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Klipsch owner thread - Page 776

post #23251 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

What would people prefer as mains, RF-52 or RB-61?

I would find someone with both speakers and....Wait--That's you! In that case I would switch them around and see what you think and then report back. smile.gif
post #23252 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by auceny View Post

What would people prefer as mains, RF-52 or RB-61?

I would use the 52's as mains and the 61's as surround backs.
post #23253 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

I would use the 52's as mains and the 61's as surround backs.
That's what I'm doing now. My plan is to find a good deal on 51's or rs41/42 to use instead though. So then I could use either the 52 or 61 as mains and sell the other. Probably stick with the 52 so I don't need stands. Was curious if people would say 100% one way or the other but since that's not the case I'm not too worried.

I'll compare a bit. Would you pair the 61's with a RC-52 or 62?
Edited by auceny - 7/9/13 at 11:37am
post #23254 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Can someone give me their thoughts on changing out my Klipsch RF-3/RC-3 front stage for Heresy II's ? I'm going to start building a false wall with a transparent screen, so I'd like to go with 3 identical speakers across the front...

.

Have you heard the Heresies before?

I have F,C,L Heresy II, AND Surround also Heresy II, but, NO experience with the RF-3/RC-3. Soon as I find s good deal on another pair, they will replace kg3 as Heights, too.
post #23255 of 35233
A common misconception is that separate amp will magically bring more power and help us hear dead people that we not heard before on our system. The main problem using an amp with the AVR as a pre-pro or pre-amp is that the AVR pre-out voltage at moderate listening levels (where distortion is less) is way too low to get much juice out of the amp.

AVR can only give a max of some 1-1.2V at the pre-outs (there are some exceptions like one Marantz AVR) and that too at max volume with nothing but distortion. The sensitivity of many amps is like 1.5V. High power amps like WIRED 4 SOUND is even worse at 2.8V. So when you drive these amps with an AVR, you are only getting a small fraction of the amp's peak output. Hence most people dont notice a significant difference when using an amp with AVR as pre-pro. You really have to feed more voltage to the amp with less distortion in order to extract all the juice from the amp.

The analog pre-amps boast a pre-out voltage of 6-9V. I have tried the Emotiva USP-1 pre-amp along with the Rotel RB-1080 to drive my Magnepan MG12's and I just could not play them loud. So take those claims of 6-9V with a grain of salt.
post #23256 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

A common misconception is that separate amp will magically bring more power and help us hear dead people that we not heard before on our system. The main problem using an amp with the AVR as a pre-pro or pre-amp is that the AVR pre-out voltage at moderate listening levels (where distortion is less) is way too low to get much juice out of the amp.

AVR can only give a max of some 1-1.2V at the pre-outs (there are some exceptions like one Marantz AVR) and that too at max volume with nothing but distortion. The sensitivity of many amps is like 1.5V. High power amps like WIRED 4 SOUND is even worse at 2.8V. So when you drive these amps with an AVR, you are only getting a small fraction of the amp's peak output. Hence most people dont notice a significant difference when using an amp with AVR as pre-pro. You really have to feed more voltage to the amp with less distortion in order to extract all the juice from the amp.

The analog pre-amps boast a pre-out voltage of 6-9V. I have tried the Emotiva USP-1 pre-amp along with the Rotel RB-1080 to drive my Magnepan MG12's and I just could not play them loud. So take those claims of 6-9V with a grain of salt.

Thanks I will look at the specs for my Yamaha RX-V1900 and see what they are and try to find a external amp that matches it.

I hope the Emotiva 200X5 will match up to my Yamaha AVR OK. Thanks again. Good Information as I see a lot of members adding the XPA-5 200X5
to their Yamaha AVR for 5.1 HT use, but they were different models from mine.

EDIT
I looked on the Emotiva site for the XPA-5 and I don't see the input specs you are talking about?

I looked in my Yamaha RX-V1900 owners manual

Rated Output Voltage/Output Impedance
Pre Out 1.0 V/1.2K ohm
Edited by Louis Bartay - 7/9/13 at 1:31pm
post #23257 of 35233
Most likely it is rated at 1 or 1.2V. This is pretty much standard. Even the high end AVR's/pre-pros offer the same i.e 1-1.2V. And that is at full volume with a lot of distortion. Like I mentioned before, at moderate listening volumes you may only get like 0.6V. You can multiply 0.6V by the amp gain to get the voltage out of the amp. Emotiva amps have unusually high gain like 32 (not DB). So 32*0.6= 19.2V. That gives a whopping 46W with a 8ohm load smile.gif No wonder people don't notice much difference with a separate amp and AVR as pre-pro. Don't believe those who make euphoric claims that they hear things they never heard before when they added a separate amp and that the bass is deeper and tighter. It is all in their head. Your brain wants you to hear new things just because you spent on a new amp smile.gif

I also tried the Emotiva UPA-2 (older model) 2ch amp with my RB-81's driven using the Yamaha RX-V663 as pre-pro. Absolutely no difference.

You can try a bump box like Samson to bump up the pre-out voltage from the AVR. I tried this with the Rotel RB-1080, Yamaha RX-V663 and I could play my Magnepans louder. It basically bumps up the AVR pre-out voltage by a few db. Though I didn't hear a lot of distortion, I didn't like the idea of using a $50 bump box on a $1200 speaker. More cheaper devices in the loop leads to more noise/distortion.
post #23258 of 35233
I have a KL-650 and two KS525 and I absolutely love them, not much out there that can pack the same punch they do
post #23259 of 35233
MUPI I emailed Emotiva and asked these questions about the XPA-5. Waiting for a reply. As you can see from my signature my Cornwalls are easy to drive so playing louder is not a problem my Yamaha is rated a bit higher then one you listed WPC. I just wanted a external amp with more WPC so I did not have to drive the AVR amps so hard on Bluray movies...... heat. I installed a fan at rear of my cabinet shelf the AVR sets on. And it has 6" of open space above it for venting. I had a Onyo TX-SR805 HD AVR 140X7 that set in the same shelf and it got SOOO hot after two Bluray movies at 90DB it worried me....well it fried HDMI parts several times in the 18 months I had it. After warranty ran out and it stoped working again I sold it for parts and purchased another Yamaha AVR the 2009 RX-V1900HD 7.1 130X7(I know these amps don't do this when all are on). I have 2004 Yamaha RX-V2400 120X7 non HDMI or HD audio decoders or it would still be in the den for HT use. I use it in the bedroom system for movies andit has never had a problem.
post #23260 of 35233
Amps give headroom that most avrs can not. Headroom is one of the biggest keys to great sound in power,speakers, and subs. At 80-100wx5 most avrs are being pushed pretty hard or out of gas. Where as a nice 200wx5 amp is only running at half power. Really dont need to be an audio genius to see why one might sound better than another

.
Upa2 (125x2) is not that much more powerfull than a big avr (with only 2ch running). So im not surprised it didnt sound better.
post #23261 of 35233
Sure but if you dont provide the amp enough voltage, you are not going to get much out of it. That was my main point. With an AVR as a pre-out, you are not going to be providing high distortion free voltage (from the pre-outs) to the amp and so you are not going to be generating that head room you need.

Emotiva amps are very unusual to have a gain of 32 (not DB). Most amp only have a gain of 27-28 which is not a lot considering the fact that the pre-out voltage of the AVR is like 0.6-0.7V (without distortion). If you use a pre-pro/pre-amp that provides 6V or even 2 or 3V, then you will generate plenty of head room from the amp.

There was one Marantz AVR that measured a whopping 6V at the pre-out. Cant recall the model. Even the dedicated pre-pros by Integra only top at 1.2V. High power amp like WIRED 4 SOUND with a sensitivity of 2.8V and low gain is such a mismatch for AVRs that it is just a waste of money to use such amps with AVR's. People dont realize this thing about pre-out voltage and expect that adding an amp will magically make everything better.
post #23262 of 35233
BTW an amp is not going to make the sound different. it just makes things louder and at higher volumes the distortion will be less if you feed distortion free input voltage. In other words there is no coloration added to the sound. If you feed enough distortion free voltage, you get enough distortion free output. People equate louder as better sound. It is better as it is distortion free, provided the input voltage is also distortion free. Garbage in, amplified garbage out smile.gif You are not going to get distortion free pre-out voltage from an AVR at high volumes. So using an AVR as a pre-pro with an amp and cranking up the volume is actually detrimental to the sound. Just my 2c's
post #23263 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post

MUPI I emailed Emotiva and asked these questions about the XPA-5. Waiting for a reply. As you can see from my signature my Cornwalls are easy to drive so playing louder is not a problem my Yamaha is rated a bit higher then one you listed WPC. I just wanted a external amp with more WPC so I did not have to drive the AVR amps so hard on Bluray movies...... heat. I installed a fan at rear of my cabinet shelf the AVR sets on. And it has 6" of open space above it for venting. I had a Onyo TX-SR805 HD AVR 140X7 that set in the same shelf and it got SOOO hot after two Bluray movies at 90DB it worried me....well it fried HDMI parts several times in the 18 months I had it. After warranty ran out and it stoped working again I sold it for parts and purchased another Yamaha AVR the 2009 RX-V1900HD 7.1 130X7(I know these amps don't do this when all are on). I have 2004 Yamaha RX-V2400 120X7 non HDMI or HD audio decoders or it would still be in the den for HT use. I use it in the bedroom system for movies andit has never had a problem.

The WPC of the amp is not the output you are always going to get. The amp like WIRED 4 SOUND could be rated as 1000 WPC but you also have to feed it 2.8V (input sensitivity) to get that 1000WPC based on its gain. If you feed it like 0.6V (mostly from an AVR at moderate volume with low distortion), then you are only getting a fraction of the full power. That may still be plenty compared to the power of AVR. But that amp also costs like $2000. If the amp is rated at some 200 WPC, then you only get a very small fraction as output when you feed it 0.6V and so you may not notice much difference at all.

It is not the WPC of the amp that you have to always look at. Look at the input sensitivity and the gain as that determines how much power you will get from the amp when you feed it the pre-out from the AVR. Amps manufacturers will never tell you this. They just sell you an amp based on its output rating, which you seldom get, unless you have a good pre-pro/pre-amp that has a high pre-out voltage (with low distortion)
post #23264 of 35233
Also keep in mind that the difference between 100W and 200W is not a whole lot when you compare the increase in the volume or loudness that you get when you double the power.
post #23265 of 35233
Nice theory you got Mupi , But I don't agree
And I am not gonna argue with you about your above statements that you repeat every time the subject comes up .
my amps work better for me than what my AVR will do without biggrin.gif
post #23266 of 35233
I agree with everything Mupi says.

If I wanted to add an external amp, I wouldn't be looking to double the power. That gives me 3db extra headroom. Thats not really a lot. I would be looking for a LOT more power, and I would be using "pro audio" PA amps, with adjustable gains, that are stable down to 2 ohms.

You could also run speakers with less impedance to get more power from the amps.
post #23267 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Nice theory you got Mupi , But I don't agree
And I am not gonna argue with you about your above statements that you repeat every time the subject comes up .
my amps work better for me than what my AVR will do without biggrin.gif

I agree with Fastslappy to disagree with Mupi.

Not all watts are created the same. Not all amps sound the same.
post #23268 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

I agree with everything Mupi says.

If I wanted to add an external amp, I wouldn't be looking to double the power. That gives me 3db extra headroom. Thats not really a lot. I would be looking for a LOT more power, and I would be using "pro audio" PA amps, with adjustable gains, that are stable down to 2 ohms.

You could also run speakers with less impedance to get more power from the amps.

Thats fine, but its not about how loud it is. Its about how it sounds at higher levels.

Nothing wrong with just an avr and no power amp. No argument from me. If it works and your happy thats all that matters. But for me my sc-55 avr could never drive my speakers the way a nice power amp can. It's an effortless sound that the avr can not match.
post #23269 of 35233
Guys,

I think I pretty much have a rear speaker placement nightmare.
Im not set on getting the RS-52 II, because its what Klipsch recommends for my RF-62 IIs and the RC-62 II and they simply look cool.

As you can see from the pic below, the large windows doesn't allow right surround to be placed at the correct position. The left surround can be placed in that corner. Ideally side placement to seating is ideal, but would rear work. What can I do?



Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
Edited by blue13x - 7/9/13 at 6:16pm
post #23270 of 35233
When seen from the front.
aramu2e8.jpg

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
post #23271 of 35233
the 61's on stands much like what you have now with them baby Bose types smile.gif that way you could place them where they sound best , even move them around at will to have a movie night & set in even a better spot ,
The RS's have that drawback that they really need a wall ,the RS will work on a stand but placement & stability is a problem I M H O
post #23272 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Most likely it is rated at 1 or 1.2V. This is pretty much standard. Even the high end AVR's/pre-pros offer the same i.e 1-1.2V. And that is at full volume with a lot of distortion. Like I mentioned before, at moderate listening volumes you may only get like 0.6V. You can multiply 0.6V by the amp gain to get the voltage out of the amp. Emotiva amps have unusually high gain like 32 (not DB). So 32*0.6= 19.2V. That gives a whopping 46W with a 8ohm load smile.gif No wonder people don't notice much difference with a separate amp and AVR as pre-pro. Don't believe those who make euphoric claims that they hear things they never heard before when they added a separate amp and that the bass is deeper and tighter. It is all in their head. Your brain wants you to hear new things just because you spent on a new amp smile.gif

I also tried the Emotiva UPA-2 (older model) 2ch amp with my RB-81's driven using the Yamaha RX-V663 as pre-pro. Absolutely no difference.

You can try a bump box like Samson to bump up the pre-out voltage from the AVR. I tried this with the Rotel RB-1080, Yamaha RX-V663 and I could play my Magnepans louder. It basically bumps up the AVR pre-out voltage by a few db. Though I didn't hear a lot of distortion, I didn't like the idea of using a $50 bump box on a $1200 speaker. More cheaper devices in the loop leads to more noise/distortion.

Crest factor...
post #23273 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The WPC of the amp is not the output you are always going to get. The amp like WIRED 4 SOUND could be rated as 1000 WPC but you also have to feed it 2.8V (input sensitivity) to get that 1000WPC based on its gain. If you feed it like 0.6V (mostly from an AVR at moderate volume with low distortion), then you are only getting a fraction of the full power. That may still be plenty compared to the power of AVR. But that amp also costs like $2000. If the amp is rated at some 200 WPC, then you only get a very small fraction as output when you feed it 0.6V and so you may not notice much difference at all.

It is not the WPC of the amp that you have to always look at. Look at the input sensitivity and the gain as that determines how much power you will get from the amp when you feed it the pre-out from the AVR. Amps manufacturers will never tell you this. They just sell you an amp based on its output rating, which you seldom get, unless you have a good pre-pro/pre-amp that has a high pre-out voltage (with low distortion)

I agree with you on what the amps "Rated WPC" is and what it really will bench test. is usually lower. There has to be a external HT 5 amp that is AVR friendly. I looked on Emotiva site again and this time I was looking at their Pre/Pro to see what the specs for the Pre out and I did Not see them?? Thinking their amps are made for their Pre/Pro and this would tell what their amps needed for input voltage. . Shame the UMC1 had so many problems as it was priced right and had all the features that my HD AVR has. Back then I was going to buy the UMC1 and XPA5 after my $1,200.00 Onkyo AVR only lasted 18 months and three trips to the factory for repairs. I saw soo many threads about the UMC1 with HDMI connecting problems I passed.
post #23274 of 35233
Some nice RB's on stands is a good choice.
post #23275 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

the 61's on stands much like what you have now with them baby Bose types smile.gif that way you could place them where they sound best , even move them around at will to have a movie night & set in even a better spot ,
The RS's have that drawback that they really need a wall ,the RS will work on a stand but placement & stability is a problem I M H O

Would wall-mounting the Rs high up work?

Basically one in a corner and one just above that left window?

Sent from Samsung Galaxy Note II
post #23276 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post

I agree with you on what the amps "Rated WPC" is and what it really will bench test. is usually lower. There has to be a external HT 5 amp that is AVR friendly. I looked on Emotiva site again and this time I was looking at their Pre/Pro to see what the specs for the Pre out and I did Not see them?? Thinking their amps are made for their Pre/Pro and this would tell what their amps needed for input voltage. . Shame the UMC1 had so many problems as it was priced right and had all the features that my HD AVR has. Back then I was going to buy the UMC1 and XPA5 after my $1,200.00 Onkyo AVR only lasted 18 months and three trips to the factory for repairs. I saw soo many threads about the UMC1 with HDMI connecting problems I passed.

Your best bet is to try it and see what you think. You can always send the amp back if you find that its not an upgrade to you. It would cost you around $70 to send it back so its not a totally free trail but at least you have that option if your not happy. I would not read to much into what your reading here. Everyone can have an opinion but just know not too many will share his in this regard. His numbers are right but his results are not. Best to see for your self. If i only took peoples advise from these forums i probably wouldn't even own klipsch (and that would be sad just thinking about it biggrin.gif)
post #23277 of 35233
I think you fellas who haven't purchased an amp but are curious if it will benefit you pose a question in one of the technical forums. OTOH, if you are experiencing clipping before you get to the volume you want, then you should consider buying one.
post #23278 of 35233
Hi guys is klipsch KSW 12. Better than RW 12D?
post #23279 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Hi guys is klipsch KSW 12. Better than RW 12D?

NO!
post #23280 of 35233
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

NO!
Can both of them works together for a dual sub?
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