Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1328

^ Your current set of problems basically come down to things not working well with 1080p output but working OK with 720p output.

That's a classic description of an HDMI cabling problem. The most likely problem is the HDMI cable from the D2 to your TV, but the cable from the FIOS to the D2 could also be the culprit. You need to make sure you are using "high speed" HDMI cables, labeled as "for 1080p". HDMI is only friction fit and it only takes a small shift of plug in socket to screw things up, so make sure your HDMI plugs are fully inserted STRAIGHT into the sockets with nothing (e.g., cable weight) tugging them in any direction.

By the way, copy protected standard definition DVDs (i.e., pretty much everything you might buy commercially) are limited to 480p output on Component video. That's likely why your DVD player is sending 480p over Component cabling to the D2.

Your problem with getting the aspect ratio correct is a common one. There are three places to get this screwed up: What the TV itself does with the input, what the D2 does as the video goes through, and what the FIOS generates as the output. Sometimes there's nothing for it but to experiment a bit until you learn what the different choices do in each device.

In the first post of this thread you'll find a collection of post links to some tutorial posts in the thread. There are several of them which try to explain what's going on with Cropping and Scaling.

Typically for a Set Top Box like the FIOS you will want to set the D2 to use Auto Crop with Letter/Pillar Box Scaling.
--Bob

Bob, thanks. A few more tidbits. I discovered that the recently -updated FIOS box was not in fact sending 1080i for HDMI (which made sense as I was component wired before). So that's now sending 1080i.

The DVD player is still confusing me. I see 720/480p on the OSD as an INPUT, and an output from the D2 on the same info screen of 1080p, which is what I had it set to do.

BUT - from both the Panny Blu-ray and the FIOS box (using any hdmi cable), I still get a blue flash on the screen, then it goes dead - no image at all. Cannot see the OSD screen at that point as it doesn't think there's a video input to the D2. This also hoses all other video, like all video is then shut down as an input to the D2 until I re-start the D2. Sometimes I get the Muted HDMI Video Need HDCP Monitor.

Question: if the OSD is showing 1080i OUTPUT using the DVD player, doesn't that mean that the HDMI cable is OK (image is still an upscaled 720/480p, so not super crisp), but isn't the D2 thinking it is sending out 1080p or i?

In theory, if that's true, and I can swap HDMI cables from the D2 to the TV with the same results, then those HDMI cables might be OK? I could try one of those on the input side again.

I do not see any other adjustments to make on the FIOS box.

Blu-ray player - I turned off the audio-out over HDMI and went with an optical link for audio. But the video behaves the same way as the FIOS box.

One other quick thing. I tried running component from the FIOS to the D2, and from the D2 to the TV. Still no 1080 image out of the D2 for this FIOS box. Yet, if I connect it directly to the TV, I get 1080i...

Any other adjustments to look for?

Thanks so much. We're making some progress with your assistance.
Edited by bigdaddy999 - 1/20/13 at 3:02pm

One question I had.

Generally when I run ARC measurement I do level calibration of LF speaker to to see 75dB, but generally results show level below 75dB, it is generally in the range of 70dB. Whereas I have seen well above 75dB for many people here. Am I doing something wrong. I would like to know before my next ruin.

Thanks.

That won't affect your measurements unless you have a lot of ambient noise. What are you using the calibrate the LF to 75dB?

Test tone from D2v, it allows you to do that.

There is a known glitch that the graphs for some will show less volume than what you set but I have been told not to worry about it. My graphs also show 70db even though my trusty Radio Shack SPL Meter has set the volume to 75db.

Many, many thanks to all of you for your responses. I could only manage to save two sets of comments, but read all of them and I'm very appreciative. At the top, several remaining questions:

(1) Other pre-pro processors to consider? Is there any other manufacturer I should look at for a surround sound processor pre-pro? $10,000 is the upper limit of my budget, and would prefer to spend less than that.

I suspect many of the high end are considerably more than that. Krell is coming out with a $6500 processor at the end of February, but the manual is not yet available and the info on the web site are limited. Many of the high end units have abandoned analog inputs and outs, which is a mistake as we are still in a transitional period. I have an analog DVD Recorder that I use frequently, and there are no HDMI or digital equivalent in the US due to copyright restrictions. Bryston is a great example of such a a mornoic design. They provide ins and outs for audio but none for video! The have a section on the back marked for tape rec and video rec -- but no video analog connectors! The fact that Anthem provides everything -- even S-Video, is a real advantage, until we have blu-ray recorders in the US market -- and who knows when that will happen. If ever.

(On the Anthem, can you send a signal to a DVD Recorder from a Tivo, for example, while watching and listening to a different video source? The manual implies you can do so, and in fact from two recorders while watching a different source, but it is not crystal clear.)

I'm already looking at the top units from Marantz, Onkyo and Denon. Do you think that any of those are the equal of Anthem? They rely on Audyssey, see my next question. I'm assuming they are not of the same video or audio quality of the 50v, let alone the D2v, and do not have the same level of set-up versatility.

(2) Audyssey versus ARC -- which is better? Peter from Denmark commented on ARC vs Audyssey, and he appears to be saying that Audyssey is more heavy-handed, and is a one shot, take it or leave it correction? And that ARC is more user adjustable? I considered Audyssey since it accommodates two subs, which I have, but I think my Velodyne SMS units address that anyway. So how does ARC compare to the latest and greatest from Audyssey?

The MC12 is a very old unit by today's standards. I'm having increasing numbers of problems, and they invariably happen when I have a large group of guests over to watch a movie. I assume these are handshake problems related to the fact that the MC12 uses, I believe, HDMI 1.1. With Oppo blu ray and either my Panasonic display or a JVC projector, it will fail to play audio when there is video present, or vice versa. Or it is a black screen. Or it defaults to L7 Music instead of Film, so no center speaker. The MC12 can't pass a 3D video signal. On top of that, the company appears to be dead, with Harman turning their emphasis to other products. Lexicon has not provided new firmware for almost 4 years. Many owners are beginning to have mechanical issues, but so far that hasn't happened to me. But it may be inevitable given its age.

As for the "ancient" Anthem user interface, the MC12 is pretty crude as well, but it does have a remarkable level of flexibility. Few new units can match it, especially since it is now about 8 years old since the last major upgrade. Has anyone directly compared the Anthem 50v and D2v to the MC12HD in that regard, specifically in terms of the number of parameters that can be adjusted for each input, and the number of parameters that can be adjusted for the surround formats?

I will miss the L7 surround, which does a great job. I'm told that PLII is as good, but have never critically compared, just defaulting to L7. Before I make the switch, I will do that comparison just to be sure I won't miss L7!

The Anthem music surround makes a point of saying that they do not use the center speaker. That is a mistake. L7 music allows you to adjust how much goes to the center, or none at all. L7 Music does a great job of pulling vocals out of music and putting it in the center, for example, with a two track LP of Sinatra. Anthem should follow the lead of Lexicon in that regard, but again, maybe PLII is as good.

I agree that the only way to compare the two units is through intensive listening, and preferably having both units at home. Such a comparison is thus impractical, and listening for an hour at a store just doesn't do it. That is why I posted here and asked for your judgement. Since I listen to analog LPs, the better analog section of the D2v would be a real advantage. And maybe for SACDs, since my Sony turns out an analog signal. (No, I just realized that Anthem doesn't provide analog inputs for SACD, so I will use my Oppo to turn out PCM.)

Do you think the 24/192 up sampling and premium ADCs and DACs make any difference for digital conversion, whether for CDs, SACDs, or blu-ray films? Did anyone report hearing a difference on digital, since the main difference between the two units, as you said, is in the analog section?

I prefer the silver face plate, and thing it is dumb and illogical to offer that option on the less expensive unit, and not on the flagship model!

^ You misunderstand. The audio OUTPUT of the Anthem is ALSO Analog. Thus the improved Analog design/components in the D2v definitely apply to playing digital sources as well as analog sources.

And yes, the D2v *DOES* have multi-channel Analog input if you want to use that from an SACD player.

If you want to adjust sound steering to the Center speaker, don't use the Anthem Logic Music surround mode. Use PLIIx-Music instead which allows for such adjustments.
--Bob

Thanks for the correction on analog input from an SACD player! I've been studying the manual, but missed that! The Anthem units are really well equipped. The best I have seen of high end pre-pros. Most higher end pre-pros leave large sections of their rear panel empty, and neglect to turn out really versatile units.

I understand that the audio output is analog. It must be analog, to connect to power amps. So everything is converted to analog prior to leaving the D2v. However, I had not considered that the analog section would therefore be beneficial for all sources, whether they are originally digital or analog, for the final analog conversion from the D2v. (At least I think that is your point, but if I have misstated it, please correct me.) I guess I assumed that the digital section did the conversion to analog prior to the outputs for power amps, but your point is that the superior analog section plays a role there as well. Have I got that right?

However, the other advertised difference between the 50v and the D2v is that the D2v is that the D2v has "superior" 24/192 upsampling on all channels with any input, and premium ADCs and DACs. I presume that would apply on any digital conversion, and the only place it would not apply is when playing an analog source on bypass. I have to be honest and admit that I have never mastered the nuances of digital technology, so while I can quote from the manual above, I don't really know, in layman's terms, what the advantage is of 24/192 upsampling and premium ADCs and DACs. Aside from what it means, what is the practical and real world benefit?

Did those who compared the two units report that the D2v sounded better on all digital sources, and virtually all digital conversions, compared to the 50v? If so, how did it sound better?

Many thanks again for the excellent responses and help.

And apologies for asking in an Anthem forum about whether any of you recommend any other pre-pros, but I figured it can't hurt to ask. The owners of Anthem are probably always checking out the competition, and can offer opinions as to anything that might compete, or explain why it doesn't.

Sorry to hear you are having trouble with the Lexicon. You will get the impression of much lower build quality with most of the other brands you mentioned. Logic7 has a very expansive and lush sound. The Anthems are definitely more neutral and crisp, and some users with planar speakers report that ARC further collapses the soundstage.

I was going to say Bryston SP-3 is probably more of an audio purist design, but you seem to be interested in video processing and room EQ. The Anthem has good video processing which handles S-video and component, but not composite. You could also get a dedicated video processor if you went for an audio-only processor. I ended up going this way and bypass the Anthem video processor now for my HDMI sources (still use it for the occasional S-video).

If you have a Sony SACD player with HDMI definitely get the D2v. There is a bug in the 50v that produces a hissing noise with 176k/16-bit PCM sources (this is how Sony decimates DSD; Oppo uses 96k/24-bit). By the way, when you turn on ARC it down samples 176k and 192k inputs to 96k. Are you sure you need room correction on top of your subs' EQ?

As a Logic7 guy there is another little catch you should be aware of. While PLIIx can expand sources with 5.1 channels or less to 7.1 channel, Anthem does not allow engaging it with a 6.1 channel source.
Edited by AVfile - 1/21/13 at 8:35am

Is this statement true for both the AVM50v and the D2V?

I have a few 24/192 tracks that I play and they do sound good but I also have ARC turned on so I may be downsampling the bitstream...???

I think so, as Nick from Anthem said it was an ARC limitation, not a chipset limitation. Just press the status button while playing it and see what it says for the input rate and the output rate.... and report back!

I would like a little information how people configure there D2v for video. I have an old Toshiba 81hx57 which does 480i, 480p, andf1080i which currently through the d2v I have it upscale it to 1080i on it's output. Picture still looks great after all these years. I just purchased an JVC RS56. The projector does every current format. So the D2v has one output going to the projector and one to the 81hx57. Is it a good idea is to have say DVD1 use video config 1, and DVD video config 2 and have it set for 1080p 24 and DVD3 use video config 3 and output 1080p60 and then switch between them?

That's how I do it - I use one setting for watching DVD material and another for Blu Ray material. It takes seconds to set it up in the menus.

Thanks very much for the great information!

(1) I wasn't aware that the Sony conversion of DSD "decimates" the sound, and have never critically compared the analog ouput from the Sony, that is then digitally converted when received by the pre-pro anyway -- Versus -- the Oppo output via PCM of SACD. (I guess I could also use the analog outs on the Oppo.) Which do you think sounds better for SACD -- the Sony analog output or the Oppo PCM or analog output? Maybe I should just stop using the Sony with its analog outs and just use the Oppo. I assumed the Sony analog output is better since SACD is the Sony developed format.

(2) 90% of my use of the pre-pro is the same as all of you -- to listen to music either in analog bypass (LPs) or in surround sound (LPs, CD, SACD) -- as well as watch 5.1/7.1 TV and films in surround. However, I do use a DVD recorder a fair amount, and it would just be nice to have a pre-pro that can accomodate that. I talked to tech support at Anthem today, and while it requires jumping through some hoops, the D2v can do so. I never did get a clear answer as to whether. using S Video, I could send an audio (analog or digital) signal and S-Video signal to the DVD recorder, while watching an listening to a different source simultaneously. Has anyone tried that?

(3) For all of the reasons discussed here, keeping the Lexicon for as long as I can is an option. Some Lex owners have done just that, but many more dropped the MC12HD years ago. Those who kept it have been hoping that Harmon/Lexicon would release a replacement to the MC12HD. For the last three years, Lexicon said they would do so. Now it is clear that a replacement is not forthcoming for at least two more years. I am skeptical that we will ever see another high end Lexicon pre-pro, and simply don't trust the vague anecdotal and second hand reports from the company. Lexicon has not released a firmware upgrade for four years, and failed to do so in the last year when problems were reported directly to the company. This debacle is summarized in a very long posting that can be found at the bottom of this page (the guy definitely is not a fan of Lexicon, but his chronological summary is accurate) --

http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1870&PN=16

Many MC12s have already had mechanical problems. I assume I haven't because I installed a fan to blow over the unit for cooling, and it has been cooled in that fashion since the beginning. That may have helped to lengthen the life. Anyway, to the degree I can sell it on ebay for Craigs List for anything at all, it is best to do it now, while Lexicon still sells the units on their web site.

It is remarkable that after all these years, the MC12 still does things that no one has ever matched. The demise of Lexicon is therefore all the more unfortunate. Nonetheless, as I discussed in an earlier post, my Lexicon uses HDMI 1.1 and already has problems synching up blu-ray audio/video, and I might as well sell it now while it has some value.

Many thanks to all of you for your advice and information!

P.S. -- the silver face plate is no longer an option on the 50v, even though the Anthem literature still shows it that way.
Edited by Emosewa09 - 1/21/13 at 4:11pm

Perhaps you are thinking of "decimation" as in destroying the audio. In this context, it is just the technical name for the process of converting the 1-bit delta-sigma DSD signal to a PCM signal. It is not a bad thing.

The Oppo player uses the same process to convert SACDs to 88.1/24 PCM.

You are correct. The Merriam-Webster definition of "decimate" is to "reduce drastically especially in number or to cause great destruction or harm to"

Now that I understand that the word is used here quite differently, the point is that both the Sony and Oppo do the same thing, only differently. But the 50v favors the Oppo method rather than the Sony method due to the bug.

Thanks for clarifying!

after i have run some more ARC meassure and uploaded them, i can tell that the sub/humm issue has nothing to do with the firmware. There is somthing in ARC that courses the problem. last night i uploaded two setting - one with room gain 3 (x-over 105hz) and one with roomgain 1(x-over 95hz . the one with roomgain 1 have the "noise" issue - any ideas?

Both the 50v and D2v have an in put smapling rate(on the analogs) of 24b/96kHz. The D2v then upsamples it to 24b/192k before sending the audio to its output dacs. In your case, if you have 24b/192 digital tracks, the D2v will simply process that signal via ARC at that sampling rate and output at the same rate of 24/192. Based on a recent review of the 50v and explaining how ARC works...

 

..... the AVM 50v 3D looked to be a high-quality jack of all trades, and I greatly anticipated exploring two of its greatest attributes: ARC, and Anthem’s implementation of the Sigma Designs VXP video processor. If you’ve heard of Anthem, you’ve probably heard of ARC, which is widely considered one of the top room-correction softwares in the industry. Used to its full potential, ARC can measure up to seven channels, plus a subwoofer, at bit rates as high as 192kHz, for up to ten independent listening positions. The measurements are taken using the supplied software, a calibration microphone of very high quality, and a mike stand and cable, and can take up to an hour to complete, depending on how many speakers you have. With all the data recorded and crunched, ARC then applies corrections for crossover frequency, room gain, time alignment, as well as correcting for both room modes and anti-modes for each channel measured.

 

ARC can process signals of up to 192k for digital sources on the D2v and only 96k for analog signals for both 50v/D2v.

 

The soundstaging collapse is not just experienced with planar speakers but dipoles in general where the speaker emits a front incident sound wave and a delayed back reflected sound wave to produce a deeper soundstage. I have MartinLogan electrostatics(Spires) and find that in Stereo, the sound collapses into the middle leaving not much separation between channels, so that's why i'm forced to use analog-direct for 2CH playback.I perform the distance management in my Oppo 105 player. Truly unfortunate, but this is the way it is.

Edited by dmusoke - 1/22/13 at 12:43am

This is of concern to me, as my front speakers are Magenpan 20.1 and the center is the combined CCR on the CC speaker stand and bass panel. My sides are also Magnepan. Only in the rear do I have traditional speakers.

You reference this problem in stereo.

(1) How does ARC perform with dipoles in 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound, using any of the various surround programs for music or film?

(2) How does ARC perform with dipoles when playing a two channel stereo source, like older 2 channel jazz, but playing that using one of the surround modes?

(3) I've asked several times, but no one has responded in any detail on the question of Audyssey versus ARC. Does the latest and greatest version of Audyssey also suffer from this problem with dipoles?

(4) Does anyone have any opinion as to how Audyssey performs compared to ARC? Peter from Denmark appeared to say that Audyssey is more heavy handed and not as flexible. But does it have these problems with dipoles?

P.S. Apparently some Magnepan centers don't work well with ARC. For some centers, including the CCR, the bottom of the range for the cut-off on the cross-over needs to be 200 hz. But the highest cut-off for ARC is 160. 160 is then too high for a sub but too low for the center. Magnepan apparently doesn't want anything lower than 200. But I shouldn't have that problem because I also bought the CC stand for the CCR, and the CC is a bass panel that goes from 50 to 200, and the CCR then picks up at 200. As Maganepan says "An internal crossover has a high pass filter for the Magneplanar center channel speaker. When the CC stand is coupled with a Magneplanar center channel speaker, the combination creates a full-range Magneplanar in the middle for home theater or multi-channel music." So the combination would have a bass cut-off of around 50.

What Sony and Oppo are we talking about? There is a nasty SCD-XA5400ES vs. BDP-95 thread in the dedicated CD players/transports forum if you really want to get into that. I would just forget about the analog side and go HDMI into the D2v, that way the signal is kept digital for any EQ and other prossessing until final output to the amp. If you decide to go analog direct 2-channel for some of your music, then there would be a slight preference for a preamp with balanced inputs (I don't think any of the Japanese brands have this; the Bryston should) assuming you have one of the above players with true balanced output - but that would be icing on the cake.

It's good that you have the full range center speaker, because you certainly don't want 150-200 Hz material getting to the sub, unless you enjoy hearing male voices coming from your sub!

I don't think any Anthem owners here will ever say Audyssey is better. ARC is a much more sophisticated system with powerful spectral analysis software that needs a PC to calculate a solution. Having said that you might not need it, especially if you're going to use analog direct a lot. Is there a problem in the room you are hoping to fix?
Edited by AVfile - 1/22/13 at 10:17am

You asked twice and didn't get any more responses - which is what happened to me 2 years ago when I was ready to buy. I haven't seen any such comparison reports and I've read every post here since.

You're correct. Oh well, I tried. Based on the negative report about ARC with dipoles, I am starting to look at other options. I don't know how Audyssey or the Krell system works, and it might not be as good for direct speakers, but it might be better with dipoles.

I have dipoles and ARC works fine.

Enjoy your Audyssey.

All I said is that I am LOOKING at other options. No decision made yet.

What dipoles are you using, and I assume your experience with 2 channel is that it is OK?

So, given the comment about Audyssey, have you directly compared Audyssey and ARC and how would you describe the difference?

Thanks very much for your help!

Speakers: Monitor Audio PL100 bookshelf speakers which have a ribbon tweeter and a 6.5" bass / mid-range driver. The dispersion characteristics of these driver types are very different and can cause some funkiness, mostly around the crossover point, and there's also occassional 'honkiness' or 'sizzle' with some higher frequencies.

I initially had an Anthem AV50v paired with these speakers and before running ARC I heard some sort of artifact in pretty much every song; something that broke the moment and made me wonder 'what the hell was that?' I was disappointed. Side note: I wasn't able to audition the PL100s. Instead I heard the PL300 floorstanding speakers and I didn't detect any artifacts like those presented by my PL100s - not sure if this was due to the complement of drivers, the equipment driving them, and / or the auditioned material...

I then ran ARC. Wow. The speakers sounded great and although I occassionally still heard artifacts, it happened a lot less often (mainly just the higher frequencies). All the other speakers sounded great, the system sounded great, and I didn't need to touch a thing or make any other adjustments.

Fast-forward a couple of months and construction on a dedicated home theater began. The Anthem was pegged for that system and replaced in the existing system by a Marantz AV-7005 with Audyssey MultEQ XT. Before running Audyssey I experienced the same pre-ARC artifacts with the speakers. After running Audyssey, the artifacts were again greatly reduced but not eliminated and those that remained seemed a little worse than ARC. The big difference was the rest of the system. I'm still trying to get the trim levels dialed in as the surrounds and subwoofer were set waaaay too high. It set the highest level of any channel (left front) to -4 and I've manually set the surround speakers to the lowest they'll go and I still think they're too prominient. I've also made a couple adjustments to the sub level as well. (I really need to dedicate some time to taking measurements and getting things dialed in once and for all). Again, this wasn't an issue with ARC - everything seemed to just blend perfectly and the same is true in the new HT (Dynaudio Confidence speakers).

I ONLY USE 7 Channels

Thanks dmusoke!

I knew I read that somewhere and it put my faith back onto the D2V. It's been working perfectly and I have been using 24/192k flac files from a netbook through a usb-to-spdif converter that accepts and outputs 24/192 files so that is covered. Best sound that I have gotten from my system and I do use Martin Logan electrostats with no hint of soundstage collapse. Quite the contrary with ARC active, 2ch audio sounds almost as enveloping as 5.1.

I have dipoles (Linkwitz Orions) and I have recently been doing shootouts with dipole panel speakers (Maggie and Apogee). I have an AVM40 with ARC and previously used various Audysseu equipped units, although I haven't tried XT32.

Firstly, I've never noticed a soundstage collapse with ARC and my dipoles. I have a very large, quite lively room and this has never been an issue.

I used to use Anthem Music a lot, but it does something funny in the bass, adding some kind of boost. This is easily observable when running pink noise from an external source. DPL2 Music does it to a lesser extent and DTS Neo even less. I used to own a Lexicon DC2 and would overall say I prefer Logic 7.

Usually I listen in straight stereo, but I will occasionally use the surround modes for more expansive music. I wish my Anthem had a direct programmable music mode button on the remote, but it doesn't.

When I had an Audyssey XT equipped prepro, I could never get a good result with my dipoles. Aside from Audyssey (IMHO) using a curve that results in too much brightness, there was a consistent and measurable issue around 100Hz. I ended up switching to a Denon unit which allowed you to just use Audyssey for the sub and the surrounds.

ARC, on the other hand, has shown no such problems. I like the ability to use it over restricted frequencies and to have separate settings for music and movies. I'm less sure about some of its bass management decisions. They are certainly not textbook.

But I leave ARC on for music and movies, whereas I turned Audyssey off.