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Klipsch owner thread - Page 773

post #23161 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

I disagree, If a ported enclosure is tuned for 24hz, and you load up the room with 4 of them in corners, even with a 24db/octave slope, you're going to get good extension down below the tuning point without too much distortion. The difference between 1 cheap sub and 4 of those subs is 12db. Add corner loading/room gain and you' re looking at a good amount of headroom = Less port noise at the tuning frequency, and less distortion from the amps.

What I meant was that the relative SPL/distortion is always going to be there between low 20's and low 30's when you use a cheap sub. By the time you hit audible levels at the low 20's, the low 30's may have gone over the reference level? If you want to listen only to the low 20's then it is ok smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Will 4 PSW505's or 2 RW12d's extend down like a Captivator or Submersive ? Hell no, Even after EQ, But I bet down to 20hz at reference level or below they would offer a better waterfall graph, for $600 or 700 versus $2000.

That is what I already said. You just cant get the same low end extension just by using multiple cheap subs as you can get with a more expensive sub. Otherwise companies like JTR, SVS etc will have to pack up and leave.
Sure you can buy multiple Ford Escapes for the price of a Ferrari but Ford Escape is no Ferrari.
post #23162 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

What I meant was that the relative SPL/distortion is always going to be there between low 20's and low 30's when you use a cheap sub. By the time you hit audible levels at the low 20's, the low 30's may have gone over the reference level? If you want to listen only to the low 20's then it is ok smile.gif
That is what I already said. You just cant get the same low end extension just by using multiple cheap subs as you can get with a more expensive sub. Otherwise companies like JTR, SVS etc will have to pack up and leave.
Sure you can buy multiple Ford Escapes for the price of a Ferrari but Ford Escape is no Ferrari.
I guess it is impossible to get to 10Hz if we were to have 4x Rythmik FV15HP or SVS PB12Plus??
post #23163 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post


Sure you can buy multiple Ford Escapes for the price of a Ferrari but Ford Escape is no Ferrari.

That is possibly the worst analogy. Totally different. You can't drive multiple vehicles at once. Subs you can. And i believe that's the point trying to be made. Multiple subs will offer the best response. Of course, who wouldn't take the higher end sub though.
post #23164 of 35257
Lower(extension) and louder(multiple subs and/or turning up the volume) are two different things.
Edited by kemiza - 7/5/13 at 8:51pm
post #23165 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jconjason View Post

...i believe that's the point trying to be made. Multiple subs will offer the best response. Of course, who wouldn't take the higher end sub though.

Fwiw, I think the point that is trying to be made is that multiple subs are beneficial in smoothing room modes and a single sub of higher quality will go lower--It's up to the purchaser to decide which option gives the "best response" for what they are looking for.

Of course one would take two higher quality subs over two lower ones that don't hit as low, but sometimes budgeting factors (and room layout) need to be considered and when doing so, a single harder hitting sub that goes lower may be more attractive.
post #23166 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

a single sub of higher quality will go lower--
Not necessarily. As often as not the difference between a lower and higher priced sub isn't response, it's output. It's not at all difficult to find a less expensive sub that will go just as low as a more expensive sub, just not as loud.
Let's assume that Sub A can handle 300w without the driver exceeding its excursion limit, while Sub B can handle 600w. That gives Sub B a 3dB advantage in output. But two Sub A will have 6dB more output than one, because output isn't just about watts, it's also about system radiating efficiency, which doubles when using two subs versus one. That means two Sub A will go 3dB louder than one Sub B.
In short, one may use two less expensive subs that will go not only as low as but also louder than one more expensive sub, and give the benefit of smoothing room modes as well.
post #23167 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


In short, one may use two less expensive subs that will go not only as low as but also louder than one more expensive sub, and give the benefit of smoothing room modes as well.

Of course I am not disagreeing with your post and my only counter is that two less expensive subs don't always go louder and/or lower than an expensive sub and price isn't always the determining factor (but usually is in the consumer market).
post #23168 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

my only counter is that two less expensive subs don't always go louder and/or lower than an expensive sub
Of course not, but the point is that they can.
Quote:
price isn't always the determining factor (but usually is in the consumer market).
True, because the average consumer looks at what matters least, the price, and not what matters most, which is actual measured response and measured maximum output. Unfortunately few manufacturers reveal that information, and many outright fudge big time with the specs that they do provide, but there are sources like data-bass.com where one can get accurate information.
post #23169 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

What I meant was that the relative SPL/distortion is always going to be there between low 20's and low 30's when you use a cheap sub. By the time you hit audible levels at the low 20's, the low 30's may have gone over the reference level? If you want to listen only to the low 20's then it is ok smile.gif
That is what I already said. You just cant get the same low end extension just by using multiple cheap subs as you can get with a more expensive sub. Otherwise companies like JTR, SVS etc will have to pack up and leave.
Sure you can buy multiple Ford Escapes for the price of a Ferrari but Ford Escape is no Ferrari.

The analogy does make a valid point nonetheless. If you're spending the same amount getting multiple cheaper subs as it costs for a single Captivator, Seaton etc. There is definitely an argument to buy just one higher performance sub as multiples may not give the massive output/extension when being pushed. Just one Captivator can be pushed really, really hard and never show any sign of waning whilst giving pure, chiseled 3D like bass and bring the room to life. In short you KNOW what you're going to get. In the two listening positions, on the one couch, my dual Klipsch KSW 300's did a great job but one Cap provides more coverage over the two positions and much greater output. In the end when you are turning up the volume the Cap keeps on giving well beyond what anyone would call reasonable listening levels and leaves you gobsmacked at its performance. Port tune is around 20Hz on the 2400 Cap but there is something going on below that which is not measurable but....felt which I think multiple, cheaper subs would find hard to reproduce. My dual KSW's were great but I dont think it would matter how many I had they wouldnt excite me like one Cap does. I have a full set of Klipsch speakers in my home theatre and absolutely love them so please dont write me off as a "JTR fanboy" altogether. Just sharing my experience relative to whats been a great topic within this thread. IMO if you have the ability to wait and save hard you will be rewarded if you buy a beast from JTR or Seaton. If not, plenty of enjoyment to be had with less expensive subs but I would recommend steering clear of Seaton, JTR demos as ignorance is bliss.
Edited by AJ72 - 7/5/13 at 6:14am
post #23170 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

It will be interesting to hear your results.

I used to have three Academy's.  I called an out of state Klipsch dealer and asked what he would recommend as a center and effects for the LaScalas.  He said the Academy so I said send me three of them along with a Yamaha HT unit.  He later told me he thought it was a BS phone prank, until the credit card was given to him and it went through.  Said he had never had a sale so quick & easy.

At the time, I didn't know how badly the Academy would be drown out by the LaScala and in hindsight, it was a pretty epic failure.

That said...  I thought my setup was pretty crafty.

You know how large a LaScala is.....how do you 'float' a speaker six feet above a LaScala?

I had some plywood cut that was as wide as the base of the LaScala but, extended out the back maybe six inches or so.

To this, I attached a wall sconce, used to hold 3/4" iron pipe.  I screwed this down to the extension of the plywood and then if I recall (this was about 1994), I put a nipple.  Attached to the nipple, I put a "T" and on the other side of the T-fitting, I put a 5 1/2 or so piece of iron pipe.  (I might mention that I had all this pipe & fittings painted a hunter green)

On top of this pipe, I had another T fitting followed by another nipple and another wall sconce.  This upper wall sconce was then attached to another piece of stained oak plywood.  I had some half -round moulding around this piece of plywood so the Academy speaker would fit nestled on the platform and had a raised edge on all sides.

I ran my wire into the bottom T-fitting, up the pole, out the upper T-fitting and into the Academy.  No matter how far from the wall I had the LaSCala, no matter which direction I turned it, I would always have the Academy at the right height and pointed in the correct direction.

Gotta say, it worked like a charm.  The base plywood had a couple screws to attach it to the bottom of the LaScala and the weight of the LaScala kept everything from falling over.


Cool idea, my Brother had LaScala's back then with a Sunfire Sub...... IIRC you use to have a sub that is folded horn bass bin. You do still have the 402's right?
post #23171 of 35257
Guys, I need a definitive answer on this.

RF-62 II/RC-62 II in front. Room is fairly small and the rears will be close to sitting position.

1.What will sound better RB-61 II or RS-52 II?

2.I can get a great deal on the older RB-61 , will it much of a diffference between the newer RB-62 II?

Need to buy soon.
post #23172 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Guys, I need a definitive answer on this.

RF-62 II/RC-62 II in front. Room is fairly small and the rears will be close to sitting position.

1.What will sound better RB-61 II or RS-52 II?

2.I can get a great deal on the older RB-61 , will it much of a diffference between the newer RB-62 II?

Need to buy soon.

There is no definitive answer to your first question because both could work and my guess is there isn't much difference in the RB-62 and the newer version.

{Note: I sit close to my surrounds and prefer a direct radiating speaker--Others will tell you to go for the WDST model...For the most part it's a preference thing, but both speakers should/could work.}
post #23173 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Guys, I need a definitive answer on this.

RF-62 II/RC-62 II in front. Room is fairly small and the rears will be close to sitting position.

1.What will sound better RB-61 II or RS-52 II?

2.I can get a great deal on the older RB-61 , will it much of a diffference between the newer RB-62 II?

Need to buy soon.
Get the RS52II's. I had the RB51II's before I stepped up to the RS model. The RS models are better for surround dutys IMO.
post #23174 of 35257
See? Two different opinions. smile.gif
post #23175 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Guys, I need a definitive answer on this.

RF-62 II/RC-62 II in front. Room is fairly small and the rears will be close to sitting position.

1.What will sound better RB-61 II or RS-52 II?
small room, speakers close to your ears the RB61 will work the best when aimed at the listening position .
post #23176 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

small room, speakers close to your ears the RB61 will work the best when aimed at the listening position .
Move to a bigger place wont have to upgrade and the RS models for surround are better lol. Sorry slappy but they are better but seeing as you dont have them your saying their not. Cmon man just admit it. Your in denial hah
post #23177 of 35257
Ok...i think im going RB-61.
One more observation...most speakers seem to use tweaters for high tones, like glass breaking. It appears that the klipsch tweaters are used for much more. Or am i hearing it wrong, just seems that even some of the voice elements come from the tweater.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
post #23178 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post


Cool idea, my Brother had LaScala's back then with a Sunfire Sub...... IIRC you use to have a sub that is folded horn bass bin. You do still have the 402's right?

Yes, I still have the 402's.  The only sub's I've ever had, I have today....a pair of Danley DTS-10's.  I never felt the need for a subwoofer and still don't feel any 'need' for one but, they sure can be fun!

post #23179 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Ok...i think im going RB-61.
One more observation...most speakers seem to use tweaters for high tones, like glass breaking. It appears that the klipsch tweaters are used for much more. Or am i hearing it wrong, just seems that even some of the voice elements come from the tweater.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
the RF series uses a 2 way system & the horn does double duty as both a tweeter & mid-range
post #23180 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by cchunter View Post

Sorry slappy but they are better but seeing as you dont have them your saying their not. Cmon man just admit it. Your in denial hah
No denial at all cool.gif
I have had both RS & RB's & like a direct radiator best
horns are meant to be pointed at your ears & not bounced off the walls like in the RS line .
I now have 5 CornScala (2 way ) as mains ,surrounds , center
my heights & wides are a hybrid CornScala / Heresy (2 way as well ) with a 12" woofer (instead of a 15") with the cabinets tuned to 32 with a custom crossovers made for all 9 speakers
the 9 speakers all have the same 2" TI diaphragm Compression Pro Style driver (Italian ) with matching hand build elliptical Tractrix wood horns .
I don't run backs wink.gif
post #23181 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

No denial at all cool.gif
I have had both RS & RB's & like a direct radiator best
horns are meant to be pointed at your ears & not bounced off the walls like in the RS line .
I now have 5 CornScala (2 way ) as mains ,surrounds , center
my heights & wides are a hybrid CornScala / Heresy (2 way as well ) with a 12" woofer (instead of a 15") with the cabinets tuned to 32 with a custom crossovers made for all 9 speakers
the 9 speakers all have the same 2" TI diaphragm Compression Pro Style driver (Italian ) with matching hand build elliptical Tractrix wood horns .
I don't run backs wink.gif
Nice rig
post #23182 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by coytee View Post

Yes, I still have the 402's.  The only sub's I've ever had, I have today....a pair of Danley DTS-10's.  I never felt the need for a subwoofer and still don't feel any 'need' for one but, they sure can be fun!

Sub's are awsome for HT Bluray movies. I played my Cornwalls without a sub for music for 30 years. smile.gif want more bass, move the system to a smaller room and turn it up. biggrin.gif

I would not be happy with your equipment and not being in a home so you can really use it.( I would be happy owning it smile.gif ) DTS-10 Subs ROCK . Too expensive for my music budget right now. The down side of being retired now.

I have to make do with I have or sell a different toy to upgrade. Right now I am happy with I do have. My small den makes my meger system sound great. The member in Arlington,Tx Pm me and said we can come

over and he will play his 402 system. I think he has the folded horn bass bins for subs and Cornwall for rears. WOW. Hope you had a Fun 4th as we have the grand Kids and we all watched the fireworks last night. Our Camera hobby hurts my music hobby.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bysheribeari/sets/72157634497534098/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bysheribeari/sets/72157624302551709/
Edited by Louis Bartay - 7/5/13 at 5:40pm
post #23183 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

What I meant was that the relative SPL/distortion is always going to be there between low 20's and low 30's when you use a cheap sub. By the time you hit audible levels at the low 20's, the low 30's may have gone over the reference level? If you want to listen only to the low 20's then it is ok smile.gif
That is what I already said. You just cant get the same low end extension just by using multiple cheap subs as you can get with a more expensive sub. Otherwise companies like JTR, SVS etc will have to pack up and leave.
Sure you can buy multiple Ford Escapes for the price of a Ferrari but Ford Escape is no Ferrari.

Untrue. Distortion rises in a ported design when

a) The driver is being pushed to it's xmax and beyond, mechanical and heat related issues
b) When notes are being played close to or below the tuning point, causing port noise (air velocity at the port)
c) when the amp is being asked to produce too much power for too long.

All of these issues are minimal/undetectable at certain SPL and manifest at higher SPL's. So if you're able to cut down the workload of each sub/amp to 25% of what it was being asked of before, you aren't going to observe meaningful distortion. And with EQ, you can trade some unneeded headroom for bass extension.

Companies like JTR, Seaton, Rythmik etc won't be losing business because

-People take pride in owning quality products. People with a $2000 budget for a subwoofer probably aren't looking to buy a bunch of cheap Polk subs.
-Most People don't want a subwoofer in every corner
-Most people don't want to go the DIY route

I used multiple cheap subs to get extension down to 10hz (in room). Each was tuned for 15hz, and with some EQ Im -3db @ 10hz. It's not a far stretch to assume that a sub with 24hz tuning could get down into the high teens if you had 4 of them and some EQ boost. The downside, 4 subs in a room! 4 sets of wires going all over etc etc. In my setup I now have these two goofy columns taking up floor space, and I don't have much choice as to where to put them. Luckily the spots I can fit them give a fairly good frequency response.
post #23184 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue13x View Post

Ok...i think im going RB-61.
One more observation...most speakers seem to use tweaters for high tones, like glass breaking. It appears that the klipsch tweaters are used for much more. Or am i hearing it wrong, just seems that even some of the voice elements come from the tweater.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
the RF series uses a 2 way system & the horn does double duty as both a tweeter & mid-range

Interesting. Didnt know that. It became quite obvious that much more than just bell and glass breaking sounds were coming from the top (tweaters). I dont think I've heard so much dialogue sounds come from the tweaters. Also helps with that characteristic klisch bright sound.

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
post #23185 of 35257
Awesome Scooter!!!
post #23186 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Untrue. Distortion rises in a ported design when

a) The driver is being pushed to it's xmax and beyond, mechanical and heat related issues
b) When notes are being played close to or below the tuning point, causing port noise (air velocity at the port)
c) when the amp is being asked to produce too much power for too long.

All of these issues are minimal/undetectable at certain SPL and manifest at higher SPL's. So if you're able to cut down the workload of each sub/amp to 25% of what it was being asked of before, you aren't going to observe meaningful distortion. And with EQ, you can trade some unneeded headroom for bass extension.

Companies like JTR, Seaton, Rythmik etc won't be losing business because

-People take pride in owning quality products. People with a $2000 budget for a subwoofer probably aren't looking to buy a bunch of cheap Polk subs.
-Most People don't want a subwoofer in every corner
-Most people don't want to go the DIY route

I used multiple cheap subs to get extension down to 10hz (in room). Each was tuned for 15hz, and with some EQ Im -3db @ 10hz. It's not a far stretch to assume that a sub with 24hz tuning could get down into the high teens if you had 4 of them and some EQ boost. The downside, 4 subs in a room! 4 sets of wires going all over etc etc. In my setup I now have these two goofy columns taking up floor space, and I don't have much choice as to where to put them. Luckily the spots I can fit them give a fairly good frequency response.

I guess you are missing my main point of view i.e relative SPL difference (if not distortion) between low 20's and higher bass frequencies. It is not just about getting low extension. There should also be audible output.

You cant make the response flat below 30Hz just by adding cheap subs that have low SPL below 30Hz. We all know that it is not a good idea to bump up the dips using EQ too much. May be 2-3 db. While the SPL in the 20's will add up when using multiple cheap subs, so does the SPL at higher frequencies. So there is always going to be that relative audible difference. Where as a more expensive sub can be flat all the way down to the 20's or upper teens. It doesn't have to be a $2000 sub. 2 SVS PB12-NSD should get the job done. The only reason I dont even have a single SVS PB12-NSD is the weight! Weight is the reason I am getting rid of my KG 4.5's and 5.2's. I have had my KG5.2's on ebay for more than a month now and no response locally.
post #23187 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

I guess you are missing my main point of view i.e relative SPL difference (if not distortion) between low 20's and higher bass frequencies. It is not just about getting low extension. There should also be audible output.

You cant make the response flat below 30Hz just by adding cheap subs that have low SPL below 30Hz. We all know that it is not a good idea to bump up the dips using EQ too much. May be 2-3 db. While the SPL in the 20's will add up when using multiple cheap subs, so does the SPL at higher frequencies. So there is always going to be that relative audible difference. Where as a more expensive sub can be flat all the way down to the 20's or upper teens. It doesn't have to be a $2000 sub. 2 SVS PB12-NSD should get the job done. The only reason I dont even have a single SVS PB12-NSD is the weight! Weight is the reason I am getting rid of my KG 4.5's and 5.2's. I have had my KG5.2's on ebay for more than a month now and no response locally.
If you are worried about weight then look at getting the SVS PC12-NSD's them being cylinders they are light in weight & best of all they have a way smaller foot print , Also the cylinder down firing design is more efficient . I have 2 of them & they more than pressurize my room , to the point that I can pop nails outta the sheet rock wink.gif
they are quite easy to move by tilting on the bottom edge & rolling them
For the DIYers then a Sono tube sub tongue.gif
post #23188 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

If you are worried about weight then look at getting the SVS PC12-NSD's them being cylinders they are light in weight & best of all they have a way smaller foot print , Also the cylinder down firing design is more efficient . I have 2 of them & they more than pressurize my room , to the point that I can pop nails outta the sheet rock wink.gif
they are quite easy to move by tilting on the bottom edge & rolling them
For the DIYers then a Sono tube sub tongue.gif

Even my PC13-Ultra is easy to roll around.
post #23189 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

Even my PC13-Ultra is easy to roll around.

All of these SVS subs listed are about what Mupi KG Klipsch speakers weigh. I did not want to flame anyone but after 40 years of buying/sell/trading speakers etc I have found you get what you pay for.
The Kg Klipsch line was a less expensive series(notice I did Not say Cheep) trying to get around the cost of a LaScala or Cornwall and Klipsch stopped production after two or three years.The just did not sound as accurate as a LaScala etc, the reason they WILL take longer to sell(depending on your asking price). LaScala or Cornwalls are still in production after 30 years. My older brother had KG 5.2 for about 6 months(decent sounding 2 ways) and it took him weeks to sell them. They just were not a accurate as the Bigger 3 way Heritage Series. The same goes with subs, you want a sub that digs DEEP you are going to pay for it cost and in weight. My Cornwalls are 90 pounds each and in the last 30 plus years of owning them I have moved them 3 three times (different homes I owned) After I placed them in the corners I never had to pick them up again. Subs ..... yes you have to move them around in a room to find the sweet spot. My friend has a SVS PB Ultra 13 and it takes both of us to pick it up(Awsome Sub). But after he found where he liked it it has not moved. We used some piano dolleys (carpeted) to move then aroud his large game room. On a wood floor etc place them on a strip of old carpet and pull them around,still not easy if you are older and not a Big person. Beig retired has it draw back... I can't afford a SVS or a Danley DTS 10 WOW what a sub.
post #23190 of 35257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post

All of these SVS subs listed are about what Mupi KG Klipsch speakers weigh. I did not want to flame anyone but after 40 years of buying/sell/trading speakers etc I have found you get what you pay for.
The Kg Klipsch line was a less expensive series(notice I did Not say Cheep) trying to get around the cost of a LaScala or Cornwall and Klipsch stopped production after two or three years.The just did not sound as accurate as a LaScala etc, the reason they WILL take longer to sell(depending on your asking price). LaScala or Cornwalls are still in production after 30 years. My older brother had KG 5.2 for about 6 months(decent sounding 2 ways) and it took him weeks to sell them. They just were not a accurate as the Bigger 3 way Heritage Series. The same goes with subs, you want a sub that digs DEEP you are going to pay for it cost and in weight. My Cornwalls are 90 pounds each and in the last 30 plus years of owning them I have moved them 3 three times (different homes I owned) After I placed them in the corners I never had to pick them up again. Subs ..... yes you have to move them around in a room to find the sweet spot. My friend has a SVS PB Ultra 13 and it takes both of us to pick it up(Awsome Sub). But after he found where he liked it it has not moved. We used some piano dolleys (carpeted) to move then aroud his large game room. On a wood floor etc place them on a strip of old carpet and pull them around,still not easy if you are older and not a Big person. Beig retired has it draw back... I can't afford a SVS or a Danley DTS 10 WOW what a sub.

When I first bought my Chorus II's, I bought a hand truck. Best $30 I ever spent. Moves my speakers and amp easily. Came in real handy when I bought my La Scala's.
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