency responses (before correction), especially the subwoofer and fronts. I am not sure whether I am seeing a response which is very flat (within the 60 to 75dB for the fronts) or a room which is very dead. The surrounds seem much more typical.

Anyway, everone sees this drop off at 5KHz since it falls back to the uncorrected frequency response above 5KHz so whatever dips and peaks your speakers / room have above 5KHz will not be corrected. This is perfectly normal and expected if you do not increase the 5KHz setting.

Just one more thought. Did you normalize all your speakers to a 75dB level at the main location before taking the ARC readings? It almost seems that your fronts and center are at a higher level (more energized) pre correction than the surrounds.

Bob,
Talked to Piero today after doing a fresh 1.33 install with no change. The initial thinking was that it is a software issue affecting the hdmi circuits. Was told Nick was waiting on some info from the design engineers which may have something to do with my problem. They may suggest an install of an earlier firmware. Will report back when I get an answer.
John

Thanks for the comments. Yes the speakers were normalized. I understand why the response above 5Khz isn't corrected but the 10db drop after the correction on my left front is what got me to thinking. I wonder what ARC would do if it tried to use 65db instead of 70 db for its reference line.

My room is heavily treated so I attribute a lot of this to the room. In fact the front of the room is treated heavier then the rear and side dipole surrounds. Another factor on the front response may be the powered woofer on my mains. (Rocket RS1000s) At some point I may turn the gain down a bit on the powered woofers and see what it does for the front response. I sent the files to Nick so I'll be curious as to what he says.

By the way, my experience with ARC is that THX post processing is far less valuable after setting up ARC. Listen to some decent source content with THX turned off and ARC turned on and see if you don't agree.
--Bob
Thanks Bob,

I do notice for most, I prefer to have THX off. I have quite a few Hi-Def DVDA, SACD and many of the BluRay best rated audio movies. I love the sound!
Before ARC I had so many audio variables that I had a hard time deciding which one was correct. Now I only have the choice of THX Cinema or THX Off. My on screen display says 6 CHANNEL INPUT THX. I do not select THX when I am playing a disc. Do you have any idea how it is getting the THX setting? Perhaps it's a flag or something. I know that I had all the options prior to ARC but I must have had the setup wrong and now ARC has corrected it.
Also, I had room resonance filter on when I did the ARC measurements. The manual states that ARC bypasses it.Should I now go into the menu and turn it off. The menu shows it on but maybe it does not make any difference.
Again, thanks for all of your help.
I love ARC. The sound is so deep and full.
John

Yeah, it works well with this system, although i am shocked that arc didnt set the crossovers at 80hz but lower on the speakers and at 120 on the sub. I think I am going to run it again soon.

cat, I made it out of pine from lowes, the cabinet quality kind. Took 1o cuts with my battery powered saw, some screws and glue, and stain. About two days of work.

Thanks!

I sent the following to Nick at Anthem today:

I am resurrecting an e-mail chain that was from August 2006. I recently upgraded my D1 to a D1-HD and was hopeful that Sonic Frontiers would have corrected the S/R Reverse issue in the latest round of programming for the HD upgrade.

Nope – the issue has not been addressed.

In my general settings I have the S/R Reversed and the copy to surrounds off. I have switched the outputs to the amplifier as instructed and double checked this.

My setting for the 6-CH input for modes is “None”. (I checked and THX is off).

When I switch to the 6-CH mode the sound comes from the surround speakers, not the rears as it should. The display shows ANALOG-DSP and 5.1, but I can also tell the sound is processed with more than just the crossovers. I can enter the MODE, 7, 0 command at that time and it has no impact and no display change; however, if I enter the MODE, 7, 1 command (this switches the display to “THX Cinema” but what I am hearing does not change) followed by the MODE, 7, 0 command the output then changes from the surrounds to the rears and the “processing” disappears and the display changes back to “5.1”.

In addition, at that point if I switch to a different input (say CD) and then back to the 6-CH input the sound output is back to the surrounds instead of the rears and I have to go through the macro commands again to get the correct output back.

I am disappointed that this issue, which was known nearly two years ago, has not been addressed.

One other thing that would be nice to have is an ability to change on the fly or have a macro command to turn on/off the “copy surround to rears” function. Just a suggestion - my next step will be picking up the ARC upgrade.

Thank you,

Mike

It will be interesting to see the reply. Back in 2006 they acknowledged the problem after they tested it in-house and I was told it was sent to their programmers to address. Looks like the ball was dropped.

Response from Anthem - not what I wanted to hear - dissapointing to me, but understandable:

Hi Mike,

The Reverse and the Copy surround-rear functions have been slated for removal. They appeared in the AVM 20 v2.1 and have little relevance today.

The Copy function was added before Dolby Pro Logic IIx existed and the only role it served was trying Pro Logic II, a 5.1-channel mode into one that used all outputs. Two point sources for one signal is not a good idea because it results in combing but some people wanted it and we added it. The reason that it's taking this long to delete it is quite frankly it's low on the priority list. Video processing, HDMI, and room correction have dominated the mean time. Indeed when PLIIx appeared, moving Copy from the menu to the mode selection list was the first thought that came to mind and may still be done - it's more of a question of how many surround modes does one need before the list gets ridiculous.

As for the reverse function, it was born out of a tendency for some DVD-A users who had 7.1 speakers to want to use the rear surrounds instead of the side surrounds, so against our instincts gave them what they wanted (there is no reason a "music" system or mixing studio should be different from a "movie" one). I suspect the desire had something to do with how DVD-A was touted in its early days, calling for five identical full range speakers equally spaced from the listener. We saw that as unrealistic from the start and put the first and for quite a while the only processor on the market containing bass management, time alignment, and THX MusicMode on the analog multichannel-in (the AVM 20). The latter takes 5.1 input and turns it into 7.1 output without re-EQing. Since then, PLIIx Music mode has appeared to address the same sources although one main difference is that it emphasizes output from the side-surrounds rather than reducing their output so that overall level is the same with rear outputs combined.

Sorry to give you this news but it was just a little demand that brought them in and almost none left that's taking them out. Unrelated reasons in making this long standing decision (predates your last e-mail although fixing the bug was then a consideration) but with just as much impact if not more due to the disproportionate support involved are innumerable calls from new users* that do not set Rears to None with their 5.1 systems yet set Reverse to Yes, wondering why there's no surround, and to a lesser degree people looking for advice on how to use both direct and dipole for the sides, having them switch according to music vs movie, yet have the same amp channel connected to both (ultimately goes back to this... the system doesn't know whether it's playing music, a movie, or music in a movie soundtrack, and when blindfolded the majority prefers dipole surrounds when they're at a distance and in a room size that's typical at home - it makes no difference whether the sound is music or an explosion).

Solution to all of the above: Remove the two features. I hate to say this in response to your e-mail but in the last couple of years I've had no indication that more than one person is using either intentionally.

*to expand on the meaning of new user, it includes the new user of a used piece, for which tech support may already have been provided when the previous user used it

Best Regards,
Nick

Bob,

Thanks for the reply and information . I knew it had to be something simple, but for some reason I thought the number box in the ARC speaker config applied only to the sub woofers. Anyway, I works great now and I couldn't be more please with the resulting sound. Chuck

The "how" is in the manual but been getting "why" questions since our first processor so here's a typical response for anyone wondering:

------------------------

It's confusing so let's go to the beginning, how studios and theaters have been set up since the mid-1970s: A noise recorded or generated at known level* would be used to set playback level so the resulting sound pressure is 85 dB (C-weighted). This noise is pink noise, i.e. wide-band random noise.

Different from that, the noise built into Dolby-licensed home theater processors is filtered pink noise which doesn't have much energy below 500 Hz or above 2 kHz, reason being so crossover settings and frequency response in reference to the vocal range don't affect the level setting. The main thing is balancing speaker levels in the vocal range. Like you said, the number of dB is irrelevant unless you want Dolby or THX do decide for you how loud to play the movie. In that case set levels so output from each speaker is 75 dB. If using ARC, set only the noise level to 75 dB and ARC will balance each speaker to that.

(As for the frequency range that ARC looks at to balance levels, it's neither full-band like the studio method nor vocal range like the HT method but something between. A 1 dB disagreement with the SPL meter method isn't unusual and nothing to worry about.)

Now that the system is set up, the big question - where do you set the volume control? 0 dB for playback according to Dolby, +3.5 dB for playback according to THX, or anywhere else according to your heart's desire. All this originated from setting level in theaters, where you can't control the volume unless you're in the projection booth (must be nice during trailers of the arrogant variety). The Dolby and THX levels used to be the same but a few years ago Dolby lowered it by 3.5 dB.

*On paper and in practice are two different things... noise source has to be measured in RMS and limited to the audio range, 22 Hz - 22 kHz. The tools used in studios don't always do that and errors of a couple of dB aren't unusual - yet another reason I wouldn't be overly concerned with trying to be exact about this, minor variations will always be there. Play it at the volume you feel like! (...at least without affecting the health of your equipment and especially your ears).

The THX post processing setting is something entirely within the Anthem -- it has nothing to do with the disc you are playing or the track you select on that disc.

To turn THX post processing on or off press the THX button on the remote and use the up or down arrows to toggle it.

Whether or not THX post processing is on, you can SEPARATELY decide whether the "THX Re-Equalization" function is on. To do that, press the THX button TWICE and then use the up or down arrows to toggle. Again, there are two settings here: Re-equalization when the rest of the THX stuff is on and re-equalization when the rest of the THX stuff is off. The setting is remembered separately per input source device AND per type of audio coming from that input source device.

See Section 4.8.6 of the Manual for an explanation of the various things that THX post processing offers -- noting carefully that some of them only happen if you have a 7.1 speaker setup.

The Setup / Mode Presets menu allows you to specify the default audio mode for each type of audio possible to be input from each individual source input device. Select a Source and view the list of audio types. Scroll to one of those and you can then cycle through the list of available defaults. Note that some of the defaults allow you to set a mode with or without THX post processing turned on. When you switch to a new source the audio mode goes to the default you have specified in Mode Presets for the type of audio currently coming in from that source. You can also specify "Last Used" which means do NOT automatically change audio mode when I switch to this source but just leave it at whatever was last used from any input source.

You do NOT have the option of specifying whether THX RE-Equalization is on or off by default in Mode Presets. So whether or not you specify THX as part of the default audio modes in Mode Presets, if you like to play with whether THX Re-Equalization is on or off it is wise to double check its current setting (press the THX key twice) when you switch to a new source or new type of audio from the current source (e.g. 2.0 input vs. 5.1 input).

The reason you are likely seeing the THX indicator when viewing your 6 channel PCM source (your Blu-Ray player?) is that you probably have THX included in the Mode Preset for 6 channel input from that source. And keep in mind that if you use the various overlayed inputs (e.g., DVD2 vs. DVD3 etc.) that EACH overlayed input definition gets its own separate set of Mode Presets as well. So check each set that you use.

ETA: Also NOTE that some audio modes (e.g., Mono-Academy) are *NOT* available if THX post processing happens to be turned on. So if you don't see an audio mode you expect to see, double check whether THX post processing happens to be on (press THX button once and toggle using the up or down arrows).
--Bob

Interesting! If it turns out to be a software issue, I wonder why we are not getting more reports here since most posters are now on V1.33 (except for a few stick in the muds like DRHANKZ! Boy if it turns out he was correct to hold off on V1.33, he'll be impossible to live with! ).
--Bob

I'm always impossible to live with

I love reading about all the fun you guys are having.

Seriously = The only reason I am still on 1.11 is
because everything WORKS. I have not bought ARC
yet - so everything works just fine with 1.11.

Someday - I will upgrade

Keep in mind that the only volume value ARC depends upon is Setup / Speaker Calibration / Noise Level which it uses for setting the level of its sweep test tones. The other, individual speaker levels you set in there when you do a manual setup are zeroed out by ARC during its testing and then re-loaded with the level values that ARC calculates.

And of course ARC also depends upon the internal volume control setting you've made in any speaker that has its own powered amp and volume control -- most commonly your subwoofer.

In the pre-ARC setup process I wrote up a while back, I suggested setting the LF and subwoofer volume trims to 0dB just to avoid confusing yourself -- particularly while setting the subwoofer's internal volume control. But again, ARC itself only actually uses the value you specify in Noise Level. So if your actual speaker volume trim settings are flat out wrong, ARC will ignore and correct them.
--Bob

I did some more listening with the 12KHz ARC setup and still haven't found any problems. I'm not done testing this by any means, and I remain skeptical.

The Calculated curves show the biggest improvement above 5KHz in my Center speaker, and I believe the Center speaker is sounding cleaner. But I also think I may be hearing a dullness or deadness to the sound. Again, I've not really reached a conclusion yet. I need to listen to a wider range of content.

Nevertheless, this 12KHz setup is *NOT* obviously wrong as was the case when I tried this back in the ARC V1.1 days.

By the way, I just picked the 12KHz value out of a hat since that's what people have been talking about this time. When I tried this stuff under ARC V1.1 I used 10KHz. I also did a calculation at 20KHz back then, but noted some degradation in the Calculated results curves down at the lower frequencies when I did that, so I backed off to 10KHz to see if that would cure the harshness I was hearing. It didn't.

There really doesn't seem an obvious point in my Measured curves to set that Target if I don't go with the default 5KHz. So the 12KHz I'm using for this test is probably as good a choice as any.

I plan on posting some ARC charts here in a little bit.
--Bob

Bob, I've sent you a PM

...and back at'cha!
--Bob

Thanks for the info Bob, such wealth of knowledge from you is always welcomed. And yes I understand I can'\ play the PS3 on the 2nd tv. I don't wish to do this. Only the cable and SACD/DVD-A player will run through to the 2nd tv.

trev

Been meaning to ask this question for a while.

Ok, we are told that the measured freq response we see on the graph represents the overall average response from the various positions where we placed the mic.

What then does the calculated freq response represent? Assuming we are able to take measurements again after having uploaded the results and with EQ set to ON, will we be seeing the response as the calculated at EACH of the mic positions? Meaning that will we hear the same quality sound ANYWHERE WITHIN the area where measurements were taken from?
-Ben

There will always be some residual variation between listening positions even with ARC, but ARC works to minimize that -- minimizing in particular the components of that which result from "room modes".

ARC sets a series of room correction steps in motion. Of course ARC can't predict where you will actually sit down in the listening room so the same room correction parameters are applied to the output of any given speaker without regard to where you are sitting. By taking measurements at several mic positions, ARC can detect the patterns of room response variation -- the room modes -- which would be expected to recur even at listening positions distinct from the specific set of mic locations you used. By reducing those, ARC increases the chance that EVERY seating position (in the area where you did the measurements) will give you the same good results -- barring of course the slight variations in volume and sound arrival timing when you sit closer or further from any given speaker.

The room correction stuff is just math of course.

That means it is possible to mathematically model what those correction parameters will do to any given frequency response curve coming out of each speaker. It is my understanding that the ARC "Calculated" curve does just that -- using the averaged Measurement curve as the one to evaluate. I.e., the ARC application feeds that averaged Measurement curve into the math it has set up as Room Correction parameters for that speaker. And the Calculated curve is what results.

So if you happened to sit in a portion of the room that heard precisely that Measurement curve from that speaker then the Calculated curve shows what you would now hear with ARC turned on. Of course since the Measurement curve is an average, it doesn't show what you would expect to hear from ANY seating position. But the combination of the Measurement curve and the resulting Calculated curve gives you a basis for seeing how well ARC is able to apply its resources to the problems inherent in your listening room.
--Bob

Well this will be good news for drhankz. Nick said the hissing is a known problem with the AVM50 not D2. They are working on it. Howvever I will have to support drhankz in that 1.11e worked the best for me too, but I couldn't resist

John

Here are the ARC charts I promised. All of these are based on the same set of Measurements with ARC V1.2.2 -- 5 mic positions spaced 30 inches apart (120 inches from end to end) in a slight arc in towards the screen for the outer two positions.

I've got charts for MAX EQ Frequencies of 5KHz (the default that I had been using), 12KHz (the new calculation that I'm using now), and 20KHz (another calculation that I just ran to see what the charts look like -- I've not Uploaded or listened to this one). Here are the Targets panels for the 5KHz, 12KHz, and 20KHz versions. As you can see, the only difference is the manual change I made for the MAX EQ Frequency:





===============================================

The charts that now follow are for my "Movie" configuration. This is a 5.1 setup so the Left and Right surround curves will appear in both charts.

First up is the 5KHz version:




=======================================

Next is the 12KHz version -- the one I'm actually listening to now:




======================================

And now the 20KHz version. Note that the Center Speaker in particular shows more lower frequency variation in this version. Presumably this is due to ARC using its resources at the higher frequencies:




======================================

For my "Music" configuration I have removed the Center Speaker. Presumably the differences between Movie and Music are somewhat due to slight variations in mic positioning for these two passes as well. But there is an interesting result here. Note that the Right Front speaker Calculated curve is smoother BELOW 5KHz in the 12KHz chart than in the 5KHz chart! Meanwhile the Left Surround speaker shows more oscillation in the 12KHz chart than in the 5KHz! I don't know whether this is meaningful or is just a limitation of the small amount of info that can be represented in one, averaged curve. The 5KHz Music configuration is first (I didn't include the second chart that just shows the subwoofer since there is no interesting change from the Movie charts above). The 12KHz Music configuration follows that:




===================================

Of course the charts don't mean as much as how things actually sound in real use. I'll probably have more to say on that later.
--Bob

This is what was told to me by my sales person:

"Just received an e-mail from Anthem announcing their soon to be available
new ARC-1 Kit Plus for existing AVM 40's and AVM 50's! They are saying mid
July for availability. Based on the info we have now, your price will be
$709.95 Each kit ordered requires the serial # of the processor it is to be
installed in. I am not sure yet if we can do the upgrade here or if the
pre/pro has to be sent to them, but I will find out and let you know."