Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 95

In this rarified air it is sometime too easy to fall prey to the exagurated or the high tech hype, especially with the likes of some of the well informed and highly experienced coaches who will remain nameless Bob, Alain and Drhankz to name but a few. I actually met one of the sound engineers on some of my absolute favorite reference movies........what an incredible rush.....

Tonight I just put on one of my favorite concerts and played it at reference level. First.....it wasn't loud!!!!!It had presence and impact with virtually no rough edges. I give most of the credit to the Anthem D2/P5P2 combination with the M&k's finding new tonal qualities that just were not present with the Denon. I remember thinking with the Denon playing the same concert as tonight that I didn't think it could get any better for the genre in the same room. Well its not just a simple evolutionary step forward .....there is a new texture especially in the audio notwithstanding that the video provided as close to the actual experience of being on stage at the Greek Theater as it can get. Speilberg would not be happy with the lighting or the placing of a remote high definition camera right next to the drummers throne......what a colossal stupid goof but in all not too far from the real experience of being there.
My rather lengthy comment to your concern is that the audio punch offered may well have been assisted by the fact that the P5 had the power it needed to 'play it out' with as visceral effect as you would get sitting in the first row. It wasn't the volume, it was the phenomenal presence of 'being there'! Did those dedicated 20 amp circuits define that qualitative difference????? Truthfully I don't know but I'm glad I didn't take any chances as the result has very much enriched the core of my soul.
Sorry for the prosaic rambling I'll try not to do it again. I suspect Alain or Drhankz might be able to put it more scientifically if not succinctly!

Peter

The 24 on disc to 1080i output from player to 24 on display is interesting, including the results.

I have a Tosh A1 and an XA2 on order. I'll demote the A1 or firesale it. I assumed the 1080p would be better output into Anthem to a 1080p display, but the upgrade was more to get past the slow speed an get a generation better technology. If I was looking for a far superior picture, particularly with the Anthem in between, I assumed I would be disappointed, getting pretty much as good as it gets right now.

Obviously the jury is still out but not for long!!!!


Peter

DreamCatcher, thank you for verifying this. The jerkiness you describe matches what I have seen.

First, let me recap what I have observed:

1. The Sony Pearl DOES correctly support 24fps output. I have cofirmed this with an HTPC using several methods, using powerstrip to set the output to 1920x1080p@23.976hz:
a. A program called juddertest shows no judder in the moving horizontal line
b. A series of mpeg-2 transport stream test patterns created by dr1394. There is no judder in the horizontal moving line.
c. Various film based content does not show the 3:2 judder. A specific scene is in LOTR2 (the scene where treebeard sees the devastation caused by the Sauroman, and the other Ents show up -- lots of panning here). Also, many films have rock solid and smooth rolling credits at the end (whereas there is subtle judder at 60hz).
d. I have the HTPC input to the Anthem set to FrameLock=auto, so the anthem just sync's to 23.976hz, without changing the frequency.

2. The builtin timing values for 1080p@24 in the Anthem is 24.00hz, and this should likely be 23.976hz for most situations. The custom video resolution I created is closer to 23.976hz, and works correctly for a longer period of time, but still goes into the jerky mode. HOWEVER, the custom resolution less frequently "self-corrects" (temporarilly at least) to a non-jerky image. The builtin resolution does correct after some time period. Also, the jerkiness starts frequently during scene changes in the flim content (film/cadence detection problems?). ( I will play around more with custom timing values over the next week ).

3. This problem is not unique to the Toshiba HD-A1. Film based content played back through the Dish PVR921 (1080i output) has the same problem. The Island, Saving Private Ryan (both in HD) are a couple of examples where the problem manifests.

4. I also have a Sencore HDTV996 running custom software that can feed arbitrary mpeg-2 transport stream content from a file server modulated over an 8VSB HD OTA carrier (this is output onto OTA channel 14). This same content causes jerkiness when this content is "tuned" by the Dish PVR921 OTA HD tuner (note this is effectively a bit-perfect mpeg-2 transfer). When played back on the HTPC at 23.976hz, the jerkiness is not visible with the same mpeg-2 content.

5. If you want to reproduce the problem with the Toshiba HD-A1, with the Anthem set to framelock=off 1080p@24, insert the Mission Impossible 3 disc. You can hit the "display" button to get the timestamps.

a. goto scene 11 (bridge attack scene). sometimes, this jerks the first couple of seconds.
b. 1:02:11 (brief jerkiness with armored car).
c. 1:02:27 (close up of Tom cruise).
d. 1:03:08 lots of jerking here as the action heats up. The jerking lasts many seconds.
e. 1:03:50 jerking here when Tom Cruise is hanging upside down.
f. 1:04:34 jerking starts when the bad guys come into view sitting in the helicopter.

6. With the custom resolution, things are fine until approx 1:03:47, goes jerky, but recovers (temporarilly) a few seconds later.

It's possible this is just a timinig setting issue, but more analysis is required.

sfield,
Have you tried any of the same experiments with 480i/60Hz input from a standard DVD player playing film based content? If the D2 produces solid 1080p/24Hz from that then we are closing in on it. It would suggest that the 1080i cadence detection in the D2 has a problem.

Cadence detection and processing of a 480i source should be less of a challenge of course (bad edits notwithstanding), but the *OUTPUT* timing has to be the same. So if 480i/60Hz to 1080p/24Hz is essentially solid then the OUTPUT timing is right and it is the 1080i cadence detection at fault.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also have you had any contact with Anthem on this? The A1 experiments should be quite reproducible for them.

===================================================

EDITED TO ADD: Contrariwise, if the 480i input *ALSO* fails to produce solid 1080p/24Hz output then I thnk that points the finger at the output timing. Based on the HQV, standard DVD de-interlacing test disc I think the D2 has proven its ability to do cadence detection properly when fed 480i/60Hz input.
--Bob

No, I haven't tried these experiments with 480i content. I don't have any devices in my chain that output 480i over DVI/HDMI. I will trying hooking up the HD-A1 / PVR921 via component and set them to 480i, and try that.

The fact that the jerkiness frequently starts during scene changes is very suspicious.

I have talked to Anthem about this on several occasions. Nick indicated they don't have a Pearl or equivalent display hardware handy to verify this. Nick did suggest creating a custom resolution. (and the parameters he first provided, which I later adjusted, were significantly different than the 1080p24 settings bultin to the unit).

Also, as a followup to the Mission impossible 3 repro steps, the credits at the end show the problem clearly. They are smooth for a while, and then they jerk. There is sort of a subtle "shimmering" (not judder) around some of the text though, which isn't uniform across the horizontal plane. I haven't checked if this is present at 1080p@60 yet.

sfield,
480i COMPONENT video input from a standard, progressive DVD player should suffice for this test -- i.e., to determine if the D2 is able to put out solid 1080p/24Hz from a 480i source.
--Bob

If the cadence detection is screwed up for 1080i input (when targeting 1080p/24 output) then the de-interlacing is probably going to pot as well. This may be what you are seeing in that text. Since the resolution is quite a bit higher it won't be as obvious as de-interlacing failures (jaggies) of a 480 source.
--Bob

The actual broadcast rate for television in the US is 29.97fps for technical reasons involving the way the NTSC TV broadcast signal is decoded into its component parts upon reception.

This amounts to a 0.1% slowdown, or roughly 1 less frame for every 33 seconds of TV. The eyes and ears don't notice the difference.

Film intended for delivery to television sets is thus also slowed down by 0.1% as the first step in prepping it for conversion to TV format. The result is that the real film frame rate for NTSC television related media is 23.976fps. Then you can maintain the simple relationship that 4 frames of film have to happen in the same amount of time as 5 frames of NTSC TV -- i.e., nominally, 24fps compared to 30fps.

Alternatively that's 8 "fields" of film for every 10 "fields" of video. And that's why duplicating film "fields" in the 2, 3, 3, 2 cadence works to raise film rate to video rate -- the "telecine" process.

That said, the TV *SHOULDN'T BE THAT SENSITIVE* to this frame rate. There's some re-synching flexibility built into the system. So 1080p/24Hz signals should still sync up on a TV that ideally expects 1080p/23.976Hz.

I'm more inclined to believe that the problem is with the D2's cadence detection at 1080i/60Hz than with output signal timing.
--Bob

Bob for the life of me I don't know where you are getting this 'stuff' but it is most welcome and appreciated by us all.

My only fear is that my laptop is going to start singing "DAISY, DAISY" with your next post and if it does.......I'm outta here!

Peter

The Xbox 360 with HD DVD Drive does not support HDMI output. Thus, it is not possible to take advantage of the latest codecs and output them via HDMI & LPCM. That's one thing that I liked about the PS3, which supports decoding the advanced codecs and outputs them via LPCM output (at this time, DTS-HD is not supported but is planned for a future firmware upgrade). The PS3 also supports HDMI v1.3 for future receivers/preamps that can decode the codecs. Although I like the ease of use and integration associated with a standalone DVD player, I decided (for now) to use a PS3 instead of a standalone blu-ray player. The PS3 is also a lot quieter than the Xbox 360 - I can't hear it from where I sit - my projector is louder, actually. None of the standalone blu-rays support (or have officially stated they will support via firmware upgrade) all the advanced codecs _AND_ also output 1080p/24. So, I decided to get the PS3. Only disadvantage is a bluetooth remote (can't program commands in a universal remote such as my Pronto, although there have been some workarounds), and the PS3 only supports 1080p/60. But, we can't have it all, and in the future, once there is a standalone player that supports all the features I want, then I would get it (and not feel bad since the PS3 is still good for games, though I don' t have any time for games...). See the following web pages:

1. Compares PS3 with Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD add on:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/feature...x360addon.html

2. Compares PS3 with other standalone blu-ray players:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-...c-players.html


Sorry for getting a little off topic here, but lots of folks are just now adding high def DVD players to their Anthems....

The best way to go is the Tosh hd dvd a2, mine will be here Friday and I'm out buying the AVM50 to go with it, along with my Optoma HD 7100. I can't wait to take advantage of the best audio and picture quality available.

Bob, do you have any recomendations for setting up the avm-50 to work with direct tv's h20 sat box, I get only 2 channel audio via hdmi, that amongst many other issues.

OK, I tried this, OPPO at 480i to D2 via HDMI, set D2 to 1080p/24 and on to Pearl via HDMI.
Again video studdering
Also tried this via Directv native output 480i, 720p & 1080i
video studdering is always there with D2 set to 1080p/24, it goes away when set to 1080p/60..............

dc

dc

Roomraider,
Set the H20 to "native" output resolution so that it automatically passes along 480i, 720p, or 1080i according to what's coming in on each channel at the moment.

Set the H20 to expect a 16:9 TV, and set it to *NOT* generate pillar box bars either side of 4:3 content coming in on SDTV channels. Let the Anthem generate the pillar box bars as you desire by setting either Anamorphic (no bars) or Letter/Pillar Box in the Anthem's "Scale Output" setting for that input. This menu will be found as part of the Video Source Adjust menus by pressing and holding the "7" key on the Anthem remote while watching that input (as opposed to the Setup configuration menu).

You may find it best to set the Anthem's input setup for the H20 to HDMI Repeater = NO. This is in the Anthem's Setup / Source Selection menu.

Set the H20's digital audio to send out a "bitstream" instead of PCM. That will cure your lack of multi-channel audio on channels that are broadcasting that way.

If you find you are getting an annoying extra delay before audio starts when you change channels, you will likely find it better to run an optical audio cable from the H20 to the Anthem and set the Anthem to receive audio from that input instead of the HDMI cable. Again the H20 should be sending out the digital "bitstream" instead of PCM.

You'll have to describe what other problems you are having. There are quite a few people using that box with these Anthems so it shouldn't be hard to set you straight.
--Bob

OK so it appears that I do not know what the hell I'm doing.
$4000.00 for an Anthem AVM-50 and I don't see a video difference.
Sony 60" XBR 1 SXRD 1080I native, do I need a new 1080P display to resolve my problems?

Odds are all you need to do are to set the basic Blacks/Whites/Colors/Sharpness settings properly to take best advantage of the video capabilities of the Anthem and your TV.

Here's a post I made a while back in this thread which discusses the basics:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9198737

If you can describe the sorts of things you are seeing we might be able to offer more suggestions.
--Bob

Well this is certainly annoying!

**********************************************

ARE THERE ANY OTHER READERS OUT THERE WITH 1080p/24HZ CAPABLE DISPLAYS THAT HAVE MANAGED TO MAKE THIS WORK?

IF SO, PLEASE POST YOUR RESULTS.

YOUR RESULTS ARE VALUABLE WHETHER OR NOT YOUR DISPLAY ACTUALLY USES A /24Hz or /60Hz REFRESH RATE TO DISPLAY SUCH AN INPUT.

**********************************************

Anthem surely must have tried 1080p/24Hz video output on SOME display. And the recommendation to turn Frame Lock = OFF when viewing film content embedded in /60Hz input comes right from the Anthem V1.1x manual.

We need to get some more evidence here from other folks who can try this.
--Bob

Bob, I really appreciate your help, I really do and I'll try what you suggest, but my other problem is hooking up my theater pc to the anthem via DVI to HDMI, The Anthem doesn't recognize the video card which outputs native 1080 p. Prior to the Anthem it worked just fine straight to the display, loaded an older Nvidia driver, turned on the Anthem 1rst then started the PC and it recognized it but coming out of standby mode the Anthem drops the video signal and shows the blue screen/no signal. In addition to that, I tried using the AVM-50 setup software via serial cable and when I pressed "load settings" the AVM-50 shut off and displayed a message stating: there has been a power interuption, check the time. Wow! sorry to bother you with my nightmare.
This AVM-50 remote doen't have codes for my display, sat box or oppo 970 DVD player, If anyone has the proper codes I will forever be in your debt.

First off, thanks for the technical assistance on this thread regarding the D2!

Now, we've had the D2/P5 combo for about a month. I cannot express my sheer enjoyment listening to music through this set-up. Nine Ball put it right when he stated, "enriching the soul..."

The Oppo 970 arrives this week. Will post observations.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
"MIKEY"

For your HTPC you will likely need to insert a gadget called "DVI Detective" in the path that will deal with the resolution handshaking problem your HTPC and Anthem are having on startup. I don't use an HTPC myself, but there have been a few other HTPC posters on here saying that the problem had to do with resolutions changing as the video card starts up and the DVI handshake getting confused.

You may also find it useful to set HDMI Repeater = NO in the Anthem for your HTPC input. That makes the Anthem pretend to the source that the source is directly connected to a TV.

As for the PC software, tell us what version of firmware is installed on your AVM-50. To do this, turn it on and press the Select key on the remote. The firmware version is at the end of the first line of status info displayed.

When sending info between the Anthem and the PC the Anthem resets its internal time of day clock according to the time of day clock on the PC. If your PC's clock is set strangely (e.g., the year is way off), the Anthem may possibly reject that and then report that it's internal clock seems wrong (thus the apparent power fail message), which is just a reminder to you to set it manually using the Anthem's own Setup menu.

Alternatively, the serial connection between the Anthem and your PC may not be working properly. Are you by any chance using a USB to Serial adapter instead of a built-in Serial port on the PC?
--Bob

DC,
I'm going to beg your indulgence to run yet another 480i test:

Try toggling the HDMI Repeater setting for the Oppo input in the D2 to the other value from whatever you are using now.

It occurs to me that something may be getting confused here due to the extra communication that goes on between the Oppo and the Pearl (through the Anthem) when HDMI Repeater is set to YES.

Also, please go to the Info panel in the menus under the "7" key and report the precise input and output values the Anthem claims to be using when this fails. For example, the input from the Oppo should be reported by the D2 as HDMI YCbCr 4:4:4, 720x480i/59.94Hz.

Please report the output figures as well from that panel.

While we are at it, do the Video Source Adjust menus and bar charts themselves look stable and clean (no de-interlacing problems) when the Anthem is sending 1080p/24Hz to the Pearl?

----------------------------------------------

sfield or DC,
It would also still be useful to try the 480i input test using Component video just to try to nail down whether this is HDMI input related. Of course there's no Repeater setting for Component input.

We had some reports quite a ways back that some users found they needed to toggle the HDMI Sync setting in Setup / Video Output when sending different resolutions to their displays. There have been no such reports recently, and I presume whatever was going on there was fixed by subsequent Anthem software upgrades. I can't think how the HDMI Sync being wrong could result in what we are seeing, but if you get the chance to try the alternate Sync setting for this 1080p/24Hz output to your Pearl that would eliminate one other possibility.

The "correct" Sync setting will result in an image from the Anthem's built in test charts that is solid, and centered, without requiring any significant image repositioning in the display.
--Bob

Greetings,

My Sony Pearl is due here on Thursday. I have the Oppo as well and will give this a try. I also have the Panasonic DMP-BD10 Blu-ray player which can output 1080p.

I will report my findings.


Regards,

The electrician is coming out tomorrow to make sure about the power requirements and install the two 15 amp circuits. I understand that both the D2 and the P5 are supposed to go straight into the wall outlet or just the P5? Should I plug both into surge protectors? I understand no power conditioner/cleaner for the P5 but what about the D2?

I just got 1080p/48 working on the D2/Ruby Combination.

WORKS Perfectly.

Bob Thanks for the reply, I've only had the AVM-50 for a week or 2 and the firmware is v 1.11.
As for the 1rst portion of your reply, thats exactly what is happening, can you tell me where to obtain 1 of these devices you speak of?
I am using a fem to male serial cable and it shuts off the AVM-50 whenever loading the internal settings for setup, the video setup program doesn't have that problem.

Bob, OK checking as we speak
Setting repeater to NO actually seems to make the stuttering worst if that's possible. Pearl is showing receiving a 1080/24p signal. D2 is showing receiving 720 x 480i / 59.94 CP from the 970.
The info panel is showing
Input Status:
Video Source - HDMI RGB
Signal Type - 720x480i/59.94hz
Audio Source - N/A
Flim Mode - Off
Output Status:
Signal Type - 1920x1080p/24hz
Frame Rate - 24.00hz
Line Rate - 27000.00hz
Frame Lock - Inactive

Let me know if there's anything else......

dc

I believe DVI Detective is a Geffen product. Do a search in this thread as it was discussed a few times.

The Setup Editor, and the software Installer are *SUPPOSED* to power down the Anthem when communicating with it. The Installer actually does this a few times in the course of installing new software. This is not a problem. That's the way they are designed to work.

The clock related complaint is, as I said, possibly related to the current clock setting in your PC being strange.

You have the latest firmware for the Anthem. That's primarily what I wanted to check.
--Bob

You lucky dog!

OK, so when you say it is working perfectly, does that include 480i/60Hz film based input and 1080i/60Hz film based input with Frame Lock=OFF?
--Bob

DC,
OK, except that you should set the output on your Oppo to YCbCr for better color rendition than you'll get with RGB, I see nothing odd here.

[YCbCr is what comes off the DVD discs, and it is the standard format for HDMI connections.]

I'll have to ponder this some more, but this really looks like a problem Anthem is going to have to tackle.
--Bob