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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 497

post #14881 of 42717
Cool! I still haven't spotted anything on their web site.

It's also good to see they have the AVM-40 upgrade on the same date as the AVM-50 upgrade.

Did you by any chance get info from your dealer on what the bundle price (and availability) might be for someone ordering a *NEW* AVM-40 or AVM-50 with ARC?

-------------------------------

My understanding is that any Anthem dealer who was able to handle the old AVM-20 DSP board swap out should also be able to handle the swap out for the AVM-40 and AVM-50 ARC upgrade. So there's no need to send the unit to the factory.
--Bob
post #14882 of 42717
I have been told it will be dealer installable. No need for cross border shipping except for the kit
John
post #14883 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Cool! I still haven't spotted anything on their web site.

It's also good to see they have the AVM-40 upgrade on the same date as the AVM-50 upgrade.

Did you by any chance get info from your dealer on what the bundle price (and availability) might be for someone ordering a *NEW* AVM-40 or AVM-50 with ARC?

-------------------------------

My understanding is that any Anthem dealer who was able to handle the old AVM-20 DSP board swap out should also be able to handle the swap out for the AVM-40 and AVM-50 ARC upgrade. So there's no need to send the unit to the factory.
--Bob

I didn't ask about any bundle pricing or availability. I will let you know if I find out.
post #14884 of 42717
When you're passing a 1080p signal through the Anthem as in a Blue-Ray, is the Anthems Gennum processor doing anything to the signal?
post #14885 of 42717
Depends on your output setting to your display. If output form the ps3 is the same as the output to your display then nothing is done. Usually you set output from the ps3 to the Bluray's native resolution and let the anthem convert it to the native resolution of the display. Hope that helps.
John
post #14886 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

There will always be some residual variation between listening positions even with ARC, but ARC works to minimize that -- minimizing in particular the components of that which result from "room modes".

ARC sets a series of room correction steps in motion. Of course ARC can't predict where you will actually sit down in the listening room so the same room correction parameters are applied to the output of any given speaker without regard to where you are sitting. By taking measurements at several mic positions, ARC can detect the patterns of room response variation -- the room modes -- which would be expected to recur even at listening positions distinct from the specific set of mic locations you used. By reducing those, ARC increases the chance that EVERY seating position (in the area where you did the measurements) will give you the same good results -- barring of course the slight variations in volume and sound arrival timing when you sit closer or further from any given speaker.

The room correction stuff is just math of course.

That means it is possible to mathematically model what those correction parameters will do to any given frequency response curve coming out of each speaker. It is my understanding that the ARC "Calculated" curve does just that -- using the averaged Measurement curve as the one to evaluate. I.e., the ARC application feeds that averaged Measurement curve into the math it has set up as Room Correction parameters for that speaker. And the Calculated curve is what results.

So if you happened to sit in a portion of the room that heard precisely that Measurement curve from that speaker then the Calculated curve shows what you would now hear with ARC turned on. Of course since the Measurement curve is an average, it doesn't show what you would expect to hear from ANY seating position. But the combination of the Measurement curve and the resulting Calculated curve gives you a basis for seeing how well ARC is able to apply its resources to the problems inherent in your listening room.
--Bob

Thanks, Bob, for the clarification.

If I understand you correctly, the various mic positions are simply data collecting maneuvers to determine room characteristics which are then compared to an ideal setting. The resultant differences are then applied to correct the current data (much like feedback correction in amps?). The end result is an improvement in terms of frequency response, with all its accompanying benefits (imaging, etc.), within the listening area, but doesn't necessarily change the physical charateristics (extension) of the area's 'sweet spot'.

One thought comes to mind. Surely this can also be simply done with a digital equaliser feature, much like the Velodyne SMS-1 which seems a lot more user friendly?

I do wish the ARC-1 would permit a measurement with EQ = ON. Users who have access to frequency measuring equipment should, however, be able to take independent readings and compare these with the calculated curve. It would certainly be interesting to see how successful this correction feature is, rather than basing our opinion on subjective listening.
-Ben
post #14887 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

This is what was told to me by my sales person:

"Just received an e-mail from Anthem announcing their soon to be available
new ARC-1 Kit Plus for existing AVM 40's and AVM 50's! They are saying mid
July for availability. Based on the info we have now, your price will be
$709.95 Each kit ordered requires the serial # of the processor it is to be
installed in. I am not sure yet if we can do the upgrade here or if the
pre/pro has to be sent to them, but I will find out and let you know."

Anyone know if they are going to include the AVM 30's in this?
post #14888 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by benleeys View Post

One thought comes to mind. Surely this can also be simply done with a digital equaliser feature, much like the Velodyne SMS-1 which seems a lot more user friendly?

Yes and no. The live readouts are wonderful but they are limited display resolution. Also, one must add the multimic kit to sample more than one position with the SMS-1. Also, time-domain effects of the SMS-1 are not assessable with the provided equipment. Finally, SMS-1 is limited to the subwoofer channel.
post #14889 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

This is what was told to me by my sales person:

"Just received an e-mail from Anthem announcing their soon to be available
new ARC-1 Kit Plus for existing AVM 40's and AVM 50's! They are saying mid
July for availability. Based on the info we have now, your price will be
$709.95 Each kit ordered requires the serial # of the processor it is to be
installed in. I am not sure yet if we can do the upgrade here or if the
pre/pro has to be sent to them, but I will find out and let you know."

This is a good news. The stuff is coming
post #14890 of 42717
Now that I've run ARC a few time in my theater...I've got to thinking. I calibrate it with just the mike and stand in the theater room. However, 50% of use in the room is movie watching with just me added to the equation. 25% of use is movie watching with my wife and I, and 25% of movie watching is a full house of 6 people. Wonding how up to 6 extra bodies affect the results. Not that I would do this...but could one store 3 data sets in the software and update as the situation calls for? I may have to get some dummy seat fillers
post #14891 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by benleeys View Post

Thanks, Bob, for the clarification.

If I understand you correctly, the various mic positions are simply data collecting maneuvers to determine room characteristics which are then compared to an ideal setting. The resultant differences are then applied to correct the current data (much like feedback correction in amps?). The end result is an improvement in terms of frequency response, with all its accompanying benefits (imaging, etc.), within the listening area, but doesn't necessarily change the physical charateristics (extension) of the area's 'sweet spot'.

Not at all. Taming the room response is a major factor in increasing the sweet spot -- making sure all listening positions hear the same high quality audio. ARC does a great job of this. In a normal listening room you can get significant variations, particularly in bass response, across the length of a sofa. ARC dramatically reduces or eliminates that.

Keep in mind that the frequency response curves shown in the ARC charts are only one small measure of what it accomplishes. Listen to what ARC produces. Trust your ears.

As to your SMS-1 question, I have a DD series Velodyne subwoofer which incorporates the technology of the the SMS-1 plus digital servo feedback. The automatic EQ setup in that Velodyne stuff doesn't come anywhere CLOSE to what ARC does for you. And if you take the time to work with the Velodyne stuff manually to get the best you can achieve (think WEEKS of trial and error here), you end up with a good result -- much better than what its automatic system produces -- but still not even close to as good as what ARC produces.
--Bob
post #14892 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkvisionsinc View Post

Anyone know if they are going to include the AVM 30's in this?

So far, the AVM-30 units have been conspicuously absent from every mention I've seen on this. I don't know why.
--Bob
post #14893 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoram View Post

Now that I've run ARC a few time in my theater...I've got to thinking. I calibrate it with just the mike and stand in the theater room. However, 50% of use in the room is movie watching with just me added to the equation. 25% of use is movie watching with my wife and I, and 25% of movie watching is a full house of 6 people. Wonding how up to 6 extra bodies affect the results. Not that I would do this...but could one store 3 data sets in the software and update as the situation calls for? I may have to get some dummy seat fillers

Not in the current D2 software. And Uploading different ARC setups probably takes longer than most people would want to wait (about 5 minutes).

Although you could probably measure differences with lab tools, so far I haven't detected any variation in audio with or without people in the room that's anywhere near as dramatic as the fundamental corrections ARC provides. In other words, don't worry about it. With a reasonable number of people sitting down to watch you will still get ARC audio that everyone likes. And if the room is full of people for a party, it doesn't really matter since nobody is doing critical listening anyway. What's much more important is whether you are inside or outside the surround "sound field".
--Bob
post #14894 of 42717
Hi Guys,
I know you've touched on this subject before, but could you explain again the logic behind running the ARC only to the 5kHz level.
Logically, since we hear from @ 20Hz to 20kHz it would seem to make sense to do the calibration spanning the normal hearing range.
What am I missing?
How many of you all have tried running ARC at more than 5kHz, and what were your impressions?
Tom
post #14895 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

...... Trust your ears ....

Ughh ... not when you are afflicted with tinnitus like me ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

.....As to your SMS-1 question, ..... still not even close to as good as what ARC produces.

Point taken. Thanks again, Bob. Just found my SMS-1 manual-eq is dead (self-eq still works, though) when I tried to take new measurements after having additional bass traps and diffusers installed. Sighhh .... so now I have to rework the ARC to do without it.
-Ben
post #14896 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes and no. The live readouts are wonderful but they are limited display resolution. Also, one must add the multimic kit to sample more than one position with the SMS-1. Also, time-domain effects of the SMS-1 are not assessable with the provided equipment. Finally, SMS-1 is limited to the subwoofer channel.

Agreed, Kal, but I was just, for the sake of discussion, using the SMS-1 as an example. To do a ARC-1 style will of course require an equaliser that covers the whole frequency spectrum and a lot more freq adjustment points. I don't know if you're ancient enough to remember the SAE eq/preamp unit which I used to own. Digital didn't quite exist as yet and all we had was our pair of ears.
-Ben
post #14897 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

Hi Guys,
I know you've touched on this subject before, but could you explain again the logic behind running the ARC only to the 5kHz level.
Logically, since we hear from @ 20Hz to 20kHz it would seem to make sense to do the calibration spanning the normal hearing range.
What am I missing?
How many of you all have tried running ARC at more than 5kHz, and what were your impressions?
Tom

ARC uses the measurements at the different mic positions to distinguish between room response (varies by location) and inherent speaker performance (doesn't vary by location). The correction stuff that ARC does depends upon its ability to make this distinction.

But higher frequencies of audio are increasingly "directional". The pattern of output from each speaker (distribution across the listening area) is less uniform as the frequency goes up. The spread horizontally and vertically is also different. And the same is true for reflections of the audio.

That means ARC will hear variations at the different listening positions that have to do with directionality rather than room modes. Thus it will be mislead into doing the wrong type of correction.

It is amazing that ARC works as well as it does up as high as 5KHz.

---------------------------------------

Anyway, that's the theory. Various posters (including me) are starting to experiment with a higher frequency Target. Nick at Anthem remains quite firm in his advice that you should *NOT* raise the Max EQ Frequency Target above 5KHz. Even though raising it may make the Calculated curves look better, that result can be misleading if ARC is basing its calculations on bad data -- variations at the mic positions due to directionality.

Despite that, we already have a few posters here who state that a higher frequency setting is helping in their listening rooms. This is a developing story. Stay tuned. Film at 11:00.
--Bob
post #14898 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by benleeys View Post

Agreed, Kal, but I was just, for the sake of discussion, using the SMS-1 as an example. To do a ARC-1 style will of course require an equaliser that covers the whole frequency spectrum and a lot more freq adjustment points. I don't know if you're ancient enough to remember the SAE eq/preamp unit which I used to own. Digital didn't quite exist as yet and all we had was our pair of ears.-Ben

I do recall the SAE. Just a multiband PEQ (forget GEQ) alone is insufficient, you need to determine the decay characteristics of the modes and know how to deal with them, it is not simple plug-and-play. Take a look at the RoomEQ Wizard Software to get an appreciation of what is involved.
post #14899 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Anyway, that's the theory. Various posters (including me) are starting to experiment with a higher frequency Target. Nick at Anthem remain quite firm in his advice that you should *NOT* raise the Max EQ Frequency Target above 5KHz. Even though raising it may make the Calculated curves look better, that result can be misleading if ARC is basing its calculations on bad data -- variations at the mic positions due to directionality.

The 'directionality' has both to do with the mic and with the speakers. In my case, all (many!) measurements were unanimous in finding an HF roll-off on the right speaker, something that I had detected by ear before measuring. In this case, increasing the HF target limit had the salubrious effect of restoring tonal balance across the front three speakers, something that was as audible as expected.
post #14900 of 42717
Kal,
How high up did you end up going? And did you spot any issues (in the charts or by ear) in the lower frequencies as a consequence?
--Bob
post #14901 of 42717
BTW, flipping through the setup menus yesterday and thought of a question. Is it necessary to input the distances from speakers to listening areas if you are using ARC?
post #14902 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzzdoc View Post

BTW, flipping through the setup menus yesterday and thought of a question. Is it necessary to input the distances from speakers to listening areas if you are using ARC?

Yes.

The correct speaker distances and the correct subwoofer Polarity and Phase settings have to be entered manually in the Setup menu. You can do this either before or after taking ARC Measurements without having to re-Measure, re-Calculate, or re-Upload your ARC results. The ARC stuff will just sound better after you have made these manual adjustments.

Do not fiddle with the Speaker Configuration / Cross Over settings or the Speaker Calibration level settings after Uploading ARC results or you will screw up what ARC has set up. In particular, make sure you Save User and/or Installer Settings after Uploading ARC results so that you don't accidentally screw up these settings by Reloading from one of those memories.

Other settings such as Center EQ, Room Resonance Filter, and THX Ultra2 Subwoofer (with Boundary Gain Compensation) are ignored for sources where ARC is active (i.e, where Room EQ = ON is set). The ARC stuff supersedes those simpler correction tools.

If you have more than one subwoofer and have been using "2 subwoofers" in the Setup / Speaker Configuration, ARC will change that to 1 subwoofer when you Upload ARC results. Leave it set that way.
--Bob
post #14903 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Kal,
How high up did you end up going? And did you spot any issues (in the charts or by ear) in the lower frequencies as a consequence?
--Bob

Audibly, I had to go to a minimum of 10kHz to get what I needed and increases beyond that sounded the same. I have not carefully examined the charts for each but I will.
post #14904 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Other settings such as Center EQ, Room Resonance Filter, and THX Ultra2 Subwoofer (with Boundary Gain Compensation) are ignored for sources where ARC is active (i.e, where Room EQ = ON is set). The ARC stuff supersedes those simpler correction tools.

Can I add a Room Resonance Filter to the ARC corrections? (I will try this weekend, anyway.)
post #14905 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Can I add a Room Resonance Filter to the ARC corrections? (I will try this weekend, anyway.)

I haven't done the experiment to confirm this, but the updated V1.3x manual (Section 3.15) says that the Room Resonance Filter is one of the things that is automatically disabled (i.e., the settings are ignored) for sources where Room EQ = ON is set.

ETA: Even though the Filter itself gets disabled, I don't know what happens if you run the test tones offered in the Room Resonance Filter menu. I.e., I don't know if those test tones would be modified by the ARC stuff or would bypass ARC. If they DO go through the ARC stuff that might be an interesting way to double check the ARC corrections in the region below the cross over.
--Bob
post #14906 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I haven't done the experiment to confirm this, but the updated V1.3x manual (Section 3.15) says that the Room Resonance Filter is one of the things that is automatically disabled (i.e., the settings are ignored) for sources where Room EQ = ON is set.
--Bob

I will try it. My LF waterfalls show that, while ARC has a substantially positive effect on room modes, an additional single frequency reduction would be useful.
post #14907 of 42717
Presuming you can't get the Room Resonance Filter to combine with ARC, that might be a reasonable application for something like the SMS-1 in conjunction with ARC.

You might want to ask Nick to run your results by the ARC designers to find out why that one room mode wasn't tackled.
--Bob
post #14908 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I will try it. My LF waterfalls show that, while ARC has a substantially positive effect on room modes, an additional single frequency reduction would be useful.

I agree. If possible this should be re-enabled in the next version.
post #14909 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by benleeys View Post

Agreed, Kal, but I was just, for the sake of discussion, using the SMS-1 as an example. To do a ARC-1 style will of course require an equaliser that covers the whole frequency spectrum and a lot more freq adjustment points. I don't know if you're ancient enough to remember the SAE eq/preamp unit which I used to own. Digital didn't quite exist as yet and all we had was our pair of ears.
-Ben

I think Kal's point was the TIME-domain stuff - which simple EQ does not affect (much) - may be the key differentiator in the Arc-1.

Or maybe that's just my belief and I'm projecting.
post #14910 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdc View Post

I think Kal's point was the TIME-domain stuff - which simple EQ does not affect (much) - may be the key differentiator in the Arc-1.

Or maybe that's just my belief and I'm projecting.

You got it.
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