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Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide - Page 1401

post #42001 of 42678
^ I have two Sources set up in the D2v, both of which use my shiny disc player as the input device. One is set to use my Music configuration for ARC, and the other uses the Movie configuration.

In my case I built the Music configuration to use all my speakers EXCEPT for Center -- i.e., Sub is included in the solution, and the Surrounds, but not Center. However the Mode Preset I have set up separately for each Source which uses that Music ARC configuration is set to apply Stereo audio mode as the default when playing 2-channel content.

SO:

1) If listening to 2-channel music content (e.g., CDs), I select that "CD" Source which uses my Music ARC solution and defaults to Stereo audio mode. I get output on LF/RF and Sub (via the Crossover processing set up by ARC in that Music solution).

2) If I ever feel the need to include the Surrounds in such 2-channel music listening, I can change the audio Mode on the fly -- say to PLIIx-Music -- via the Mode button and the Arrow buttons. Now I'll get output in LF/RF/Sub AND the Surrounds. However still no output in Center as I've excluded that from the Music ARC solution (to better render the "stereo" sound stage in the front). NOTE that I'm only doing this when playing Stereo content, so there's not any "real" Center channel content in it. See below for playing multi-channel music sources.

3) When watching movies I select the "Blu-ray" Source, which gets input from the same player but uses the Movie ARC solution which includes all my speakers. I get output on all my speakers. If the movie I'm watching happens to only have Stereo or Mono audio, the Mode Preset I have defined for that Source applies PLIIx-Movie by default, so I still get (surround sound processed) audio in all my speakers. If I feel the need, I can change audio Mode on the fly to Stereo to keep the movie audio in just LF/RF/Sub.

4) When listening to multi-channel Music -- e.g., the 5.1 track from SACD discs -- i ALSO select that "Blu-ray" Source. Again it uses my Movie ARC solution which has all the speakers enabled.

Note that Movie and Music are just names of convenience for the ARC solutions. There is no difference at all in how they are built nor in how they are executed when playing content. As I've said many times, they might just as well be called "Fred" and "Ethel". So they ONLY differ according to the differences YOU build into them -- e.g., dropping Center from my Music solution as I've done.
--Bob
post #42002 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

^
When you are going to listen to music say from a CD where do you select music instead of movie ?

SETUP > SOURCE SETUP > CD or 2CH > (l) BASS MANAGER : MUSIC > (m) ARC ROOM EQ :ON

SETUP > MODE PRESETS > CD or 2CH > STEREO

When the source you set up for stereo listening is selected it will automatically use the ARC 'music' configuration.

Tom
Edited by tngiloy - 11/16/13 at 8:19pm
post #42003 of 42678
hey guys, new to the forum, long time lurker, thanks for all the great conversations.

i have an issue w my new (second owner) D2v 3d. ARC cannot upload data to the unit. it completes measure and calculate steps, saves arc file, then kicks errors at upload. the two i'm getting are:

failed to enter debug mode
failed to find offset

i tried restoring factory defaults and then uploading, but same thing. has failed 4 or 5 times now.

any thoughts appreciated. i've emailed tech supp.


thanks!


ps - fw 3.10, arc 3.02
post #42004 of 42678
^ We've seen this error before, but in relation to firmware installs, not ARC Uploads. My recollection was that there was a fairly simple fix, but I just did a Search in the thread and I'm not spotting it, so best to wait until you get a response from Tech Support.

Since you are the 2nd owner of this D2v/3D, one immediate question that comes to mind is when was the v3.10 firmware installed? Even if it was previously in the D2v, that firmware needs to be RE-installed after the 3D upgrade hardware is swapped in so that the firmware properly recognizes the new hardware.

Anyway, Anthem Tech Support should have an answer for you when you can reach them on Monday. The fact that you were able to complete the Measurement pass pretty much insures there's not anything seriously wrong -- just some configuration item that needs to be given a shove.

If you are using the RS-232 (serial port) input for remote control of the D2v as well, another thing to check is the Setup sub-menu for the RS-232 stuff. Check to see that it matches the picture in the Manual. The usual culprit here is the setting that causes the serial port to echo back commands coming in to it. Some serial port systems require that setting to be changed, but you want to put it back before using the Anthem software (like ARC). Again, since your Measurement pass worked, I doubt that's it, but it is worth a check.
--Bob
post #42005 of 42678
Sorry guys, I should know this, but I'm having a lapse of memory. How do I determine the version of ARC software and D2v software I'm running?
post #42006 of 42678
^ For D2v: Press Select once on the Remote and see the firmware version # in the on-screen display or Front Panel display.

For ARC: Run the ARC Windows program in Manual mode (i.e, as if viewing charts). The easiest way is just to double click on your existing ARC solution file. Choose About from the Help menu to see the version number of the ARC Windows application.
--Bob
post #42007 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ For D2v: Press Select once on the Remote and see the firmware version # in the on-screen display or Front Panel display.

For ARC: Run the ARC Windows program in Manual mode (i.e, as if viewing charts). The easiest way is just to double click on your existing ARC solution file. Choose About from the Help menu to see the version number of the ARC Windows application.
--Bob

Thanks. I am running the latest softwares, but I wanted to make some adjustments and started to run ARC. The first time I attempted running it, it found my D2v with serial #, but it stalled and hung in that position for 20 mins. I ended up aborting, but now when I try to run it again, I get a popup message that says: "Measurement procedure failed. Could not find a valid Anthem processor"

IGNORE - it is working now
Edited by bluemark81 - 11/17/13 at 6:53am
post #42008 of 42678

Bob,

 

I have a D2V and I use only HDMI 1 output in my projector, Buy a new TV and put in HDMI 2 output. I can not see the OSD HDMI 2, Exite a way to show?
Now I have no video signal output from the HDMI 2
any problem?

 

 

Thanks

 

Dênio

post #42009 of 42678
^ On Screen Display is not available on the HDMI 2 output -- only on HDMI 1. If you still have no video on HDMI 2, start by checking that the HDMI plug has not come loose -- check both ends.
--Bob
post #42010 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ No. ARC has to build a set of Room Correction parameters for the main speakers that knows it won't have the Sub in the mix.

Make this change in ARC, re-Calculate and re-Upload. No need to re-Measure.
--Bob

Bob

In my targets, for music configuration, would I turn the x-over for my sub as low as it can go and set my mains to full range x-over to effectively reduce or eliminate the subs during music playback? And then recalculate and upload?
Edited by bluemark81 - 11/17/13 at 7:46am
post #42011 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ We've seen this error before, but in relation to firmware installs, not ARC Uploads. My recollection was that there was a fairly simple fix, but I just did a Search in the thread and I'm not spotting it, so best to wait until you get a response from Tech Support.

Since you are the 2nd owner of this D2v/3D, one immediate question that comes to mind is when was the v3.10 firmware installed? Even if it was previously in the D2v, that firmware needs to be RE-installed after the 3D upgrade hardware is swapped in so that the firmware properly recognizes the new hardware.

Anyway, Anthem Tech Support should have an answer for you when you can reach them on Monday. The fact that you were able to complete the Measurement pass pretty much insures there's not anything seriously wrong -- just some configuration item that needs to be given a shove.

If you are using the RS-232 (serial port) input for remote control of the D2v as well, another thing to check is the Setup sub-menu for the RS-232 stuff. Check to see that it matches the picture in the Manual. The usual culprit here is the setting that causes the serial port to echo back commands coming in to it. Some serial port systems require that setting to be changed, but you want to put it back before using the Anthem software (like ARC). Again, since your Measurement pass worked, I doubt that's it, but it is worth a check.
--Bob

hi bob, thanks for the thoughtful response as always.

i installed 3.10, after board was upgraded. the install went fine and the unit has been working with 3.10 since.

i am not using rs232 for control (other than fw/arc), so i would assume that the default factory settings would have the protocol settings as needed. and yes, as you comment, other than the upload arc communicates just fine with the unit.

so, yes, waiting for tech supp. hopefully is an easy fix, anxious to get arc data online.

thanks!
post #42012 of 42678
Posted in MRX forum. Will post it here for some help. Tried running ARC all day yesterday in MRX300 but each time the process goes smoothly with measurement & calculation part but hangs up right in the middle of the upload process giving error message & strangely is not recognizing the Anthem receiver right in the middle of upload process. Tried changing settings on Keyspan adapter & also doublechecked for any loose connections to no avail. Wondering if anyone else has encountered this problem. ARC worked & uploaded last week properly & I am using the same 2 laptops.
post #42013 of 42678
Just wondering if the Video Processor failed on my D2...
And if so...
Will my newer projector (Sony HW50 with HDMI 1.4) process and show an equivalent picture as the D2 was?

Anyway, the issue:
Composite, component and HDMI all show no video input signal from any source I use.
OSD works fine though.
Audio works fine.
D2 lcd screen gets stuck showing "powering on" until I switch source or change volume.

What happened was during the last few days screen would flicker to black...I thought it was a HDCP handshake issue so ordered new hispeed cables but that didn't change anything. Then the video input resolution signal would say 1120p and I'd get a pink screen. Now I get no video input signal.

I've done a full power cycle down but that didn't help.

The D2 has HDMI 1.1 and I've always run stuff using HDMI from Source > D2 > Projector.

Because of the above video processor issue I just run HDMI from Source > Projector for video, and for audio I run an Optical from Source > D2

I'm not noticing a difference in audio or video quality. Is that false and just wishful thinking on my part?

Thanks for the help
post #42014 of 42678
My only other options are to either get a different USB to serial adapter or reset the MRX & start over. Hopefully the partial upload of ARC data has not corrupted the DSP in MRX. Does resetting MRX erase previous ARC data?
post #42015 of 42678
^^^^^^^^
DSP data and ARC data are stored completely separately, so you should not have any corruption.
The ARC coefficients are stored in a 'protected' area of memory, such that RESETs or Firmware uploads should not affect them - info supplied many moons ago by Anthem Tech Support. The only way to alter or erase the ARC data is by using the PC based application.
Regards, Mike.
post #42016 of 42678
Hopefully the previous ARC data upload did not get corrupted by partial uploads/ interruptions and hopefully is intact . I was hoping that ARC data also gets erased with reset so that I can start over with a clean slate. Wondering if anybody else had similar situation. I have also emailed tech support to see how I can resolve the problem of partial uploads.
post #42017 of 42678
^ ARC stores data in the Setup menu and in special memory holding the Room Correction Parameters.

Reset Factory Defaults takes care of the Setup menu stuff.

There is an Erase function in the ARC application which takes care of the Room Correction Parameters memory. Whether an Erase will work depends on what's blocking the Upload in the first place.
--Bob
post #42018 of 42678
Thanks Bob. I will give it a try until I hear back from Anthem tech support. Would quick measure erase the previous ARC data also?
post #42019 of 42678
No. It just resets the Setup menu stuff so that ARC isn't being used.
--Bob
post #42020 of 42678
Thanks Bob. I guess I will wait for response from Anthem tech support. I am hoping that these partial uploads have not erased previous ARC calculations in MRX that was uploaded successfully last week.
post #42021 of 42678
Finally accessed setup menu in ARC to set the speakers up manually & noticed that under source setup menu for ARC it says " not available". Does that mean that the ARC data from prior successful upload was erased? I did do a quick measure for subwoofer prior to accessing setup menu so I am not sure if its the failed partial uploads or the quick measure that disabled the ARC.
post #42022 of 42678
Quick measure clears arc but as long as you saved the measurements last time you can just open them and mess with it to your hearts content.
post #42023 of 42678


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

I find the sub too obtrusive for music listening and rather than dial it down each time I switch over to music, I was trying to determine a more "automatic" method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemark81 View Post

I don't understand how that will reduce the subs impact or obtrusiveness. I have one set of curves for both HT and music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Note that Movie and Music are just names of convenience for the ARC solutions. There is no difference at all in how they are built nor in how they are executed when playing content. As I've said many times, they might just as well be called "Fred" and "Ethel". So they ONLY differ according to the differences YOU build into them -- e.g., dropping Center from my Music solution as I've done.
--Bob

I do not doubt you that there is not a different algorithm for 'movie' or 'music' in ARC. But when 2 separate movie/music ARC runs are done for different speaker configurations -- 5.1 and 2.1 in my case--- ARC chooses different settings.

I again suggest for bluemark81, or anyone else who uses different speaker configurations for watching movies and listening to music to take the small amount of time it takes to complete a 2.1 ARC run to get the most out of their system.

I have included screen captures of my ARC target page showing the different settings ARC chose for 5.1 vs 2.1 speaker configurations, and what happens when doing only one 'same as movie' run.
The 'room gain' is about 1.5 dB less in what ARC chose for my 'music' and the uploaded subwoofer gain in my D2v's settings is -1.0 for 'music sub', and +0.5 for 'movie sub'.
If bluemark81 just does one run and removes the speakers ARC will leave his room gain the same as movie and upload the same sub woofer level in his settings, and he may continue to find his sub to be 'too obtrusive'.
I believe if he does 2 separate runs that ARC will make similar adjustments for his music speaker configuration that it consistently makes in mine, and he will find the sub to be non-obtrusive. And instead of removing the sub completely, he will be able to include the sub with his music and gain the advantages that it would add to his music listening enjoyment.

Tom
post #42024 of 42678
thought i'd post my freq response graphs, if anyone has any comments. i am an audio vis professional and have lots of experience with screening room setup, but never used arc before, so.. if there're any thoughts i'd be interested. this is the correction i plan to upload (as soon as that issue i'm having gets sorted), it corrects up to 10k instead of the default 5 as i feel the higher harmonics and ring outs are the parts of the waveform that give the sense of space and air and thus realism, so i figured if the dsp can handle it why not? my ears can, smile.gif. xover is 60 for mains and surrs, and 90 for the sub. may tweak that, but will start there. the room gain was defaulted around .5 and i left it there. any reason to change?

this is D2v/3d feeding a lexicon 5ch amp and playing through thiel l, r, c, surrounds, and a velodyne sub.

i see some dips i don't like, and some low end summing resonances, (not much treatment in my room, just couches and rugs) and wavering here and there, but in general the measured doesn't look so bad to me, and the calculated curve is going to be pretty spot on, so... i feel good. and can't wait to hear it!

thanks for looking...


post #42025 of 42678
Talked to customer support regarding my issue with failed uploads on MRX300. They told me to make sure baud rate is set at 19200 which I did but seems like my Keyspan adapter is not retaining those settings. How do I make these settings stick for the adapter? Port is COM1 with FIFO buffer of 16(default) & baud rate of 19200. After I changed the baud rate I still get partial uploads.
Edited by vinodk - 11/18/13 at 9:12pm
post #42026 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Talked to customer support regarding my issue with failed uploads on MRX300. They told me to make sure baud rate is set at 19200 which I did but seems like my Keyspan adapter is not retaining those settings. How do I make these settings stick for the adapter? Port is COM1 with FIFO buffer of 16(default) & baud rate of 19200. After I changed the baud rate I still get partial uploads.

What makes you think it is not retaining the setting? When you check the Properties of the COM1 port isn't the baud rate still as you set it?

Do you have another computer you can try? Also, temporarily turn off Windows software Firewall. There have been random reports here over time that turning off the firewall can make the serial connection more reliable.
--Bob
post #42027 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtich View Post

thought i'd post my freq response graphs, if anyone has any comments. i am an audio vis professional and have lots of experience with screening room setup, but never used arc before, so.. if there're any thoughts i'd be interested. this is the correction i plan to upload (as soon as that issue i'm having gets sorted), it corrects up to 10k instead of the default 5 as i feel the higher harmonics and ring outs are the parts of the waveform that give the sense of space and air and thus realism, so i figured if the dsp can handle it why not? my ears can, smile.gif. xover is 60 for mains and surrs, and 90 for the sub. may tweak that, but will start there. the room gain was defaulted around .5 and i left it there. any reason to change?

this is D2v/3d feeding a lexicon 5ch amp and playing through thiel l, r, c, surrounds, and a velodyne sub.

i see some dips i don't like, and some low end summing resonances, (not much treatment in my room, just couches and rugs) and wavering here and there, but in general the measured doesn't look so bad to me, and the calculated curve is going to be pretty spot on, so... i feel good. and can't wait to hear it!

thanks for looking...

. . . .

dtich,
Post the Targets window as well so folks can see the details of what you've set.

Your main problem is with the Subwoofer. First, it appears you have changed the low end Target to "FLAT" -- i.e., the High Pass Filter in the Targets > Advanced settings. The raw output of your Sub (red Measured curve) suggests that's a bad idea. Your Sub does not appear to have good output below 30Hz (not unusual for "everyday" home theater subs that aren't really configured to reproduce bass down in the region where bass is more felt than heard). By setting its low end Target to FLAT you are asking ARC to boost the signal to it down there, even though it can't handle it. As you can see, ARC still protects you in that it won't push more than +6dB of boost -- which is why the green Calculated line has residual error below the black dashed Target line at 20Hz. But still, pushing that much boost into a Sub that can't handle it is not good for the Sub. You can bottom the cone for example, or overheat its built in amp.

The weak output in the low bass may simply be due to the design of your Sub (i.e., you need to consider getting a better Sub), or it may be the Sub is physically too small for the volume of air space in your room -- you have to huff a lot of air to "pressurize" a room at 20Hz (consider a bigger Sub or adding a 2nd Sub) -- OR there may be a settings problem on the Sub. Look for any setting related to Boundary Gain Compensation -- i.e., correcting for a Sub too close to a wall -- and disable that. If there are ports you can open to enhance low bass output do that. If the Sub has a settings choice trading off volume vs. accuracy, switch it to accuracy.

If no luck with settings adjustments on the Sub, then you should spend some time with the Quick Measure tool (ARC's Tools menu) which will give you a real time chart of the raw, uncorrected output of the Sub as you try the Sub at different candidate locations. NOTE: After using Quick Measure you need to re-Upload an ARC solution as it disables the existing one in the Anthem -- if you've moved your Sub you should do the whole thing starting with a new Measurement. Basically what you are looking for is a candidate location which gives you better low bass output. For example, some "servo" subs are known to have problems when placed in a corner. Try shifting them up along a side wall. At these frequencies, even inches matter -- even just rotating the Sub in place. After moving the Sub remember to adjust its Distance setting and also recheck its Phase with respect to the main speakers.

The Quick Measure tool will also give you the fastest answer whether settings changes on the Sub are helping.

Meanwhile, at the high end it appears your Sub's built-in Crossover may be artificially reducing its high bass output. It might still be enabled at, say 80Hz -- perhaps because a "THX" preset is enabled. Since ARC is going to do your Crossover processing, you don't want anything in the Sub artificially limiting its high bass output. So disable the Crossover built into the Sub, or if that's not possible, then crank it up to the highest frequency to get it out of the way as much as possible.

Ideally, you want the Sub to be able to contribute up to 120Hz, which is the top end of the LFE channel.



As for your Main speakers, I think you've been a bit too aggressive in lowering Crossover for LF/RF. The Calculated curve for LF has residual error (i.e,. it is below the Target curve) throughout the region below the Crossover frequency. It is not a big error, but raising the Crossover a bit will eliminate that. Ideally you are looking for a clean Octave (factor of 2 in frequency) below the Crossover setting. That is, if the Crossover for LF/RF is 80Hz you should be checking the match between Calculated and Target for them down to 1/2 of that -- 40Hz. The Crossover rolls into effect over about an Octave, and so you want them to be able to contribute clean output down to there.



It looks like you've got a Room Cancellation Null near 150Hz -- the dip in the Measured curves -- affecting all but Center for some reason. That may be why ARC is detecting a low Room Gain in the room. It may also be that you've got bass treatments installed or that your room is quite large.

Normally, I'd suggest you increase the Room Gain setting to 2dB -- which gets it into the range sound engineers expect for listening rooms when mixing movies. HOWEVER, doing that will require ARC to provide a bit more boost in that problem region near 150Hz. So you need to see whether raising Room Gain introduces residual error in there and compromise a bit. The specific choice of Crossover you pick (raising it up from the 60Hz you have now as suggested above) will have an impact on how clean things are in there as well, so experiment a bit.
--Bob
post #42028 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post

I do not doubt you that there is not a different algorithm for 'movie' or 'music' in ARC. But when 2 separate movie/music ARC runs are done for different speaker configurations -- 5.1 and 2.1 in my case--- ARC chooses different settings.

I again suggest for bluemark81, or anyone else who uses different speaker configurations for watching movies and listening to music to take the small amount of time it takes to complete a 2.1 ARC run to get the most out of their system.

I have included screen captures of my ARC target page showing the different settings ARC chose for 5.1 vs 2.1 speaker configurations, and what happens when doing only one 'same as movie' run.
The 'room gain' is about 1.5 dB less in what ARC chose for my 'music' and the uploaded subwoofer gain in my D2v's settings is -1.0 for 'music sub', and +0.5 for 'movie sub'.
If bluemark81 just does one run and removes the speakers ARC will leave his room gain the same as movie and upload the same sub woofer level in his settings, and he may continue to find his sub to be 'too obtrusive'.
I believe if he does 2 separate runs that ARC will make similar adjustments for his music speaker configuration that it consistently makes in mine, and he will find the sub to be non-obtrusive. And instead of removing the sub completely, he will be able to include the sub with his music and gain the advantages that it would add to his music listening enjoyment.

Tom

ARC builds a solution based on the speakers it is told to listen to. The solution has to meet the needs of all those speakers, which may lead to compromises if some speakers need more help than others. Similarly, ARCs analysis of things like Room Gain is colored by all the speaker output it hears -- which can vary the result due to the differing speaker locations in the room. In one sense, the more speakers included, the more "accurate" that result because inherent differences in each speaker's own output get averaged out.

My point was not to say there's no value in building a Music solution that includes only the speakers you want to use. Indeed whether that differs from a solution with other speakers included will depend on any challenges added by those other speakers. My POINT was, rather, that HOWEVER you build your two solutions, both of them can be used for either Movie or Music playback at your whim -- whichever solution is better suited to the set of speakers you want to use at the moment.

I.e., ARC doesn't do anything more "musical" for Music or more "cinematic" for Movie. if you swapped around and built Movie like you are now building Music, and vice versa, you would get the same results.

In my case, only the output from my Center speaker is a challenge for ARC. And so I'm quite comfortable building a Music solution that includes everything EXCEPT Center, even though I know that MOST of the time I will only use Music to listen to 2-channel content in Stereo audio mode -- i.e., only using LF/RF/Sub for output even though the Surrounds are still present in the solution. Building a solution that also excludes the Surounds does not, in my case, change the results for Stereo playback (only LF/RF/Sub active).

If I'm listening to a stereo movie track and don't want to incorporate the other speakers via Surround Sound Processing (i.e., PLIIx-Movie) I could use the Movie solution temporarily set to Stereo audio mode, OR I could switch to using the Music solution -- also in Stereo audio mode -- and get pretty close to identical results, but NOT identical because the Movie solution has been built to accommodate the needs of the Center speaker, whether or not it is currently being used.

And again, for multi-channel Music I have no qualms about using my Movie solution (which includes all the speakers including Center of course). That is, I know that the Movie solution is not compromised in any way as regards its "musicality". Again, these two solutions might just as well have been named Fred and Ethel.
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 11/18/13 at 10:15pm
post #42029 of 42678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Are you related to poster JOY52? Both of you joined AVS yesterday, your posts are equally confusing -- no context -- and BOTH of you are including these 1-pixel IMG files (tracking files?) at the end of your posts.
Hi Bob,
When you see a new user making a few nonsense posts, no quotes, and the weird image thingy, those are robo-posts. I just click the flag and report them, and they magically disappear by the next day. smile.gif

One sure fire way to confirm is to search on an unusual key word in the post with the "search this thread" tool. That turned up the original source content from a post in this thread from 2009.
post #42030 of 42678
Roger,
Yeah, that's what I figured -- but I thought I'd give them a chance to reply just in case there was a real human on the other end.

I flagged as well, and also posted in Forum Operations Center that a new gaggle of robo accounts seems to have arrived.

EDITED TO ADD: I went back and deleted MY posts that quoted the spammer posts reported (and now already deleted by the Mods). No need to give them any more visibility. I had edited out the IMG tag in the part I quoted, but still.
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 11/19/13 at 2:46am
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