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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1326

post #39751 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

Are you certain your sub is in-Phase with the rest of the system?

Where are you located? Maybe a member close to you can come over and see first-hand what's going on?

No, I could not tell you if my sub is in phase. I have tried to turn the knob in the back of the sub for phase, but it really does not do anything. That is why I am trying to find an AS Eq1.

I am in Baltimore, MD area.

Thanks.
post #39752 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

No, I could not tell you if my sub is in phase. I have tried to turn the knob in the back of the sub for phase, but it really does not do anything. That is why I am trying to find an AS Eq1.

I am in Baltimore, MD area.

Thanks.

Well, I'll be at BWI soon on a short layover, but that's not going to help you. I'm starting to think the culprit is one, or more, of the following:

1. Listening position
2. Sub Phase
3. General placement/room environment

Your sub is putting out plenty of bass, except in the null around 70hz. And, you should be getting enough bass from your S8's to be satisfactory. Do you get better bass with the sub off? If so, that could be an indication that the sub is out of phase.

Have you contacted your retailer/installer to have them come out for an evaluation?
post #39753 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

What is your setting for "bypass LFE Xover"?

No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post


Setting it to "no" sets the LFE X-over to whatever the sub X-over is set to. Set it to "yes" to send full LFE to the sub. I wouldn't do that for your Music setting, but should be fine for Movie.

Bypass LFE XOVER is one of the set of settings which is ignored/bypassed during ARC Measurement, and also while playing any Source which has ARC enabled (Room EQ ON).

ARC effectively ALWAYS does a (more sophisticated) version of Bypass LFE XOVER, regardless of this setting.
--Bob
post #39754 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post


Bypass LFE XOVER is one of the set of settings which is ignored/bypassed during ARC Measurement, and also while playing any Source which has ARC enabled (Room EQ ON).

ARC effectively ALWAYS does a (more sophisticated) version of Bypass LFE XOVER, regardless of this setting.
--Bob

Bob, the way I understand "Bypass LFE XOVER" is that regardless of whether or not ARC is engaged, this setting determines whether or not the sub receives LFE below the X-over point (set to "no") or full range LFE (set to "yes"). The manual makes no mention of this setting being ARC dependent. Is this correct?
post #39755 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post


Bypass LFE XOVER is one of the set of settings which is ignored/bypassed during ARC Measurement, and also while playing any Source which has ARC enabled (Room EQ ON).

ARC effectively ALWAYS does a (more sophisticated) version of Bypass LFE XOVER, regardless of this setting.
--Bob

Bob, the way I understand "Bypass LFE XOVER" is that regardless of whether or not ARC is engaged, this setting determines whether or not the sub receives LFE below the X-over point (set to "no") or full range LFE (set to "yes"). The manual makes no mention of this setting being ARC dependent. Is this correct?

As I stated, Bypass LFE XOVER is one of the set of settings which is ignored when ARC is active. ARC does a more sophisticated version of the same thing -- essentially LFE content is handle specially ALL THE TIME when ARC is active.

Other legacy EQ settings also ignored while ARC is in use include Center EQ, Room Resonance Filter, THX Ultra 2 Sub, and THX Boundary Gain Compensation. Again ARC supersedes all of these, as their function is otherwise handled by the ARC solution.

NOTE: If you attempt to compare ARC vs no-ARC by turning Room EQ ON/OFF for any given Source, you need to be aware that any settings left hanging around in those will become active again while Room EQ is OFF. This is one of the things that make such a comparison difficult. (The others being that the Volume Trims ARC Uploads are set with the expectation that any boosts/cuts implemented by the Room Correction parameters are ALSO active, and that Crossover frequencies Uploaded are calculated assuming the Room Correction parameters are active as well -- i.e., the "best" non-ARC choice for the Volume Trims and Crossover frequencies might possibly be different than what ARC has Uploaded.)
--Bob
post #39756 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

Also, it's curious to me that ARC set your Sub Cutoff frequency to 80hz for a Sub 25. I'm not sure of the proper procedure to do this, but you might try raising your Sub Cutoff frequency in the targets window to 120hz, to get more of the low-mid bass (the impact frequencies) back into your sub... LFE signals range from 120hz down...
I'm willing to bet this is a placement issue.
I know it's not always easy in a living space, but the correct procedure is to move the sub around using quick measure to find the sweet spot. Then remeasure the room and hopefully get ARC to raise the Sub target automatically, rather than forcing it yourself, in order to get more bass out of the sub and not rely on the mains so much.
ARC used to give me a sub cutoff at 85 Hz until I moved the sub out of the corner and it magically went up to 100.

HTH,
Stefan

PS - the crossover in the D2v says 60 but the ARC target is 80? Interesting...
post #39757 of 42717
^ It is "normal" for the Subwoofer Cutoff value in the ARC Targets window to differ from the Subwoofer Crossover value Uploaded by ARC into the Setup menu. They represent two different things.

You can not set the Subwoofer Crossover as an ARC Target. ARC picks the best Subwoofer Crossover to use based on the Cutoff/Crossover values in place for the other speakers and the actual output of the Subwoofer. (Cutoff and Crossover WILL always match for the other speakers in the current ARC software.)

In any event both the Subwoofer Cutoff (80Hz) in Targets and the Uploaded Subwoofer Crossover (60Hz) are evidence that ARC is not happy with the high bass it is seeing from that Subwoofer. ARC is trying to avoid using it. Keep in mind that the ARC chart is an unweighted average of the Sub's response over all the mic positions. That dip you are seeing is the result of the averaging. The dip might be even more extreme at some of the mic positions. Spending some quality time with Quick Measure at the different mic positions (even without moving the sub) would reveal that.

This is not a happy Sub.
--Bob
post #39758 of 42717
I agree, well said!
post #39759 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

As I stated, Bypass LFE XOVER is one of the set of settings which is ignored when ARC is active. ARC does a more sophisticated version of the same thing -- essentially LFE content is handle specially ALL THE TIME when ARC is active.

Other legacy EQ settings also ignored while ARC is in use include Center EQ, Room Resonance Filter, THX Ultra 2 Sub, and THX Boundary Gain Compensation. Again ARC supersedes all of these, as their function is otherwise handled by the ARC solution.

NOTE: If you attempt to compare ARC vs no-ARC by turning Room EQ ON/OFF for any given Source, you need to be aware that any settings left hanging around in those will become active again while Room EQ is OFF. This is one of the things that make such a comparison difficult.
--Bob
Just to clarify though, all legacy EQ settings are also ignored with Analog Direct, correct?
post #39760 of 42717
^ Yes. All of the audio processing, both ARC and the legacy EQ settings, happen in the digital domain. With ANALOG-DIRECT the Analog audio input is never re-digitized, so none of that processing is possible. It is all bypassed.
--Bob
post #39761 of 42717
I am using XLR outs from my D2v to connect to the amplifier. Can I connect the sub using the RCA out, and leave all other channels connected via XLRs?

Thanks.
post #39762 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

I am using XLR outs from my D2v to connect to the amplifier. Can I connect the sub using the RCA out, and leave all other channels connected via XLRs?

Thanks.

yes
post #39763 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

I am using XLR outs from my D2v to connect to the amplifier. Can I connect the sub using the RCA out, and leave all other channels connected via XLRs?

Thanks.

Yes. The XLR outputs are +6dB hotter than the RCA outputs, so expect that you will need to adjust the Sub's volume to keep things matched (unless you select -6dB attenuation for the XLR inputs at your power amp). That's a one-time, setup adjustment of course.
--Bob
post #39764 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

I am using XLR outs from my D2v to connect to the amplifier. Can I connect the sub using the RCA out, and leave all other channels connected via XLRs?

Thanks.
Why ?
That will not fix your problem. I am using the XLR outs and have no such problem.
Have you thought about this ? Paradigm PBK http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/subwoofer/paradigm/paradigm-perfect-bass-kit/pbk
This might be part of the answer. The PBK will change the SUB 25 to fit the room as much as possible.
There is a problem with your sub rolling off above 80 Hz. That will give you a system without any punch or life.
It is not the Sub 25 as it is a 3000 watt sub good from 35 Hz - 150 Hz with extension to 9hz
Possibly its something you have done in the setup or ARC.
Get the PBK kit or borrow one. The PBK is inexpensive and easy to use.
If I was home I would lend you mine, but I am away for 30 more days. Maybe another AVS member might step forward and loan you theirs.

I suggest you start by running the PBK and looking at what it displays. Then upload its settings
Reset everything in the speaker setup by resetting everything to default settings and then rerun ARC.
post #39765 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Why ?
That will not fix your problem. I am using the XLR outs and have no such problem.
Have you thought about this ? Paradigm PBK http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/subwoofer/paradigm/paradigm-perfect-bass-kit/pbk
This might be part of the answer. The PBK will change the SUB 25 to fit the room as much as possible.
There is a problem with your sub rolling off above 80 Hz. That will give you a system without any punch or life.
It is not the Sub 25 as it is a 3000 watt sub good from 35 Hz - 150 Hz with extension to 9hz
Possibly its something you have done in the setup or ARC.
Get the PBK kit or borrow one. The PBK is inexpensive and easy to use.
If I was home I would lend you mine, but I am away for 30 more days. Maybe another AVS member might step forward and loan you theirs.

I suggest you start by running the PBK and looking at what it displays. Then upload its settings
Reset everything in the speaker setup by resetting everything to default settings and then rerun ARC.

"thestewman":

Thank you for your attention; but this is a separate issue in a sense that I am trying to get a used AS EQ1 for the sub, and that only takes RCA inputs (I am not sure if I will ultimately get it yet).

Now you said PBK, I know PBK, and my understanding is that ARC has everything what PBK has and more, i.e., if you use ARC, you do not need to use PBK. Correct me if I am wrong, and at this point I am willing to try anything reasonable, and that is one of the reason for trying to get the AS EQ1. If PBK can fix it, I will buy it.

Thanks again.
post #39766 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

"thestewman":

Thank you for your attention; but this is a separate issue in a sense that I am trying to get a used AS EQ1 for the sub, and that only takes RCA inputs (I am not sure if I will ultimately get it yet).

Now you said PBK, I know PBK, and my understanding is that ARC has everything what PBK has and more, i.e., if you use ARC, you do not need to use PBK. Correct me if I am wrong, and at this point I am willing to try anything reasonable, and that is one of the reason for trying to get the AS EQ1. If PBK can fix it, I will buy it.

Thanks again.

I should have asked you about PBK sooner, just assumed you had it with the investment you made in your system.

PBK +ARC would definitely help more than just ARC alone... plus PBK is designed for your sub. PBK is low frequency specific with dedicated corrections/filters that are stored in your sub. It will significantly flatten your subs response prior to running ARC. You need to run PBK first, then run ARC after you've loaded the PBK corrections to the sub.

PBK will help ARC do a better job with the overall presentation. ARC is a more powerful correction process, but ARC does not necessarily eliminate the need for PBK.
post #39767 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

I should have asked you about PBK sooner, just assumed you had it with the investment you made in your system.

PBK +ARC would definitely help more than just ARC alone... plus PBK is designed for your sub. PBK is low frequency specific with dedicated corrections/filters that are stored in your sub. It will significantly flatten your subs response prior to running ARC. You need to run PBK first, then run ARC after you've loaded the PBK corrections to the sub.

PBK will help ARC do a better job with the overall presentation. ARC is a more powerful correction process, but ARC does not necessarily eliminate the need for PBK.

OK. I have been asking for so long and complaining about the sound, but no body ever said anything like that, not even Anthem Support (they know me on first name basis). I have even sent my D2v for warranty repair (they did not find anything wrong). I firmly believed in what I said; ARC has what PBK does, I am sure even Anthem support said that.

I can get PBK; now the question is, if I can get the AS EQ1, then should I still get PBK, or not get PBK, or not get AS EQ1 (I want best possible sound, without much compromise with decor, i.e. moving sub in front of the fire place).

Thanks.
post #39768 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

OK. I have been asking for so long and complaining about the sound, but no body ever said anything like that, not even Anthem Support (they know me on first name basis). I have even sent my D2v for warranty repair (they did not find anything wrong). I firmly believed in what I said; ARC has what PBK does, I am sure even Anthem support said that.

I can get PBK; now the question is, if I can get the AS EQ1, then should I still get PBK, or not get PBK, or not get AS EQ1 (I want best possible sound, without much compromise with decor, i.e. moving sub in front of the fire place).

Thanks.

If you have a serious null at your listening position then no amount of EQ will give a satisfactory solution. Have you tried moving the sub to see if that is in fact the root cause? I know you don't want to or can't move it permanently but until you rule out placement as the main culprit, it seems pointless to try more correction add-on's. Apologies if this has already been discussed. I know moving it has been suggested before but don't recall if you have actually tried it.
post #39769 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

OK. I have been asking for so long and complaining about the sound, but no body ever said anything like that, not even Anthem Support (they know me on first name basis). I have even sent my D2v for warranty repair (they did not find anything wrong). I firmly believed in what I said; ARC has what PBK does, I am sure even Anthem support said that.

I can get PBK; now the question is, if I can get the AS EQ1, then should I still get PBK, or not get PBK, or not get AS EQ1 (I want best possible sound, without much compromise with decor, i.e. moving sub in front of the fire place).

Thanks.

Sorry man, I just started watching this forum about a month ago when I got my AVM 50v. It kills me that you are struggling to get satisfactory sound with such high quality equipment.

ARC will do what PBK does, but look at it this way. Without PBK, ARC is trying to correct the worst-possible scenario for sub response. With PBK, you get the benefit of TWO corrections. PBK will flatten the response as much as it can, then ARC will take that response and massage it a bit more. Both systems will only correct so much. So starting from a better response, gives ARC a much better canvas to paint with.

I don't know much about AS EQ1, but PBK is designed for your sub, and is arguably one of the best bass EQ systems out there, plus it's cheap. Since Anthem tech support know you by name, I would start there and see if they have a sample kit they can send you to try.

Meanwhile, can you post some pics of your listening room so we can see your setup?
post #39770 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

Sorry man, I just started watching this forum about a month ago when I got my AVM 50v. It kills me that you are struggling to get satisfactory sound with such high quality equipment.

ARC will do what PBK does, but look at it this way. Without PBK, ARC is trying to correct the worst-possible scenario for sub response. With PBK, you get the benefit of TWO corrections. PBK will flatten the response as much as it can, then ARC will take that response and massage it a bit more. Both systems will only correct so much. So starting from a better response, gives ARC a much better canvas to paint with.

I don't know much about AS EQ1, but PBK is designed for your sub, and is arguably one of the best bass EQ systems out there, plus it's cheap. Since Anthem tech support know you by name, I would start there and see if they have a sample kit they can send you to try.

Meanwhile, can you post some pics of your listening room so we can see your setup?

Several people with problem sub curves have gotten good results with PBK and that's great for a problem but I'm in the camp that if you can do it with ARC only then that's the best route. I don't like to have to process the signal twice if it's not necessary.
post #39771 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike645 View Post

Several people with problem sub curves have gotten good results with PBK and that's great for a problem but I'm in the camp that if you can do it with ARC only then that's the best route. I don't like to have to process the signal twice if it's not necessary.

In most cases, I would agree that less processing is better - and used to be squarely in that camp with you. Modern EQ though, when properly applied as it is in ARC and PBK, should not degrade the signal to any noticeable extent, while providing a big improvement in frequency response and musical clarity. Layering EQ's, such as PBK and ARC, allows the full use of the processing power in both programs culminating in a better end result in most cases.
post #39772 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

"thestewman":

Thank you for your attention; but this is a separate issue in a sense that I am trying to get a used AS EQ1 for the sub, and that only takes RCA inputs (I am not sure if I will ultimately get it yet).

Now you said PBK, I know PBK, and my understanding is that ARC has everything what PBK has and more, i.e., if you use ARC, you do not need to use PBK. Correct me if I am wrong, and at this point I am willing to try anything reasonable, and that is one of the reason for trying to get the AS EQ1. If PBK can fix it, I will buy it.

Thanks again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

OK. I have been asking for so long and complaining about the sound, but no body ever said anything like that, not even Anthem Support (they know me on first name basis). I have even sent my D2v for warranty repair (they did not find anything wrong). I firmly believed in what I said; ARC has what PBK does, I am sure even Anthem support said that.

I can get PBK; now the question is, if I can get the AS EQ1, then should I still get PBK, or not get PBK, or not get AS EQ1 (I want best possible sound, without much compromise with decor, i.e. moving sub in front of the fire place).

Thanks.

There have been numerous suggestions on how to fix your problem. From all it looks like apparently there is nothing wrong with your gear, The D2 works correctly, the speakers are all working correctly.
When you look at the graphs presented by ARC the only thing that looks bad is the sub response.
Compare these two graphs from subs made by Paradigm. Yours is the left and the the right hand graph is my sub's PBK result in an average room opening in the rear into another room and no bass traps etc.
And like you because of the sub's size and weight it is in the right corner but positioned to best eliminate the dips and peaks at 40-60hz..
Now look at My ARC graph which is the lower graph after PBK

If you can make your sub graph, and you have the sub to do it, replicate mine, I think your system will come alive.
You need output from 80-120Hz

Try this first and then listen to your system to see if it improves.
Go to the ARC targets and raise the sub cutoff to 120 in both Music and Movie windows
Recalculate and upload the ARC results to the D2. Then listen to the system



Edited by thestewman - 1/18/13 at 3:55am
post #39773 of 42717
As I said earlier, EQ will not fix the huge dip centered at 70Hz. If it's not related to incorrect measurement issues, then he has a null at the listening area.
post #39774 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by jo5507 View Post

As I said earlier, EQ will not fix the huge dip centered at 70Hz. If it's not related to incorrect measurement issues, then he has a null at the listening area.

It won't fix it, but the combo of PBK and ARC will certainly help.
post #39775 of 42717
^ It's hard to tell. A Cancellation Null is a tricky thing -- assuming that's what this is (we can't really tell without seeing what happens if the sub is moved around).

Consider a bucket with the bottom all rusted out. The faster you pour water into it, the more simply drops out the bottom. To fill the bucket you have to overwhelm that hole with so much water flow that it can't drop out the bottom fast enough. Similarly you can pump a lot of energy into a Sub suffering a Cancellation Null only to have it simply get cancelled out! At some point you reach the limit of what the Sub's amp and cone motor can tolerate. That's why ARC doesn't try to use more than +6dB boost to fill a dip. Adding PBK will have TWO systems, each with a +6dB protection limit for boosts, but both still just sending energy to the *SAME* Sub amp and cone motor.

This Sub measures well on either side of the dip, and thus much of the dip could likely be filled by ARC alone with a combination of lowering Room Gain and manually shifting the Subwoofer's ARC Cutoff Target frequency to the high frequency side of that dip (thus forcing ARC to try to deal with the dip instead of avoiding it).

Nevertheless, the presence of the dip in this key frequency range for bass performance indicates the Sub is not coupling well to the room in its current position and given the current ability of the room setup to attenuated bass reflections.

Quick Measure results with the Sub moved around would tell if this really is a coupling problem (likely) or if the Sub's electronics or driver are just broken through that frequency range (unlikely).

It's also not clear to me that the perceived audio problem in the room is truly due to the Sub response. The Sub issue stands out, and needs to be corrected, but it may be just one factor in the perception of poor audio in that room.
--Bob
post #39776 of 42717
Bob

Did you notice in the charts I just posted above the similarity in the curves before any EQ with the peaks and dips ?

Since both his sub on the left chart and mine on the right are made by Paradigm maybe it is characteristic of their designs
Edited by thestewman - 1/18/13 at 5:49am
post #39777 of 42717
By the way, nice sub graph Stew.
post #39778 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

I should have asked you about PBK sooner, just assumed you had it with the investment you made in your system.

PBK +ARC would definitely help more than just ARC alone... plus PBK is designed for your sub. PBK is low frequency specific with dedicated corrections/filters that are stored in your sub. It will significantly flatten your subs response prior to running ARC. You need to run PBK first, then run ARC after you've loaded the PBK corrections to the sub.

PBK will help ARC do a better job with the overall presentation. ARC is a more powerful correction process, but ARC does not necessarily eliminate the need for PBK.

OK. I have been asking for so long and complaining about the sound, but no body ever said anything like that, not even Anthem Support (they know me on first name basis). I have even sent my D2v for warranty repair (they did not find anything wrong). I firmly believed in what I said; ARC has what PBK does, I am sure even Anthem support said that.

I can get PBK; now the question is, if I can get the AS EQ1, then should I still get PBK, or not get PBK, or not get AS EQ1 (I want best possible sound, without much compromise with decor, i.e. moving sub in front of the fire place).

Thanks.

 

AS-EQ1 = PBK kit functionality + Phase Correction of up to 2 subs. The phase correction goes includes the mains/subs crossover region, which is critical.

post #39779 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Bob

Did you notice in the charts I just posted above the similarity in the curves before any EQ with the peaks and dips ?

Since both his sub on the left chart and mine on the right are made by Paradigm maybe it is characteristic of their designs

I doubt it. Standing wave cancellation nulls in that frequency range simply require similar room geometry, and a Sub placement that couples in to that.
--Bob
post #39780 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike645 View Post

Several people with problem sub curves have gotten good results with PBK and that's great for a problem but I'm in the camp that if you can do it with ARC only then that's the best route. I don't like to have to process the signal twice if it's not necessary.

In most cases, I would agree that less processing is better - and used to be squarely in that camp with you. Modern EQ though, when properly applied as it is in ARC and PBK, should not degrade the signal to any noticeable extent, while providing a big improvement in frequency response and musical clarity. Layering EQ's, such as PBK and ARC, allows the full use of the processing power in both programs culminating in a better end result in most cases.

 

Once the PBK  handles the null at 70Hz or so, then ARC will see a smooth sub response from 20Hz to 300Hz and then raise the sub cutoffs to the 120Hz max.

 

It will also change the cutoffs of the mains and surrounds in light of the extended load the sub is now handling.

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