Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 528

Bob,

Will you be at CEDIA this year? Any word if Nick will be there also?

I certainly hope so but the evidence is not strong. The man behind these releases has been an almost solitary champion of music-only HD discs, first with his HD-DVD series and now with these Blu-Rays, all of which derive from old(er) Naxos originals. So, while I applaud Alexander Jero's efforts, it will take more than one man's efforts and more than remastered recordings to make this a medium.

Although I am not a fan of video concerts, it may be that producers and many buyers would find Blu-Rays with video content more attractive. In fact, I have been hugely impressed with the Opus Arte, Universal and Harmonia Mundi opera and ballet Blu-Rays, even though I usually only listen to them after the first 1 or 2 viewings.

Still, it is early and I am trying to stay optimistic.

Personally, I'm hoping that hi-def concert videos catch on.
The few I've watched\\own are outstanding and my casual viewer friends are blown away. I also have very high hopes for the upcoming Neil Young Archive set.

I will not be there, so I'm depending on the rest of you to dig up all the good stuff!
--Bob

Personally I think audio-only Blu-Ray is a product for the end of NEXT year, perhaps not even making it for Christmas next year. That's why I was surprised to see these showing up right now.

This Christmas will be the end of CDs, and players featuring "higher end" audio are already slated for the end of this year. BD profile 3.0 players (audio-only players) will probably first start showing up for Christmas next year. And as attractive as downloading might be, a non-volatile multi-gigabyte memory pre-loaded with high quality audio will still be a winner.

The HD-DVD version was premature and of course that's gone now. The key thing is that every Blu-Ray player, particularly every Blu-Ray player sold into an HDMI-based surround sound setup, is ready to go for audio like this.

I'll be very surprised if it doesn't take off by 2010.
--Bob

I hope you are right. I invested heavily in SACD (and I am not sorry that I did) but, as it fades, I look forward to a successful replacement medium with comparably high quality and multichannel.

+1

Another interesting sign about the maturing of Blu-Ray is that specialty "quality" labels are starting to put their toe into the water. For example, at Amazon search for "criterion" within "blu-ray".

And I think we are getting pretty close to the point were you can say new Blu-Ray players do standard DVDs just as well, and just as conveniently as the best standard DVD players. The new Pioneer players may even pull that off, although right now they still seem to have performance issues that keep them out of that class.

But on the audio side you still need a few things to happen. First, the retailers need to be convinced the time has come to replace CD shelf space with something else. Poor sales of CDs this Christmas will do that.

Then you need the price to come down on the cheapest Blu-Ray players. That will happen next year. Even the cheapest Blu-Ray players will play audio-only Blu-Ray discs and all you have to do is have the stereo down-mix sound better than CDs on cheap CD players (not hard) and MP3/iPod downloads in at least the lossy formats (only slightly harder). They will be heavily advertised as having "Full Blu-Ray Quality!" even though that's not the case.

Then you need the mainline manufacturers to announce the first BD 3.0 (audio-only) players. That will almost certainly happen next year. A key piece of this will be getting the power consumption down far enough in the chip sets to allow portable units, and since audio processing doesn't need anywhere near the bandwidth of video that's not that hard (particularly when playing only the "core" or "associated" lossy tracks). Again, this will be oversold as to quality but the "Blu-Ray" buzzword will suffice to carry that over the top.

And finally you just need some time to pass for folks with SACD and DVD-Audio libraries to start transferring them to Blu-Ray. There's a ready library of that stuff and the SACD stuff, in particular, is almost certainly ready for transfer from a licensing perspective (due to Sony's influence). So it just takes some time for folks to do the work. But an audio-only transfer should be a LOT faster/cheaper to produce than mastering a film for Blu-Ray.

NEW recordings for Blu-Ray will only happen when sales of prior titles show the market is there. But unlike when SACD and DVD-Audio launched there is ALREADY a tidy library of recordings that can be easily resold as Blu-Ray, and so the market can be primed with those.

Now the earliest titles will be niche market titles of course, the same as happened when CD started to begin with. And the producers need to figure out how to take advantage of the capacity of Blu-Ray discs. The "one hour of music" model just won't cut it in the long run. And quality alone can not be the differentiator. But by putting "extras" on the disc -- e.g., lower quality "earlier versions" of the music or commentary tracks, or slide shows or even video documentaries for when the discs are played on video Blu-Ray players -- it can be a new experience. Fill up the disc with lower quality crap like this and no download can match it. Heck they could even do stuff with BD-Live I suppose.

It is a well established fact that consumers gravitate towards releases that come with lots of "extras", even if they never actually view/listen to them. They'll even pay MORE money for a poorer quality transfer so long as it comes with extras. And they'll buy the same title multiple times to get newer ones that now come with extras. Ka-ching!

The thing is, none of that "extras" nonsense has to happen to get it STARTED. Over time they can RE-RELEASE the SAME audio tracks on new discs with the extras and sell them a 2nd time or even a 3rd time to the same buyers. Eventually, "extras" on an audio disc will become expected, but to start it will be a real cash cow -- churning out multiple sales of the same title for only a tiny investment in producing the extra content.

And at $15 to $20 a pop for JUST AUDIO -- higher for discs with lots of "extras" or for releases from the "high quality" labels.

Oh my yes, I can't see the music business passing up an opportunity like this.

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ETA: One other thing that likely has to happen is for player makers and AVR makers to do proper QA on whether people can use players and AVRs to play music over HDMI when the TV is turned off (i.e., getting the HDCP copy protection stuff to work right when there's no TV to talk to). It's astounding to me, but there are still players and still AVRs being launched that screw this up.
--Bob

No I haven't but I believe it is plugged into hdmi1. I guess I could try input 3 or 4.

BEFORE MOVING THE PLUG! Get a flashlight and take a careful look at both the plug and the current HDMI socket looking for pin damage. If you see any, DO NOT USE THE SAME CABLE. Get a new cable.

Pin damage can be transferred from socket to socket if the plug is damaged.

If you have an HDMI controller failure then of course you won't spot anything here. And of course you still have video so pin damage is less likely than if you had complete loss of both audio and video. But it is wise to check anyway whenever you are moving plugs to different sockets due to any sort of HDMI signal problem.
--Bob

Pin damage is not possible as I never unplugged the hdmi cable before doing the update to V1.33. I unplugged the power cord instead. It worked before the upgrade and after the upgrade I get no sound but I do get picture. I also use port savers so as to not damage my D2.

John

Okey doke!
--Bob

Just got a new BenQ W5000. Given it does 1080p/24, is the Gennum processor doing anything or has it become an expensive switcher between my Hd DVD and PS3 and the pj?
John

Even if the input and output resolutions and frame rates are the same, the Gennum is still in there chugging away. For example it implements the Picture settings in the Video Source Adjust menu. It also does the Custom cropping and scaling for folks doing Constant Image Height setups. It also provides output adjustment such as Custom Gamma Correction. Etc.
--Bob

2 years plus of having the best video processing is well worth every penny. We still have regular TV, 1080i HD and of course DVD's that need to be processed for optimum quality.

Since ARC was installed, I have not had any of those weird diagonal red and blue lines running through my setup menu. Still keeping my fingers crossed.
John

That's interesting. Are you using an AVM unit so that they had to install the new DSP board?
--Bob

Bob,
I was just wondering why the volume settings are so different during movie playback (-17 db) vs listening to music (-45). I am not sure if the noise reference level has anything to do with it but the noise referece level in the AVM50 is set to 4.0 to achieve 75 db across my Totem Mani-2 (4 ohm resistance). Does this seem right? Thanks in advance.

German

Yes. Might be an unexpected bonus of ARC
John

Well that's a bit more extreme than I normally find, but there is often difference between various types of content.

I set my D2 around 75dB as well, and find that I do most music listening in the range -35db to -20dB and most movie listening in the range -25dB to -10dB with the variation depending on the particular stuff I'm playing. Jazz music almost always gets played at the low end of the music range, classical at the high end even though the subjective perception is that the resulting volume is similar. This is just the way those tracks have been mixed.

Very rarely I'll play a movie at 0dB -- almost always this is a movie on cable TV, so it is likely the cable service has futzed with its audio.

I have my system set to a power on volume of -45dB which is low, but enough sound that I can tell the audio is active.

A Noise Level of 4dB is not at all unusual, and no the Noise Level setting doesn't do anything different for Movie vs. Music playback.

Now if you are using analog inputs then there are other things in the Anthem that also affect the volume level. And some players have their own internal volume adjustments which often cause more problems than they are worth.
--Bob

That's possible. I'm thinking that some cables to/from the video board got reseated properly when the DSP board was swapped out.

If you've been in contact with Anthem about the problem you were seeing before, be sure to let them know that the ARC install seems to have fixed it.
--Bob

I have a similar situation in regards to the reference level. I have to set mine to +12 to obtain 75db. Does this have to do with mic distance or room volume or even the amount of sound treatment. My area is 17x35 with a 14' ceiling. It also has all corners treated and many 2x4x 4" panels placed in the room. Sounds great but was always curious why my ref level had to be increased so much. Also would speaker size or placement effect this also. I sit about 14' from the front speakers.

Dick

Dick,
There are several possibilities. First your speakers may be unusually inefficient. Not producing much volume of output for a given voltage of input. This can be compounded if your power amp is not well matched for inefficient speakers. In the extreme, your power amp may be going into a protect mode where it lowers it's output.

Next you may have some sort of dynamics reduction control turned on in your amp.

Next you may have the amp set incorrectly for whether you are using RCA or XLR cables from the Anthem. That can produce a 6dB error.

Of course your amp may have a problem. But since things sound OK I think that's not likely.
--Bob

The amp is a P5 and the speakers are the Salk HT3's-LF/RF/LS/RS/ and HTC center. Also 2 SVS PB12/2. I also checked the amp outputs and they are set for the RCa inputs I am using. Things don't sound ok,they sound wonderful. Just was curious of everything that could be causing this on my setup. The Salks do like a lot of power.Thanks for your reply.
Dick

I'm playing the two "audio-only" Blu-Ray discs I got from Amazon to try out the concept. This is using a PS3, an ARC'd D2, and a 5.1 speaker system.

The two discs I got -- both produced by "Surround Records" -- are the Vivaldi "Four Seasons", filled out with two "Concertos for Double Orchestra", and the Rachmaninov "Piano Concertos #2 & #3". These are high-bandwidth, 5.1 Naxos recordings originally produced for SACD. Surround Records has apparently processed them to add the additional rear channels and they are on disc as DTS-HD MA 7.1 24-bit/96KHz.

The Vivaldi contains 63 minutes of content and the Rachmaninov 74 minutes -- which would be nigh unto empty for a Blu-Ray disc with no video. However the PS3 reports that what it is actually seeing for these is an AVCHD recorded on a DVD-R!

And indeed there's something funky about the way they did it, because when you get to the end of the recording the PS3 gets confused. When you reach the end of the recording the disc does something like a Pause. The disc does not Stop on its own, nor can you Stop it using the remote. If you Eject it, it does in fact come out (thank God), but the PS3 still thinks it should be playing it because it doesn't go back to displaying the PS3 menu! And if you stick in another disc you get an error message from the PS3 saying you've inserted "The Wrong Disc".

So far, the only way I've found to get out of this state is to hold down the PS3 front panel power button long enough to force the PS3 to shut down. When powered up again, everything is back to normal.

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*** ETA: This problem at the end of the disc actually only happens with the Vivaldi as it turns out (I was typing this while playing the Rachmaninov). What the Rachmaninov does is restart from the beginning even though Repeat play is *NOT* turned on! But at least you can stop it at that point and get back to the XMB. ***

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That aside, the discs play just fine. They have no pop-up or Top menus and so they start playing without having to navigate any menus. Selecting Top menu during playback causes the disc to restart from the beginning. Selecting the pop-up menu does nothing.

They appear to respond normally to track forward/back operations.

They have just the one audio track, but apparently the liner notes say they WILL play the "core" DTS 5.1 track if your player or receiver can't handle the DTS-HD MA. There are, of course, no subtitles or angles.

The "video" is a black screen that the PS3 identifies as MPEG 2 at 909Kbs.

The audio is, as expected, DTS-HD MA 7.1. The bit rate on the Vivaldi varies between 10.5Mbps and 13.5Mbps. The Rachmaninov is not quite that high running from 9.5Mbps to around 12Mbps

Through the ARC'd D2 -- with the PS3 merging the rear channels back into the side channels to send 5.1 -- the audio sounds very good indeed!

This "Four Seasons" will not be one of my favorite recordings. The liner notes aptly report that it, "is given at houghtful performance." And just like that typo, it's a little bit off. But it SOUNDS wonderful.

The "Concertos for Double Orchestra" were something unexpected! They were recorded with the soloist between two orchestras -- one of which was put into the front channels and the other of which was put into the SURROUNDS!

Quite startling to say the least until you figure out what's going on! But my oh my it does show off the value of letting ARC do a full range correction on your surround speaker setup! For this recording you really do have to sit in the primary seating location (ARC mic #1) or the completely surrounding sound stage is just too distracting.

The Rachmaninov pieces were presented in the more traditional sound stage, thank God. I happen to like the Kissin performances of these better, which are not as traditional as these here by Scherbakov, but again the audio quality seems quite good indeed.

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So apparently there are still some kinks to get out of the "audio-only" Blu-Ray system here. In particular it is ridiculous for them to have issued these before verifying that a PS3 still works properly after reaching the end of the disc! I mean it's only the single most popular Blu-Ray player out there -- by far.

And I suspect the resort to AVCHD as the recording format is just a hack until the Blu-Ray consortium puts their official blessing on "true" audio-only Blu-Ray discs.

And as always, the CONTENT (in this case the performances) is fundamentally more important than the TECHNOLOGY of audio delivery and reproduction, but I think these two discs show there is a lot of potential for "audio-only" Blu-Ray as time goes on and more recordings come out.

And also, of course, it sounds very VERY good indeed through an ARC'd D2!
--Bob

You have a big room, average rooms are in the volume of 2500-3000 sq.ft.. Yours is 8330 sq.ft. Your speakers are just 85dB efficiency. You are sitting 14 ft or 4.2meters from the speakers. Therefore with inverse square law, for a doubling of distance a 6 dB drop in SPL is realized.

At your listening position (not taking into consideration room gain) your speaker's efficiency is just around 72dB at 1 watt which is quite low. At 200 watts output from your amp will just add 23dBf. Adding the 2 values yield 95 dB. HT specs say that the max output is 105 dB. This explains why your D2 has to increase the noise level by 12dB. (mine adds 6.5dB)

IMHO, your speakers are too inneficient for the size of your room.

Thank you for the explanation. I noticed in previous post most people were increasing only3 or 4 db. I am trying to somehow put a wall in the rear which would reduce the length by 15'. The problem is making it movable so I can open the room at times. I thought it may have mostly to do with the volume and distance. The way the room is designed it make it almost impossible to move the listening position forward.(combination great room and kitchen). Thanks again.
dick

They could very well be on DVD-R media. The BluRay format does not require a 25/50GB disc. You can record a BluRay video/audio onto anything you want, including a DVD-R. So I'd guess the PS3 is reporting it correctly.

Further, there's no such thing as audio-only BluRay, so he probably just recorded a 100% black video stream at a very low bitrate. With AVCHD (i.e. one of the many acceptable BluRay video formats), that would take up almost no space.

So it's a valid BluRay disc, with a 100% black video stream, recorded in AVCHD, on a DVD-R. Makes sense, and easy to do.

What was the audio stream? LPCM, DTS-HD/MA, TrueHD, something else?

DTS-HD MA 7.1 24-bit/96KHz audio. The black screen of video was MPEG2 at around 900Kbps.

It'll be interesting to see if the commercial audio discs recorded for Blu-Ray Profile 3.0 (audio-only) players are done the same way.
--Bob

It was MPEG2 but the PS3 was reporting AVCHD? Where did it report MPEG2?

My understanding of Profile 3.0 is that it's just a spec for players - that they can basically ignore most of the video features. I don't think there's any change to the disc recording itself. In fact I think a regular BD movie would play it in, much like a old Profile 1.0 player. The 3.0 players have to support the BD menuing system, I think.

I'd bet a diet-coke that the only thing that will be different from a BD movie is that the media will be regular 8GB DVD-R media, like what you're already seeing.