Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1317

Understood, but his measured response could also be a placement issue... that curve would seem to indicate a lack of low frequency boundry gain. It's an SVS sub, though I'm not familiar with that model and I don't see it on their site, but the PB12-NSD is flat to 18hz, and the PB1000 (a 10" driver) is flat to 19hz... so it's not unreasonable his his could easily hit 20hz.

I just don't think 18 or 19 Hz is going to make much difference as they are probably best case numbers. They'll drop in loudness at high volume likely so until the location is optimized, I'd stick with auto.
John

I did some screen caps of the ARC application window to perhaps help describe what is going on:






Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

You should not ask (force) ARC to correct above the recommended 5Khz, because if your mic cannot measure accurately above 8Khz the software will try to raise the level above 8Khz to make the curve flat and your system will sound harsh.
Sometime the dip you see the higher frequency may not be due to your speakers but to your mic.

Based on the red Measured curves, it looks like your room really has little to no inherent Room Gain. That is, it doesn't look like ARC was fooled by any dips in the uncorrected speaker output. The low inherent Room Gain could easily be due to the open floor plan, or, if you have bass treatments on the walls they would also reduce it. You could raise Room Gain in Targets, but you should probably not try to go much above 2dB so as to keep the ARC response closer to the natural response of the room.

Now, you do have some dips in bass that might be harder for ARC to correct if you increase the Room Gain (since that means ARC needs to apply more boost to fill those dips up to the now higher Target). So try it and see what the charts look like. Adding Room Gain will give you fuller mid bass.

Another important thing to do is check the Phase setting for the Sub. If Phase is wrong for the Sub (compared to the main speakers) then you will be getting cancellation through the Crossover octave of frequencies where Sub and Mains are playing the same content. That's a classic cause of "anemic" bass symptoms because the octave below the Crossover frequencies is the cornerstone of the bass you hear. Phase is something you have to set Manually. ARC can't adjust for Phase because it doesn't hear the Sub playing at the same time as any Main speakers.

At the high end, your Measured data doesn't give me a lot of confidence that the mic is hearing things particularly well up there, so I'd be loathe to push Max EQ Frequency too far. You got that yourself when you tried 15KHz.

I think instead you should double check the pointing of your speakers. Treble output from speakers is much more directional than lower frequencies. If the speakers are not mounted at seated ear height then pay particular attention to their vertical pointing. Center and the Surrounds can point at mic position #1. Left Front and Right Front should not point directly at mic positions #1. The usual Rule of Thumb is to swing them only 1/3 of the angle from pointing straight at the back wall towards pointing at mic position #1.

Also keep in mind that for proper treble Measurement the ARC mic must be pointed straight up at each mic position, and it should be set with the mic tip at seated ear height (unless you have to adjust a bit to clear a seat back). Also keep the mic about 18 inches away from walls and if you have tall seat backs also movie it a foot closer to the screen to be away from them.

With any luck some corrections here will give you better looking Measured treble data, meaning you can push Max EQ Frequency higher without "correcting" bogus data up there.
--Bob

Anthem has stated that the actual levels are not critical and ARC uses them and resets them while processing

I can say that it sounds great to me, especially when compared to my earlier measurements. The first "real" test was District 9 - when they were being chased through the compound with the helicopters circling all around, the surround was amazing to me.

Do you mean at the low-end of the curve? It doesn't look (to me) that different than the other charts here. It looks to follow the Target curve pretty closely..I guess I am not understanding something.


Yes, I asked about this awhile back, when someone else was having the same issue. I did adjust the noise levels as per the thread instructions to 75db using my SPL meter prior to my measuring. I guess as thestewman says, I don't need to worry about it?


Not sure what to make of all of this. I will have to look at the sub's specs. I'm kind of limited in my placement options, my room is far from ideal...I'm set up in the living room of a 1970's-era townhouse.

Thanks very much for all the feedback, it is appreciated.

- Mark

Compare these two subs, yours and ehlarson. Notice how your subs corrected curve (Green Line) starts to fall in output after about 40hz and the other sub's output
is strong all the way to 20hz where it rises a bit.
Now that does not mean your sub will sound bad. Realistically there is not much output in those super low regions and it is not the area where the bass impact comes from
that most home theater owners are striving for to get the bass impact.

Some of the SVS subs have a way to tune for a particular frequency range by inserting a plug into a port. It may be worth doing to shift the sub response lower if the sub supports this.

Correct, that's the "dive" I was talking about.  Where you will miss it is not music etc but 5.1 on the .1 effects of movies etc.

Definitive answer on ARC/PBK mics.

"The Mics are different and the files are not compatible with one another. Run PBK first and then Run ARC".

Piero

TJG

Oh, ok, I finally realized as I was composing this that I should be reading the curve from right-to-left, I was getting confused because I was reading in the other direction...thanks (to you and Texas Steve) for the explanation.

I checked the specs for my sub, and it says specifically
Does that mean I can (or should) try the "flat" setting? I hear you saying maybe I should just let it go.

I do have neighbors on both sides, maybe for their peace I should leave it - I'm already afraid I'm rattling their dishes sometimes.

- Mark

P.S. Oh, and my sub doesn't have the plugable-port that ehlarson is referring to.

The easiest way to check placement is to put the sub in your listening position, then move around the room until you get the strongest, most articulate bass response... that position is where you want your sub to be.

Your SVS sub is fully protected by a steep roll off from 20hz and down .
But, What more could you demand from a single 10" Driver and a 300 watt amp ?
Edited by thestewman - 1/4/13 at 1:34pm

 

Mark:

 

Since the in-room response is 3-5Hz deeper, it'd imply the new in-room frequency response be from 17Hz - 150Hz  ±3dB even down to 15Hz depending on the room...I would definately try the flat setting IMO. Your sub frequency response is not atypical at all.

No bass treatments. Just a big ole' opening into another room. I do have plenty of sub output that I'm not using in the current configuration though.

When I originally set up the sub I used a Velodyne SMS-1 to set the phase. Perhaps it's time to dig out the cables for that again.

Speaker pointing is an interesting idea.

According to the measurements of my speakers that were done in Stereophile their off axis response is pretty good up to 10K or so. Because of that I'd really like to have my max EQ no lower than 10K. When I tried 5K my system sounded pretty dull.

Thanks Bob.

I posted this in the Oppo 105 forum also, but since it could be an Anthem issue, thought I should post here also:

I have a strange problem that cropped up tonight. I turned the system on so my girls could watch a bluray, and there was a CD in the tray that started playing automatically, through the XLRs to my AVM 50v. The problem, is that it was REALLY loud (I have the startup volume set to -40). I went into the menu on the AVM50 to check ANLG Input level, which I had previously set at -6db. It was still set to -6db, but I selected it anyway, and the clipping meter that shows up when you adjust input level was almost max'd out, I had the pink bar above the green on solid, with the red bar above the pink flashing on and off with peaks. I adjusted the input level on the AVM to -20 (max range) and it didn't move the meter much at all... it was still showing clipping on the meter on the loudest peaks. So, I adjust the output volume on the Oppo down to 80 (from 100) and I was comfortably in the green. When I exited out of everything, I switched back and forth between ANLG Dir and HDMI on the AVM 50, and the ANLG Dir was close to 12db lower in output than the HDMI. I went back into the ANLG Input level menu on the AVM 50 and the clipping meter was significantly lower than it was before over the same passage of music. So, I left the Oppo at -80, and adjusted the AVM 50 input level up to 0db, while still comfortably in the green on the clipping meter. (This setting is still about 3db softer than the same music over HDMI). Exit out and go back in, and the clipping meter shows clipping again. I'm stumped. Does anyone know how to properly set the levels? I'm sure the HDMI is not clipping, and I'm NOT sure the ANLG IS clipping, since the clipping meter in the AVM 50 seems to change every time I exit and re-enter. I had initially assumed I could set the levels the same between the ANLG and HDMI, but now not so sure. BTW, I never heard any audible clipping under any of these scenarios.

The other problem I'm having... in the Oppo setup menu, under speaker configuration, I can't get any output tones. I have all speakers set to large, and the distance set to 12ft because I'm using ARC in the AVM 50... does that turn the tones off since I'm not using the Oppo's speaker setup?

Other HDMI sources (DVR) have much lower input levels than the Oppo's HDMI... is there a way to control the output level of the HDMI out on the Oppo?

Well I bit the bullet and am sending my D2v in for the 3D upgrade this Tuesday, I have the older HDMI board and have had many problems since day one, I am hoping that the new board will eradicate my problems. I purchased a cheap Pioneer 3D receiver for 250.00 to fill in the gap while my D2v is being serviced and am very interested to see if my problems continue with it in the chain.

Do I need to re-run ARC or just recalculate with the "Flat" setting?

When I just do a recalculate, the Sub chart looks better. I left every other setting the same.





I still have a bit of a dip below 25Hz, but nothing like it was.

Thanks!

- Mark

Recalculate and upload, that's it.

Thanks all! I went over to my friend's house and confirmed what he was hearing. It reminded me of the same lack of impact that I heard with the Sub12 when I auditioned it in my own home. I ended up keeping my ancient Mirage bipolar 2x12" sub. The Paradigm isn't a bad sub, in fact very clean sounding, and his sub chart looks way better than mine but there seems to be something missing at times. We did check phase and levels using various test tones and my SPL meter, but adjusting the phase had no effect on broadband pink noise. It did unevenly raise the response on some discrete test tones at 40 and 80Hz.

Mike - turns out he has in fact been running the old MRX formware with the bug! So he updated to the latest and noticed volume levels changed. Everything, including the sub gets a bit softer now when ARC is turned on, where before ARC had very little effect... what a horrible bug to have! So if anything the bass is even leaner now. The boomy Nowlan Dark Knight movies are no longer boomy and sound just right to both of us. However the majority of other reference material (Transformers, Expendables, Inception) are seriously lacking bass impact. With ARC turned off we liked the sound of the sub a bit better on these movies.

A long time ago I noticed the ARC in the MRX is less powerful than our processors, so I had him reduce the upper correction limit to 1k (max is 5k) in order to let ARC concentrate on the bass. I think this was a bad idea because it resulted in lean bass and slightly harsh treble (most of his speakers have a small peak at 2k now uncorrected. I am going to suggest he store another ARC solution with maximal treble correction at the expense of bass correction in the Music mode. This should provide a warmer sound, and he can try both solutions on the fly, to suit the program material.

I also suggested getting a second sub placed elsewhere in the room to "fill in the gaps". Finally I wonder if 7 speakers with 5 drivers each is too much for the MRX500. A separate amp for the front speakers might be in his future.

I've tested my mrx500 with a 7.1 system and it had no problem in a 14x18x9 room. A Servo 15 was the sub and it sounded fantastic. ARC in the the MRX uses the same resources for the Sub as in the pre/pros.
John
Edited by jayray - 1/5/13 at 4:18pm

Why are you using the volume control on the Oppo at all? Why not set to fixed volume output into the Anthem and use the volume control on the Anthem??

Because of this: The pic below is with the Oppo's volume set to 100, connected to the Anthem via XLR and set up on the 2-CH Bal input in the setup menu. Even with input trim on the Anthem set to -20dB, the level meter shows maxed-out clipping at the inputs. What I don't know is if it's a glitch, or if it's really clipping at the inputs. Any help you can provide on what I'm doing wrong would be greatly appreciated!

As stated in the OPPO thread where you also posted this, that bar graph is not valid when using ANALOG-DIRECT. The fact that it is showing at all is a bug (minor) in the UI of the Anthem.

Use -6dB for the level adjustment in the D2v for the XLR inputs coming from the OPPO. You can then use Volume FIXED (or Variable 100) in the OPPO for its XLR output.

You can verify your levels with a calibration disc. Using Stereo audio mode in both cases, and ANALOG-DSP input for the Analog case the, XLR inputs should match the HDMI input.

(Using ANALOG-DIRECT the levels may differ since you have, in essence disabled ARC and bass steering. Whether the difference is enough to be noticeable depends on what ARC is doing in your room.)
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 1/5/13 at 6:45pm

Bob:

 

Why am i getting the pink bar(possible clipping) when i'm using Analog-DSP with my 105 XLR outs with the gain level set to -6dB in the Anthem menu?

 

I thought you said the Oppo XLR outs and Anthem 2CH XLR in's are compatible when levels are set to -6dB? Anthems D2v datasheet doesn't seem to give the maximum input voltage on  its XLR/RCA inputs. If anyone knows, please let me know and show me where that data is...

Thanks Bob, truly appreciate the help! I wasn't sure if this was an Oppo issue or an Anthem issue, hence posting the question in both forums. I got my Anthem just before Christmas, and the Oppo last week, so both are brand new to me (came from Pioneer Elite and Panasonic), so I appreciate the patience as I learn the new gear. I'm a quick study though!

Levels match perfectly between HDMI and 2-CH Analog with the settings you suggest.

Based on Bob's response, I would think you're clipping the DSP inputs on the D2v during conversion from Analog back to Digital for DSP processing. But, I'm obviously no expert!