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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1334

post #39991 of 42717
Hi,
Thanks everyone for the comments re. my ARC Graphs. I will post the Targets sometime this week, but I kept the default ARC settings.

With regards to the Sub - I did turn the Frequency Knob at the back up to 180 Hz and I am running the cable from the Sub 1 output at the back of the AVM 50v. The phase is set to 0 at this stage. The sub is however currently positioned next to the wall, approx halfway between the 2 corners. I will take the advice and move it into the corner and use the ARC Quick Measure tool - still need to get familiar with it all. The room is however rather large, I would guess approximately 7m x 9m, so Bob you might be right that I need another / better sub.

Thanks again for the feedback.
post #39992 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiolic View Post

Hi,
Thanks everyone for the comments re. my ARC Graphs. I will post the Targets sometime this week, but I kept the default ARC settings.

With regards to the Sub - I did turn the Frequency Knob at the back up to 180 Hz and I am running the cable from the Sub 1 output at the back of the AVM 50v. The phase is set to 0 at this stage. The sub is however currently positioned next to the wall, approx halfway between the 2 corners. I will take the advice and move it into the corner and use the ARC Quick Measure tool - still need to get familiar with it all. The room is however rather large, I would guess approximately 7m x 9m, so Bob you might be right that I need another / better sub.

Thanks again for the feedback.


With a small sub as you have you could actually start by placing the sub at your listening position and crawling around the room listening for the best response. When you find the strongest bass move the sub to that location as your starting point to run Quick Measure.
When you start to use Quick Measure start by moving the sub a few inches at a time.
post #39993 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiolic View Post

Hi,
Thanks everyone for the comments re. my ARC Graphs. I will post the Targets sometime this week, but I kept the default ARC settings.

What do you mean the default ARC settings ?
post #39994 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiolic View Post

Hi,
Thanks everyone for the comments re. my ARC Graphs. I will post the Targets sometime this week, but I kept the default ARC settings.

With regards to the Sub - I did turn the Frequency Knob at the back up to 180 Hz and I am running the cable from the Sub 1 output at the back of the AVM 50v. The phase is set to 0 at this stage. The sub is however currently positioned next to the wall, approx halfway between the 2 corners. I will take the advice and move it into the corner and use the ARC Quick Measure tool - still need to get familiar with it all. The room is however rather large, I would guess approximately 7m x 9m, so Bob you might be right that I need another / better sub.

Thanks again for the feedback.


With a small sub as you have you could actually start by placing the sub at your listening position and crawling around the room listening for the best response. When you find the strongest bass move the sub to that location as your starting point to run Quick Measure.
When you start to use Quick Measure start by moving the sub a few inches at a time.

 

Also, your sub has a single 10" woofer with a rated 34 - 150Hz bandwidth so it will be quite a feat if you can achieve a response down to 25Hz even by placing by the wall on a single sub. A dual sub configuration or a lower-end capable sub(s) is needed.

post #39995 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiolic View Post

Hi,
Thanks everyone for the comments re. my ARC Graphs. I will post the Targets sometime this week, but I kept the default ARC settings.

With regards to the Sub - I did turn the Frequency Knob at the back up to 180 Hz and I am running the cable from the Sub 1 output at the back of the AVM 50v. The phase is set to 0 at this stage. The sub is however currently positioned next to the wall, approx halfway between the 2 corners. I will take the advice and move it into the corner and use the ARC Quick Measure tool - still need to get familiar with it all. The room is however rather large, I would guess approximately 7m x 9m, so Bob you might be right that I need another / better sub.

Thanks again for the feedback.

The sub works by pressurizing the volume of air in the listening room -- which is why bass seems to come "from everywhere" instead of being localized to the position of the sub. So the height of the room also comes into this, as does whether there are openings to the rest of the house.

Some of the vendors include calculators on their web sites which will suggest what size or number of subs would be appropriate to a given volume of room. As you can imagine, these tend to be conservative as the vendors would greatly appreciate it if you would buy more and bigger subs. But they can give you an idea of how far off you might be in terms of sizing the sub for your room. If the sub is too small for your room, you won't get its rated performance, particularly at the low frequency end. It has to huff a lot of air to pressurize a room a 30Hz and below, and a small sub just won't move that much air.

The basic spec for movie LFE is that the sub has to handle 50-90Hz. That gets you the audible effects bass for things like explosions, but doesn't do anything for the bass that you more feel than hear below 30Hz, and probably isn't doing anything to extend the low frequency end of music for your main speakers either -- typically because subs with limited frequency range *ALSO* aren't particularly "accurate" -- i.e., not musical. The best subs will handle down to 20Hz easily (when properly sized to match the room) and will usually extend down to 15Hz. That last octave -- from 30Hz down to 15Hz -- is the chest thumping bass that people prize. The best subs will do this while maintaining accuracy, so that you can depend upon them for music as well (bass steered to them from the main speaker channels).

The "wavelength" of bass frequencies down there is large -- comparable to room dimensions. That means you get "standing waves" set up in the room according to how the sub's physical placement "couples" the sub to the resonances of the room -- including reflections from walls floor and ceiling. Moving the sub -- even inches matter at these frequencies -- changes how the sub couples and can have a dramatic effect on bass response, particularly as you move the ARC mic (or your head) around the seating area. That's why ARC needs you to space out the mic locations for its Measurements. But if the sub is too small for the room, even the best coupling position won't give you truly good bass response.
--Bob
post #39996 of 42717

Hi:

 

Here are my recent graphs. Few things have changed since I last posted, and where I reported horrible sound quality.

 

I have replaced my center channel to a Paradigm C5 from a C3. It made a big difference, and then I included SVS AS-EQ1 between D2v and my sub, it made a very big difference as you would see below, though still sub drops off after 70Hz and i would like to get your opinion on that. Moving the sub is not an option. Sound quality at this point is very good, it has never been this good in three years, and I think AS Eq1 was the biggest contributor. 

 

These is my current speaker set (all Paradigm):

 

Fronts: S8's.

Surrounds: S2's

Center: C5.

Sub: Sub25.

 

As I had said few posts prior to this that I am considering another sub, a Paradigm Sub S2 or another Sub25, and I would like to know if it is a good idea to spend the money, or it is not going to do much, and If I do get then which one, S2 or Sub25. These results are with Max EQ freq: 10,000, and Sub High Pass as FLAT. I am posting the originals in a separate post below.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks everyone.


Edited by paradigm25 - 2/11/13 at 8:35am
post #39997 of 42717

These are original ARC results with Max Eq 5,000, and Sub High Pass as AUTO. It is surprising how sub drops off even with AS Eq1 engaged.

 

Should I apply PBK. I do not have it but if I get a S2, it comes with it. Just a thought.

 

 

 

 

post #39998 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Hi:

Here are my recent graphs. Few things have changed since I last posted, and where I reported horrible sound quality.

I have replaced my center channel to a Paradigm C5 from a C3. It made a big difference, and then I included SVS AS-EQ1 between D2v and my sub, it made a very big difference as you would see below, though still sub drops off after 70Hz and i would like to get your opinion on that. Moving the sub is not an option. Sound quality at this point is very good, it has never been this good in three years, and I think AS Eq1 was the biggest contributor. 

These is my current speaker set (all Paradigm):

Fronts: S8's.
Surrounds: S2's
Center: C5.
Sub: Sub25.

As I had said few posts prior to this that I am considering another sub, a Paradigm Sub S2 or another Sub25, and I would like to know if it is a good idea to spend the money, or it is not going to do much, and If I do get then which one, S2 or Sub25. These results are with Max EQ freq: 10,000, and Sub High Pass as FLAT. I am posting the originals in a separate post below.













Thanks everyone.

The charts are excellent including the sub. But I would suggest you try this as an experiment.
Go to the targets and save the current .ARC file as Original ARC.ARC or something you can remember.
Then raise the sub cutoff to 140 instead of 120.
Recalculate and check the graphs.
If it raises the sub top end a bit and does not destroy any of the other graphs you might want to upload that file and give a listen.
You can always go back to the original ARC file you saved if it does not sound good.
Currently your Sub 25 graph looks very much like my Sub2 graph. Just cuts off a few Hz early.
post #39999 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post


The charts are excellent including the sub. But I would suggest you try this as an experiment.
Go to the targets and save the current .ARC file as Original ARC.ARC or something you can remember.
Then raise the sub cutoff to 140 instead of 120.
Recalculate and check the graphs.
If it raises the sub top end a bit and does not destroy any of the other graphs you might want to upload that file and give a listen.
You can always go back to the original ARC file you saved if it does not sound good.
Currently your Sub 25 graph looks very much like my Sub2 graph. Just cuts off a few Hz early.

Stew:

 

Here are the charts with sub at 140. I don't think it did much good or bad.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. But remember my first post was with Max Eq at 10k, and Sub High Pass at Flat, and second email was the original settings 5k, and Auto. FYI.

post #40000 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Stew:

Here are the charts with sub at 140. I don't think it did much good or bad.

Thanks. But remember my first post was with Max Eq at 10k, and Sub High Pass at Flat, and second email was the original settings 5k, and Auto. FYI.

Here are two subs what do you think ?




Sub on left is your Sub25. Sub on Right is my Sub2. Your sub is working fine. Take some time and listen for a while and see if it sounds good.
post #40001 of 42717
^

Charts look GREAT, including the sub! You shouldn't have anything to complain about sound quality-wise at this point. The sub drop off below 70hz is negligible and shouldn't sound bass-shy at all. And it looks like ARC is crossing the sub at the right spot for your system. Enjoy!

Stew - The Sub 2 is one friggin' awesome sub! Looks like it's performing nicely in your system!
Edited by boyce89976 - 2/11/13 at 3:39pm
post #40002 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

^

Charts look GREAT, including the sub! You shouldn't have anything to complain about sound quality-wise at this point. The sub drop off below 70hz is negligible and shouldn't sound bass-shy at all. And it looks like ARC is crossing the sub at the right spot for your system. Enjoy!

Stew - The Sub 2 is one friggin' awesome sub! Looks like it's performing nicely in your system!

Haven't had much time to listen, but it certainly sounds good at this point. Let me take sometime to really digest my first good sound after three years of frustration. Why Anthem tech support did not help me the way you guys did here, I wonder.

 

Thank you all.

post #40003 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Hi:

Here are my recent graphs. Few things have changed since I last posted, and where I reported horrible sound quality.

I have replaced my center channel to a Paradigm C5 from a C3. It made a big difference, and then I included SVS AS-EQ1 between D2v and my sub, it made a very big difference as you would see below, though still sub drops off after 70Hz and i would like to get your opinion on that. Moving the sub is not an option. Sound quality at this point is very good, it has never been this good in three years, and I think AS Eq1 was the biggest contributor. 

These is my current speaker set (all Paradigm):

Fronts: S8's.
Surrounds: S2's
Center: C5.
Sub: Sub25.

As I had said few posts prior to this that I am considering another sub, a Paradigm Sub S2 or another Sub25, and I would like to know if it is a good idea to spend the money, or it is not going to do much, and If I do get then which one, S2 or Sub25. These results are with Max EQ freq: 10,000, and Sub High Pass as FLAT. I am posting the originals in a separate post below.













Thanks everyone.
Looks like you have yourself a winner. Hopefully, it sounds as good as your charts look. biggrin.gif
post #40004 of 42717

Not without you guys.

 

Thank you.

post #40005 of 42717

Hello All:

 

My recent charts are posted above. I have one question.

 

I have never experienced two subs, would it be worth-a-while to add another sub, and if I do, I am considering Paradigm Sub 25 or a Sub 2. Which would be better for my system ( Sub 2 is almost twice the price of sub 25).

 

This is my current system (all Paradigm Speakers).:

 

Fronts: S8's.

Surrounds: S2's.

Center: C5.

Sub: Sub 25.

 

D2v, Oppo 105, and Sony 5400ES.

 

Stew: What is your opinion?

 

Thanks.


Edited by paradigm25 - 2/11/13 at 6:33pm
post #40006 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The sub works by pressurizing the volume of air in the listening room -- which is why bass seems to come "from everywhere" instead of being localized to the position of the sub. So the height of the room also comes into this, as does whether there are openings to the rest of the hou

Some of the vendors include calculators on their web sites which will suggest what size or number of subs would be appropriate to a given volume of room. As you can imagine, these tend to be conservative as the vendors would greatly appreciate it if you would buy more and bigger subs. But they can give you an idea of how far off you might be in terms of sizing the sub for your room. If the sub is too small for your room, you won't get its rated performance, particularly at the low frequency end. It has to huff a lot of air to pressurize a room a 30Hz and below, and a small sub just won't move that much air.

The basic spec for movie LFE is that the sub has to handle 50-90Hz. That gets you the audible effects bass for things like explosions, but doesn't do anything for the bass that you more feel than hear below 30Hz, and probably isn't doing anything to extend the low frequency end of music for your main speakers either -- typically because subs with limited frequency range *ALSO* aren't particularly "accurate" -- i.e., not musical. The best subs will handle down to 20Hz easily (when properly sized to match the room) and will usually extend down to 15Hz. That last octave -- from 30Hz down to 15Hz -- is the chest thumping bass that people prize. The best subs will do this while maintaining accuracy, so that you can depend upon them for music as well (bass steered to them from the main speaker channels).

The "wavelength" of bass frequencies down there is large -- comparable to room dimensions. That means you get "standing waves" set up in the room according to how the sub's physical placement "couples" the sub to the resonances of the room -- including reflections from walls floor and ceiling. Moving the sub -- even inches matter at these frequencies -- changes how the sub couples and can have a dramatic effect on bass response, particularly as you move the ARC mic (or your head) around the seating area. That's why ARC needs you to space out the mic locations for its Measurements. But if the sub is too small for the room, even the best coupling position won't give you truly good bass response.
--Bob

Bob,
Great explanation, thank you.

Assuming I would get another Sub, let's say the Paradigm Sub 12 or 15 ( for example). Would there be any implications of using it with my current Santorin 25 ?
post #40007 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Hello All:

My recent charts are posted above. I have one question.

I have never experienced two subs, would it be worth-a-while to add another sub, and if I do, I am considering Paradigm Sub 25 or a Sub 2. Which would be better for my system ( Sub 2 is almost twice the price of sub 25).

This is my current system (all Paradigm Speakers).:

Fronts: S8's.
Surrounds: S2's.
Center: C5.
Sub: Sub 25.

D2v, Oppo 105, and Sony 5400ES.

Stew: What is your opinion?

Thanks.

Not Stu but I can tell you we have very similar equipment but I had a single Paradigm 15" Signature Servo then bought another, the two of them did not do it for me so now I have a Sub 2 and am very happy. If you want more sound pressure start out with two Sub 25's, depending on your room and looking at your graphs, these might do it for you. My 2 cents

John
post #40008 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

Not Stu but I can tell you we have very similar equipment but I had a single Paradigm 15" Signature Servo then bought another, the two of them did not do it for me so now I have a Sub 2 and am very happy. If you want more sound pressure start out with two Sub 25's, depending on your room and looking at your graphs, these might do it for you. My 2 cents

John

Agree. The Sub 2 is awe inspiring by itself, but not sure it would equal two Sub 25s. Wish I had your problems! wink.gif
post #40009 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

^

Charts look GREAT, including the sub! You shouldn't have anything to complain about sound quality-wise at this point. The sub drop off below 70hz is negligible and shouldn't sound bass-shy at all. And it looks like ARC is crossing the sub at the right spot for your system. Enjoy!

Stew - The Sub 2 is one friggin' awesome sub! Looks like it's performing nicely in your system!

Haven't had much time to listen, but it certainly sounds good at this point. Let me take sometime to really digest my first good sound after three years of frustration. Why Anthem tech support did not help me the way you guys did here, I wonder.

 

Thank you all.

Told you the AS-EQ1 one will be your best game changersmile.gif ...Excellent sub response and it even beats out Stew's response, a thing i didn't think was possible.

 

Also, IMO keep the sub freq to 120Hz and no more. For one, its the Dolby/DTS standard and raising it higher risks passing deep male voices to the sib which will localize the sub, a thing you do not want to do.


Edited by dmusoke - 2/11/13 at 11:16pm
post #40010 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post


Agree. The Sub 2 is awe inspiring by itself, but not sure it would equal two Sub 25s. Wish I had your problems! wink.gif

 

I am not trying to replace my Sub 25. I am trying to add another one. Is it worth it, would it improve the SQ in the room? If it is then should I add another Suib 25 or Sub 2. That is my question.

 

Thanks again all.

post #40011 of 42717
You already have a flat response. What would you improve?

It is difficult to set up 2 subs. Would you need another AS-EQ1?

I don't see a value in another sub based on your current graph.


Ed
post #40012 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

I am not trying to replace my Sub 25. I am trying to add another one. Is it worth it, would it improve the SQ in the room? If it is then should I add another Suib 25 or Sub 2. That is my question.

Thanks again all.

I remember you saying that moving your current sub was not possible. Where would you put a Sub 2. It is a 250 lb beast that you cannot hide easily
post #40013 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm25 View Post

I am not trying to replace my Sub 25. I am trying to add another one. Is it worth it, would it improve the SQ in the room? If it is then should I add another Suib 25 or Sub 2. That is my question.

Thanks again all.
"Is it worth it, would it improve the SQ in the room?" Good question; but, honestly, no one knows the answer to this question. Everyone can give their opinions, and that's just about it. "If it is then should I add another Suib 25 or Sub 2" If it was me, I would go with another Sub 25. That way, you have 2 identical subs that have the same specs. One thing to keep in mind is that adding another sub may not improve things. Actually, it may make things worse. It's possible that once you add another sub, they may begin to cancel each other out which is what you definitely don't want to happen. If that does happen, then the only way to fix it is to move the subs around. You have indicated that moving your current sub is not an option. So, I wonder where you are going to put the second sub if you do decide to get one if you couldn't move your current sub. I strongly suggest having options to move the subs around when adding a second or more subs. The goal is to have the subs working together and not against each other. So, I would suggest to just listen to what you have for a while like maybe a month. After that, decide if you truly need/want another sub. The Sub 25 that you have is a very capable sub, and if you just listen to your setup for a little while, you may decide that you don't need another sub. However, if after listening for a while you do decide that you need another sub, then I would suggest that you pick out multiple locations for the second sub just in case you have to move them around. Another thing that you can do is once you pick out the multiple locations, you can move your current sub to those locations to get an idea of what the frequency response would be at that location.

I wish you much luck, and I hope my post was helpful.
post #40014 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Essentially this is a form of HDMI handshake failure, complicated by the multi-stage handshake. As with *ALL* cases of HDMI handshake failure, the thing you should suspect first is that you have an HDMI cabling quality problem...Consider the HDMI signal path from end to end...

and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^Short is not good for HDMI cables. It can even be worse than too long.

6 feet (2 meters) is about optimal length for an HDMI cable between any two devices. This has to do with the the way the signal equalization is implemented in the HDMI chips to try to make longer cables work better.
--Bob

I've had an ongoing issue with handshaking from my AVM50 to my HDFury2. I ended getting a Dr. HDMI as well, which almost, but not completely, eliminated the problem. Mainly the issue is when the power-on source is my FiOS STB. For some reason, once I'm powered up and synced, I can switch sources "forever" - with various cables and resolutions - without an issue until I power-down again.

I've swapped cables ad nauseum, but based on this, should I be using 2m HDMI from the STB to the AVM50, then another 2m cable to the Dr. HDMI, and 2m again to the HDFury2 for the best results?

Thanks,

- Mark
post #40015 of 42717
^ Yes.

The only time to use a shorter cable is if it is entirely a passive connection -- i.e., daisy chained, as with a shorty "port saver" cable.

Switching to 6 foot cables may not solve your problem, but it gives you the best odds.

Since your issue is related to power up, it is likely the root cause of the problem is that the handshake is happening before some device is really powered up and ready.

The usual advice in that case is to power up devices in reverse order of the data flow. I.e., Display + HD Fury -- wait -- Dr. HDMI -- wait -- Anthem in your case.
--Bob
post #40016 of 42717
That's very helpful Bob, thanks.

- Mark
post #40017 of 42717
What is the longest lenght that one should consider for an HDMI cable. Specifically, the one running from the D2v to the TV or Projector. I'm only asking because I plan on relocating the equipment outside of the main theater room and was wondering how long the cable can get in order to still receive the best audio/video quality over that HDMI cable.

Does running an ethernet cable to a balun converter work just as good as a straight HDMI connection. If so, can anybody recommed the best balun converter and should I be using CAT5 or CAT6 for this type of run?

Thanks.
post #40018 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The usual advice in that case is to power up devices in reverse order of the data flow. I.e., Display + HD Fury -- wait -- Dr. HDMI -- wait -- Anthem in your case.
--Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by chileboy View Post

That's very helpful Bob, thanks.

- Mark

Mark, is your Fury left powered at all times?
post #40019 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by boyce89976 View Post

^

Charts look GREAT, including the sub! You shouldn't have anything to complain about sound quality-wise at this point. The sub drop off below 70hz is negligible and shouldn't sound bass-shy at all.

I agree! But I thought he was obsessing about the slight rolloff ABOVE 70Hz. It would appear that ARC is intentionally applying this, so adding more subs isn't going to change that.

What blows my mind is how, according to the red line, his uncorrected sub response was going up to 500Hz!

Too bad it's been dropped from the Paradigm line. I guess the Sub-1 is its replacement.
Edited by AVfile - 2/12/13 at 10:45am
post #40020 of 42717
Quote:
Originally Posted by MStanic View Post

What is the longest lenght that one should consider for an HDMI cable. Specifically, the one running from the D2v to the TV or Projector. I'm only asking because I plan on relocating the equipment outside of the main theater room and was wondering how long the cable can get in order to still receive the best audio/video quality over that HDMI cable.

Does running an ethernet cable to a balun converter work just as good as a straight HDMI connection. If so, can anybody recommed the best balun converter and should I be using CAT5 or CAT6 for this type of run?

Thanks.

That's tougher to sort out because the distance depends on the generation of HDMI chips at each end of the cable. The equalization function of the chips has improved over time.

It also depends on whether the cable is designed for long runs.

But typically 50 feet is probably about the limit for a straight HDMI cable. However there are other solutions for longer runs, at a price. The Balun style solutions work well, and for the longest runs there are solutions that use optical cable between the convertors.

If you check, e.g., Blue Jeans Cable, you'll see that their "best" cable comes in two different flavors, one of which is intended for long runs.

Often the biggest problem people have with long runs is that they incorporate wall plate adapters to try to make the installation look more professional. The wall plates themselves can be a source of problems.
--Bob
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