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Klipsch owner thread - Page 700

post #20971 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard8873 View Post

odd, should be better then. is there any way you can move the center out or above the TV to test the sound and see if it changes? Also, any chance of hooking one of the other speakers to act as the center to see how it will sound in its place? I know this is only a temporary thing but maybe the center channel was damaged during the move.

I'll give swapping the speakers a shot just to see, but I don't recall anything unusual during sine wave sweeps going to each channel.

I could move the speaker out of the cabinet, but it will really mess with the flow of the design and make my wife upset. The whole point to the Standout Designs cabinet setup is the nice way the center channel fits into that shelf (she shelf is ported to the rear, btw).

My wife will be out of town for a several days coming up, so I'll have a bit more freedom than usual to play with settings soon.
post #20972 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

that argument you state comes from a mis-informed fact that power amps just add power at the higher end .
what I'm referring to is about the added dynamics a good audio power amp provides is the fact that they have large capacitors that provide high instantaneous current capability, which the AVR's can't provide as they don't any where near the capacitance levels the power amps have . Ever looked inside a Emotiva power amp the capacitors are the size of Pepsi soda cans .
Yeah, but those reserves are only needed to exceed normal capacity. Running below 1 Watt shouldn't require them at all.

But what you want are personal experience, not a science base, so here goes. I have swaped AVRs and external amps on my Klipschorns and have noticed no changes at medium volume.
post #20973 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Yeah, but those reserves are only needed to exceed normal capacity. Running below 1 Watt shouldn't require them at all.

But what you want are personal experience, not a science base, so here goes. I have swaped AVRs and external amps on my Klipschorns and have noticed no changes at medium volume.

With speakers that don't have large impedance swings that dip (much) lower than 4 Ohms, the Science backs up what you experienced--folks that have similar speakers who post otherwise, like having an external amp and there is nothing science or any of us are going to say that will change their mind. smile.gif

Insofar as Fast's speakers are concerned, they have been modified so I don't know if they dip below 4 Ohms...
Edited by Zen Traveler - 1/15/13 at 6:58am
post #20974 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Yeah, but those reserves are only needed to exceed normal capacity. Running below 1 Watt shouldn't require them at all.

But what you want are personal experience, not a science base, so here goes. I have swaped AVRs and external amps on my Klipschorns and have noticed no changes at medium volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

With speakers that don't have large impedance swings that dip (much) lower than 4 Ohms, the Science backs up what you experienced--folks that have similar speakers who post otherwise, like having an external amp and there is nothing science or any of us are going to say that will change their mind. smile.gif

Insofar as Fast's speakers are concerned, they have been modified so I don't know if they dip below 4 Ohms...
the guys like me who notice this degradation of SQ on flagship AVR's are all running 7 & 9 channels @ their speaker lower end roll off points .
When I ran 2 channels I never experienced degradation of SQ in music . now that I run 9 channel of the same &/or very similar speakers (think quite large ) even a flagship AVR can not provide any thing near the dynamics that my power amps provide in movies that demand instantaneous power swings due to explosions , gunshots , car crashes , ect . My system runs at higher than medium volumes but even at lower the a medium volume with 9 channels their still is a degraded SQ . I noticed the SQ degrading as I slowly added channels when I 1st went to build a 2 way system into a Home Theater system
post #20975 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalani View Post

I'll give swapping the speakers a shot just to see, but I don't recall anything unusual during sine wave sweeps going to each channel.

I could move the speaker out of the cabinet, but it will really mess with the flow of the design and make my wife upset. The whole point to the Standout Designs cabinet setup is the nice way the center channel fits into that shelf (she shelf is ported to the rear, btw).

My wife will be out of town for a several days coming up, so I'll have a bit more freedom than usual to play with settings soon.
You say your center in on a shelf ? by any chance is the speaker about 2 inches or more back from the edge of the shelf ? you will experiace huge differences from having back from the edge & at the edge . If the speaker is as I describe try moving the speaker so it hangs off the shelf's edge by 2"
when I was running both a RC-62 & RC-64 there was a extreme difference by just bringing the speakers outta the consuls shelves off the edge by a mere 2 to 3 inches . rerun your room correction software after you move the speaker smile.gif
a speaker placed back behind the shelf edge in a entertainment center shelf actually changes the design of the speaker & makes it less efficient .
post #20976 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post


the guys like me who notice this degradation of SQ on flagship AVR's are all running 7 & 9 channels @ their speaker lower end roll off points .

You and I had this discussion several years ago and I learned the flagship Onkyo is not the same as an upper-end Denon...That said, regardless of the speakers roll off point, if the impedance doesn't dip below 4 ohms at those frequencies and the AVR is equipped/rated to drive all channels within that specification adding external amps does not improve SQ...If you notice a difference then your speakers are dipping below 4 Ohms at those roll off points--Otoh, K-Horns, LaScalas and even Cornwalls wouldn't benefit from external amplification with an upper-end AVR regardless how many speakers they are driving unless it's in a huge room.
post #20977 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

You and I had this discussion several years ago and I learned the flagship Onkyo is not the same as an upper-end Denon...That said, regardless of the speakers roll off point, if the impedance doesn't dip below 4 ohms at those frequencies and the AVR is equipped/rated to drive all channels within that specification adding external amps does not improve SQ...If you notice a difference then your speakers are dipping below 4 Ohms at those roll off points--Otoh, K-Horns, LaScalas and even Cornwalls wouldn't benefit from external amplification with an upper-end AVR regardless how many speakers they are driving unless it's in a huge room.
26' x 22' room + @ the back of the room a dining room 16' x18' with multiple openings in both rooms .
post #20978 of 35176
In the summertime I more than doubled my available wattage with an amp upgrade. My speakers are the RF-3 line which I find are a little bit more harsh and revealing than the newer 82's.

My normal listening volume is usually no louder than -10db from reference. Currently I have no acoustic treatments and no subwoofer (sending full range to the fronts)

Before and after I heard no difference whatsoever in regards to clarity or "dynamics" (is it just me or do people just lazily use this word when they have no technical way to describe what they're hearing?)

My setup would probably show off the biggest difference between an integrated amp and a separate amp. Bright speakers, no subwoofer and no acoustic treatments.

At my listening levels I noticed no difference whatsoever.

There was a difference between MCACC and Audyssey XT32 in the lower frequencies due to better EQ, but clarity etc, no difference. I can even say I might prefer the pioneer sound with the brighter upper frequencies to the rolled off Audyssey EQ curve.

Now, if I was running the pioneer loud all channels driven, I could probably hear or maybe measure distortion using REW that might not exist with the more stout amp.
post #20979 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

In the summertime I more than doubled my available wattage with an amp upgrade. My speakers are the RF-3 line which I find are a little bit more harsh and revealing than the newer 82's.

My normal listening volume is usually no louder than -10db from reference. Currently I have no acoustic treatments and no subwoofer (sending full range to the fronts)

Before and after I heard no difference whatsoever in regards to clarity or "dynamics" (is it just me or do people just lazily use this word when they have no technical way to describe what they're hearing?)

My setup would probably show off the biggest difference between an integrated amp and a separate amp. Bright speakers, no subwoofer and no acoustic treatments.

At my listening levels I noticed no difference whatsoever.

There was a difference between MCACC and Audyssey XT32 in the lower frequencies due to better EQ, but clarity etc, no difference. I can even say I might prefer the pioneer sound with the brighter upper frequencies to the rolled off Audyssey EQ curve.

Now, if I was running the pioneer loud all channels driven, I could probably hear or maybe measure distortion using REW that might not exist with the more stout amp.
how many speaker are you running at a time ?
post #20980 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

how many speaker are you running at a time ?

Between 2 and 7 depending on content. The new amp is no slouch either, It's THX rated for 4 ohms at reference volume. The old one tested at 28 watts with 5 channels driven at 8 ohms, I didn't drive the old one to clipping, and the new one probably only offers another 4 or 5db headroom before clipping. An Emotiva amp at 200watts per channel would probably only offer another 1.5db headroom over my current amp before seing distortion spike.

With that said, driving the RF7's would introduce clipping earlier than mine, a 2.5 or 3.5ohm load would drain reserves quicker than other higher resistance speakers. I wouldn't play those speakers really loud without an amp stable below 4ohm.
post #20981 of 35176
Just to clarify my own situation. My AVR drives 4 easy--to-drive speakers. The mains are actually ran off an external amp, just because I have it. Listening to stereo, I never noticed a change between amps or AVRs. I never tried to run all six speakers of the AVR but did at one point run the side surrounds of the amp and the front three off of the AVR with no ill effect. Of course, for me reference is around -13 dB on the dial, so peaks of 5 Watts or so. Nothing to stain a system.
post #20982 of 35176
I'm going to call Klipsch and file a warranty claim on my crispy Quintet center. Are there any phrases or descriptions to either use OR avoid when going through the process? I don't want to get shut down based on a slip of the tongue.
post #20983 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdarkness View Post

I'm going to call Klipsch and file a warranty claim on my crispy Quintet center. Are there any phrases or descriptions to either use OR avoid when going through the process? I don't want to get shut down based on a slip of the tongue.
don't ever say you turned the volume up real high or high volume at all ! , do Not say you ever had AVR problems
post #20984 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdarkness View Post

I'm going to call Klipsch and file a warranty claim on my crispy Quintet center. Are there any phrases or descriptions to either use OR avoid when going through the process? I don't want to get shut down based on a slip of the tongue.

Tell them you are a regular poster on AVS Forum. Fwiw, I am one of the few people that had problems with customer service and they still satisfied my complaint.
post #20985 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post


What was it about the Denon AVR-4311ci that couldn't drive your Klipschorns efficiently?

Fwiw, I can see how the RF-7s (with their jagged response curve that dips below 3 ohms in certain frequencies) benefiting from an external amp, but your speakers are efficient top to bottom, are 8 Ohm rated, and don't have taxing impedance dips.

 

I run Khorn fronts, Belle center, Belle surrounds, and La Scalla rears, with KG4 wides and heights . . . with a sub with three internal each amplified woofers in a sub.

 

Adding the Phase Linear 400 opened up my front soundstage to hear instrument separation I never before heard.  There is more than one way to define headroom . . . especially since I am running a Heritage 11.1 (with 3 8" driven woofers in the sub), result of the eternal amp was to open up the soundstage, binging the woofers in the Khorns to life, and instrument separation and greater clarity and nuances of sound on the frontstage.  Real simple, adding the eternal amp on the 4311 in a Heritage 11.1 HT setup made a significantly higher audio quality experience.  No sense wasting an amp if I cannot hear a difference . . . but I do with great joy!

post #20986 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhetor View Post

I run Khorn fronts, Belle center, Belle surrounds, and La Scalla rears, with KG4 wides and heights . . . with a sub with three internal each amplified woofers in a sub.

Ok I have to say it, Oh My Gosh! We need to see some pictures of this setup for sure!!
post #20987 of 35176
Just a heads up on anyone wanting RF-82's II in NEW OPEN BOX. There is a vendor on Amazon that has them for 359.00 CHECK HERE
post #20988 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhetor View Post

I run Khorn fronts, Belle center, Belle surrounds, and La Scalla rears, with KG4 wides and heights . . . with a sub with three internal each amplified woofers in a sub.


eek.gifeek.gifeek.gifeek.gif

I am green with envy!
post #20989 of 35176
Ok. I posted a few pages back about my set up. Long story short, I had the Quitent 5.0s but wanted to upgrade the fronts. I bought a pair of Synergy 5.25" bookshelf speakers and replaced the two front Quintets with the Synergys. I still have the Quintet rears and center as well as a Synergy 10" sub (200 watt).

Overall, I do not think I am too impressed with the Synergys over the Quintets. Yes, a bit fuller, but for the price I am not sure it was worth it. I can return the Synergys to Amazon no problem.

I am considering upgrading to the RB-51 II Reference bookshelf speakers and building my system for the long(er) term around those. I can get the RB-51 IIs for $417 ( about $120 more to replace the Synergys). But, throughout all of this I now know I will need to get a larger center. I am thinking about the matching RC-52 II Reference center for $369 but for now, cannot afford both the bookshelf speakers and the center. I will keep the Quintet rears for now but eventually hope to upgrade those as well too, just not yet. I am happy with my sub.

Any advise on what to get first? Would the RC-52 II Reference center be too much to run with the 4 quintets (fronts, rears)? Any idea on the best way to do this?

TIA!
post #20990 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhetor View Post

I run Khorn fronts, Belle center, Belle surrounds, and La Scalla rears, with KG4 wides and heights . . . with a sub with three internal each amplified woofers in a sub.

...No sense wasting an amp if I cannot hear a difference . . . but I do with great joy!

You have an awesome setup and I agree if you hear a difference and are satisfied that is all that really matters...That said, if you are running an 11.1 setup don't you have to add an external amp to the AVR-4311ci?
post #20991 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew2323 View Post

Ok. I posted a few pages back about my set up. Long story short, I had the Quitent 5.0s but wanted to upgrade the fronts. I bought a pair of Synergy 5.25" bookshelf speakers and replaced the two front Quintets with the Synergys. I still have the Quintet rears and center as well as a Synergy 10" sub (200 watt).

Overall, I do not think I am too impressed with the Synergys over the Quintets. Yes, a bit fuller, but for the price I am not sure it was worth it. I can return the Synergys to Amazon no problem.

I am considering upgrading to the RB-51 II Reference bookshelf speakers and building my system for the long(er) term around those. I can get the RB-51 IIs for $417 ( about $120 more to replace the Synergys). But, throughout all of this I now know I will need to get a larger center. I am thinking about the matching RC-52 II Reference center for $369 but for now, cannot afford both the bookshelf speakers and the center. I will keep the Quintet rears for now but eventually hope to upgrade those as well too, just not yet. I am happy with my sub.

Any advise on what to get first? Would the RC-52 II Reference center be too much to run with the 4 quintets (fronts, rears)? Any idea on the best way to do this?

TIA!

Is there any way you could come up with $100 more and get the RB-61 II? In my experience with other speakers, a 5" driver for mains doesn't quite cut it. It just sounds thin to me, for lack of a better word. If you can swing the extra cash, I think the 61s will give you that performance leap you're looking for.
post #20992 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhetor View Post

I run Khorn fronts, Belle center, Belle surrounds, and La Scalla rears, with KG4 wides and heights . . . with 3 8" driven woofers in the sub.
Very Nice! Way overkill on surrounds and rears, but nice timbre matching! cool.gif
Sounds like you need a better sub? Can the 8 inchers keep up? wink.gif
post #20993 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhetor View Post

I run Khorn fronts, Belle center, Belle surrounds, and La Scalla rears, with KG4 wides and heights . . . with a sub with three internal each amplified woofers in a sub.

Adding the Phase Linear 400 opened up my front soundstage to hear instrument separation I never before heard.  There is more than one way to define headroom . . . especially since I am running a Heritage 11.1 (with 3 8" driven woofers in the sub), result of the eternal amp was to open up the soundstage, binging the woofers in the Khorns to life, and instrument separation and greater clarity and nuances of sound on the frontstage.  Real simple, adding the eternal amp on the 4311 in a Heritage 11.1 HT setup made a significantly higher audio quality experience.  No sense wasting an amp if I cannot hear a difference . . . but I do with great joy!
Yup same thing I experienced with my set-up ... believe me I'm very careful about my money I spend on my HT/audio gear , with the money i spend on a amp ,if they didn't make a noticeable difference they get sent back pronto . Over the years I sent back many a unit that didn't hold up to claims that they would improve my SQ

people just don't get it about how we are describing how a Good Responsive power amp does this . It's a thing that you just have to hear it to believe it
(pro style amps .. I sent them back as well )
post #20994 of 35176
I suggest anyone who is considering an amp, level match it to the AVR at the volume you want to listen and see if you can tell a difference...Fwiw, I asked a couple of years ago how many people who had amps had done this and got no positive replies which surprised me. If your speakers aren't clipping, that really is the only way to tell if you need one.
post #20995 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

You say your center in on a shelf ? by any chance is the speaker about 2 inches or more back from the edge of the shelf ? you will experiace huge differences from having back from the edge & at the edge . If the speaker is as I describe try moving the speaker so it hangs off the shelf's edge by 2"
when I was running both a RC-62 & RC-64 there was a extreme difference by just bringing the speakers outta the consuls shelves off the edge by a mere 2 to 3 inches . rerun your room correction software after you move the speaker smile.gif
a speaker placed back behind the shelf edge in a entertainment center shelf actually changes the design of the speaker & makes it less efficient .

The center channel is about 11" deep. It's sitting right at the front edge of the shelf in a cabinet I built which was modeled after the Standout Design Horizon N702 XL cabinets, so 22" deep x 72" wide, so it's on a ported shelf with I'd say 8 or 9" of clearance behind it:



Mine:



I have pulled the speaker forward to so it's hanging about 1/2" forward of the front lip of the shelf.

If I had do, I could add more ventilation to the back panel than just the three holes (just means pulling out the hole saw again and adding some more holes, or enlarging the existing ones), so the shelf breathes more in the back.
post #20996 of 35176
Hello
i am looking for suggestions on rear speakers.

Here is my setup

Denon 1613 receiver

klipsch KF-28 front left and right

klipsch Center and sub

I am wondering should i buy the actual surround speakers that match everything or would it sound better to use the klipsch KF-28 as rear speakers also.
post #20997 of 35176
smile.gif
post #20998 of 35176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Tell them you are a regular poster on AVS Forum. Fwiw, I am one of the few people that had problems with customer service and they still satisfied my complaint.

So, something along the lines of "I'm a regular poster on AVSForum and I noticed I'm not the only one who has had problems with the center?" If they ask what it's doing just say on some mid-range voices it sounds almost blown and is more noticeable on male voices than in other material?

As I said before, I'm not sure how to go about the whole call process.
post #20999 of 35176
I say I hear crackle & it came on suddenly
post #21000 of 35176
I've heard that before A snap, crackle and pop. Rice Crispies in the morning
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