Monitor Audio Owners Thread - Page 184

It looks like an update to the Silver RS line is coming down the pipes. Looks like they're bringing some of the GS developments (dimpled drivers, HiVe flow port) and a gloss black/white option.Terrible pictures but some pretty good info to be had:

http://community.whathifi.com/blogs/...-pictures.aspx

I just bought a GSLCR and when I sit off center dialogue seems to come from the left side of the TV. I think this is because one of the drivers cuts off at a lower frequency than the other. So then any dialogue comes from one side of the TV if you aren't in the sweet spot.. This is awful and I advise anyone to keep this in mind when buying Monitor Audio as they do this in all their centers.

Have you tried to flip the GSLCR up-side-down and see what happens??

If anyone is interested, I have a mint pair of black RS-1 available...

Hi Fellows,

Finally, I have a receiver update. After spending about 3 weeks to find my next receiver (had Onkyo 876) I've settled on Arcam AVR350. Bought it from a local dealer for a good price last week. I've also replaced the Oppo DV-380H with BDP-83 and have hooked up the units with RS6 + RSLCR over the week end.

Few minus points about Arcam AVR350 (and I knew them before buying it):
- The HDMI is only for video switching (no audio over HDMI, analog video input will not be sent to HDMI out and vice-versa, no OSD on HDMI). One has to use analog multi-channel input (using the multi-channel output from BD/DVD player) for HD audio or use reduced resolution version of HD audio over digital output from the BD/DVD player.
- No THX, no ARC or Audyssey, no HD Radio, XM, Sirius
- No fancy GUI, just a old fashioned plain text GUI

Now, what is good about Arcam AVR350:
- The sound....!!! I've been listening to the system for the past 4-5 days. The Arcam produces crisp, clean and punchy sound both for music and movies. The power output is solid for a 100w/channel rated receiver. I'm yet to reach the maximum volume which I was able to do easily with 140w/channel rated Onkyo 876. I've tried CD, DVD, Blue ray and all of them sound excellent. I also need to mention that the Arcam is built like a tank and runs cool most of the time. It gets little warm if you run it for long hours but never feels it is hot. I needed to run a fan by side all the time for the Onkyo.

I bought Oppo for its sound quality for CD's and its ability to decode the HD audio formats and send it via analog outs which I can feed to Arcam (since AVR350 does not support audio over HDMI). So I had Oppo connected to Arcam using analog output for CD's and digital (via Optical) output for DVD / Blue ray. I wanted to try Arcam's DAC for music, so I removed the analog connections and played some songs over Oppo's digital out. I was not expecting much difference......but what a surprise...!!! I was wrong. There was HUGE difference in the sound quality. I even connected both Oppo's analog outs and digital out to Arcam and switched between Arcam's inputs while playing the same song. I could not go back to Oppo's analog out after listening to what Arcam's DACs could do. The music sounds fuller and richer..... (it is really so much better) when it is converted by Arcam.

Can there be so much difference between two DACs (Cirrus in Oppo vs Wolfson in Arcam)? Or is there something else that I need to look into? For music I always thought one has to use the players DACs and connect it via analog to the receiver. Am I wrong?

I'm yet to try Oppo's multi-channel analog outs for HD audio. Since I just have fronts and center (no sub and surrounds yet), I was sending the audio out using digital out even while playing blue rays. I'm going to try it tonight and will post updates.

About the RS6s - I think overall I'm happy with them now. I do feel that I will want to upgrade them in some time (especially the RSLCR). For movies looks like I need to add a sub, no matter how good the RS6s' woofers are. The Arcam AVR350 - I think it is going to stay in my home for a very long time to come.

~Mahesh

Mahesh -

It's not just the DAC chips, but the whole digital to analog process within a component, including the analog output stage that follows the DAC.

I think you've discovered for yourself that there is no one accepted way to get the best sound between player and AVR/prepro. Though generally speaking, you let the best designed component handle the conversion. The oppo is a great digital source, but I would imagine that the analoge stage is not as good as the Arcam. They had to get the price of the unit low somehow. Now iif you were to take a state of the art player, your situation would be reversed and the analog out very well should sound better. However, this is only if the analog inputs on the AVR aren't digitized for bass management, and other types of signal processing, which is often the case. You need a true analoge pass through to realize the sound quality of a good player.

Tim,

While I understood other points related to analog output stage, couple of questions:
1. AVR350 can process the 2 channel analog input and digitalize to apply the DSP modes (including its own DSP Effects). Are you are referring to the same?
2. However, for multi-channel input, this is what the AVR350's manual says:

"The AVR350 switches these analogue inputs directly to the analogue outputs via its own volume control circuit. This direct path maintains the best possible sound quality for DVD-A and SACD sources; it has the side-effect that there is no bass-management for DVD-A or SACD players. In this case, the bass-management functionality of the player itself should be used"

Should I be worried about using Oppo's de-coded multi-channel analog output as a source for HD audio?

Tim - you are right. Below is the snapshot from the manual:

Analogue audio connections

Stereo Inputs:
Connect the left and right outputs of your source equipment to the left and right inputs.

Multi -ch annel DVD-A/SACD Inputs:
Connect the audio outputs of your DVD-Audio or SACD player to these input sockets.

These are available for formats requiring eight channels. Currently no formats are available requiring these connections, which are provided for future compatibility.

The multi-channel input is intended for use with sources that decode the surround channels internally, such as DVD-A or SACD players.

The AVR350 switches these analogue inputs directly to the analogue outputs via its own volume control circuit. This direct path maintains the best possible sound quality for DVD-A and SACD sources; it has the side-effect that there is no bass-management for DVD-A or SACD players. In this case, the bass-management functionality of the player itself should be used.

Now,
1. Should I be worried about using Oppo's de-coded multi-channel analog output as a source for HD audio?
2. Can you please through some light on "You need a true analoge pass through to realize the sound quality of a good player" ?

Mahesh -

Since the oppo will be doing the decoding and the DA conversion for you multi-channel material, you will be hearing the sound of the oppo player and not the Arcam. Maybe it won't be as critical for movie playback, but you won't be getting the same sound quality from multi-channel through the Arcam as you will with the stereo digital connection because the Arcam is no long doing the conversion and you aren't using the Arcam's analoge stage. Arcam says what is says about the multi-channel analog inputs with the expectation that your player will have a good DA section and that you don't want those inputs mucked with. As far as I know, the oppo has been praised as a digital transport, but not so much for it's analog outs. Not that the anlog outs will sound horrible (very little does these days), but it won't be the same as if you had the Arcam being feed the audio via HDMI.

For point two, think of it this way. If you had a player that had a better D to A stage than your AVR, you want to make sure that the AVR doesn't also run that signal through it's DACs before the signal reaches your speakers. If you don't use a pure pass-through connection, then you are having the player convert from D to A, the AVR then converts the A back to D to process the signal, then from D back to A to your speakers.

Many AVRs will convert the incoming analog signal to digital to do things like bass management (setting the cross-over to the sub). But in your case it is a non-issue since you are have the AVR do the DA conversion for stereo.

Tim,

I got you now. I've not never thought Oppo's analog stage could make the sound so much different than of an AVR. All the places I've read have mentioned that Oppo's decoder should not be of any different from the one in the AVR as it "only de-codes the format". I'm going to try it for movies now. Lets see how it is coming up. Thanks much for your clarifications.

~Mahesh

The bolded statement is true, but only if you send that decoded signal in digital form to the AVR / prepro (via HDMI). When you use the analog outs of a player, you have introduced a new conversion process to the mix. Decoding is just like unpacking a zip file, D to A conversion is more tricky, as you have witnessed by comparing the conversion in the player vs. the Arcam AVR.

Glad to help.

Haven't been here since last year..I miss the feeling of setting up a new system and exploring all the nuances like Mahesh did..Good for you man.I have a RS6,RSFX and RSLCR in my family room paired with Onkyo 705(only for HT),Sunfire 200w*5 amp and SVS SB12 plus.I am very happy with the system and thanks to all the members here for your inputs and insights. Am pleased to hear about your setup with Arcam..looks like a solid receiver.

I second your opinion about the SQ of Onkyo..so I ended up playing my Mp3's through Airport express to Dacmagic and bypassing the D to A of onkyo altogether..Better DAC's provide a great music listening environment.Since I listen in stereo mode(2.1) I read in the last few threads that Onkyo will still convert the analog to digital for Bass management and back to Analog again...Is that correct?I thought I was bypassing Onkyo DAC's altogether..
Thanks
KS

Thanks Tim

You are referring to PCM over HDMI right?. I have no reservations about Oppo's capabilities as a digital transport. But it was also equally praised for its sonic capabilities comparing to players costing 5-10x. The new Oppo has great GUI (the best I've seen in players I know) and picture. Their support is great as well. Now, I'm wondering what make them to stand out from budget universal players like Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, etc.

How much the quality of RCA cables contribute in analog connections? Just to say, would a $90 cable make significant different from a $30 cable?

~ Mahesh

Hi KS,

You are right, I tried to get the best out of Onkyo for 2 weeks. I ended up replacing it with AVR350. The Arcam is dry on features but it really sounds a like a different world to me. But again, its just how it sounds to my ears. You need to listen to yourself to make a comparison.

What is your CD/DVD player? Do you use dacmagic for CD's also or just for mp3? Mp3 sounds great in AVR350 too which was not the case with Onkyo even after enabling its music enhancer. Arcam does not have a specified feature like that, but it looks like it does a great job without saying it.

How do you do bass management in Onkyo for 2 channel analog input? Do you use tone controls or use DSP modes?

~ Mahesh

Yes, PCM over HDMI.

OK, so lets say the oppo has a good analog section, so the issue changes from a clear cut matter of better or worse to a matter of different, which depending on your personal preferences for sound could be equated to better or worse. Going off of your stated preference for the sound of the Arcam, there is a chance that the difference in sound provided by the oppo may not match up with what you want. Or it may just be different, but still enjoyable.


In my experiece, none. Get good quality shielded cabels, but don't be concerned with high-end cables.

You can get 6 recording studio quality RCA cabels here for under $120.

http://bluejeanscable.com/store/6channel/index.htm

I'm sure it's not the GSLCR. Room dynamics plays a much bigger role in sound placement than a couple of driver placed next to each other.

If the center channel is placed non-centered between the side walls without some really good absorption on the walls, this happens very easily. Even just a foot off makes a difference. Moreso, the front left and right really have a shifting affect if not centered without good absorption.

Even if everything is centered, if there is something on one side that is not on the other, the sound shifts. Something as simple as a framed picture or an opening in the wall has a major affect.

I'm in complete agreement with you.



I will consider this place for my next cable purchase. Very useful information. Thanks.

~ Mahesh

Thanks for the reply. After more investigating I don't believe it's the speaker. For one thing when I had just a 2 channel system people's voices would seem to come more from the right side when I sat off axis so now it doesn't sound like what I'm used to. I plan to do some acoustic treatments in the future so that should also help.

This sort of behavior is normal for stereo listening. As you sit closer to one speaker, it is higher in volume than the speaker that is further away, hence the stereo image "pulls" to one side. You only have a problem in you are sitting dead center and it still sounds uncentered. But, this is the whole point of the center speaker, to keep the vocals centered at all times. Can you share any more details on the problem you are hearing when running the center speaker. Does shift in sound happen with all movies? Which surround mode are you using? Have you matched levels between the front three speakers?

If it is easier for you, there are also a number of people that make custom cables on Ebay. Just look for those made with Canare or Belden cable and terminated with Canare RCA plugs or Eichman RCA plugs.

I too went the SVS route with my MA speakers (RS6, RSLCR, RSFX, RSFX) and couldn't be happier. I snagged an SVS PC-13 Ultra last year around the same time as I purchased my speakers.

Got everything (speakers and sub) second hand, so I saved quite a bit.

Those SVS sub are awesome, I added the PB10-NSD to my RS8 HT theatre, it is just so awesome sounding, I was contemplating the MA sub but decided o give the SVS a try instead and am glad that I did!

Well it's another 7 weeks before my PB13-Ultra is delivered, can't wait to add it to my system.

That is a beast, 27" deep, I wanted the "Plus-12" but thought that too big, what size is your room?

No no, he was only listening to the two front channels from the center listening position so that he could compare their perceived shift to the shift he was experiencing with his center channel. Since the shift existed in both the center channel and the comparison test, he was able to determine that the center channel shift was due to room dynamics rather than the center channel itself. Now he plans on using acoustic room treatments to properly remedy it.

Something as small as a one square-foot acoustically reflective surface or wall opening on one side will really mess up the imaging, and many non-dedicated rooms typically have such surfaces in the form of picture frames, furniture, windows, and doorways, etc. These affect the imaging much more than a center channel having a couple drivers mounted next to each other. I don't think anyone could perceive a shift with any decent center channel due to two drivers mounted next to each other, especially with Monitor Audio center channels. That's why I knew the shift that he was experiencing was due to room dynamics rather than the MA center channel as he first complained about. I'm sure he will be pretty pleased with the improvement once the room is taken care of.

What I basically did was flip the centre channel upside down so that the two higher xover drivers were on the side where I was sitting and it didn't really change things. There is a dresser that is a few feet to the left of the C and that is directly next to the L that I need to get rid of as I believe the sound might be reflecting off of that and could be making me perceive sound as coming from more the left. And I also think going from a phantomed C to a real C is so different my ears have to get used to it as now dialogue isn't focused on the right side.

Thanks for all the help guys.

All my music is in itunes on mac which streams to Airport express==>TOSLINK==>Dacmagic==>onkyo 705.I use aural thrills silver braid IC's for my analog connection.I have Audyssey setup in onkyo and use Stereo mode(2.1 channels) with SVS as my sub.The bass management is done by the receiver.

I do plan to upgrade to a better receiver.Considering the new emotiva,when that comes out
-KS

Has any one heard the LCR Monitor Audio R-One-HD? W/ my current situation I'm looking into this LCR bar to pair up with a sub, a 3.1 set up. I have 2 young kids and want to avoid speaker wires/stands so I'm eliminating the rears. I'm planning on powering it w/ the Onkyo 507. I know this doesn't do the faux surround and I'm cool with that. Just looking for something that sounds good. I can though get this speaker for a very good price but will not have a chance to demo locally. Thanks.

mark

I have the MA Radius speakers that use the same tweeter and mids as the 3-in-1. I have yet to hear a speaker of comparable size that sounds anywhere as good. Balanced, detailed, and they can play surprisingly loud for there size. They even sound good without a sub, though you'll want one if you want the full effect of movies.

anyone using gr60 or similarly powerful speaker with ice power amps?