Who thinks that there will be a PQ difference ? - Page 2  

I wonder what the fifth element would look like as a blu-ray movie, the HD movie i viewed on comcast was very grainy and dirty.While the superbit DVD version was pretty prestine and clear.

I think both formats will look the same personally it's all about the movies and which format has the ones you want and for me that's blu-ray which is why i support it 100%. the 25GB and MPEG-2 should'nt be an issue to get good quality as long as they keep extras to a low minumem or just include a seperate disc which i think is better IMO.MPEG-2 is a mature encoder, the quality should be fine.

I wish this stupid format war would end really since it seems to have a profound effect on us all, i mean you seen how much this forum went to **** already in the past couple of months right?

In the end it's all about the movies we love and i think we can all agree on that:)

i dont think there will be much difference btwn BR and HD.

I wonder if there will be a big diff between the new formats and DVD.

I just saw the hd dvd of apollo 13 @ BB. It was playing on the 60 in SXRD and frankly , i was disappointed. Grainy, flat colors, washed out.


I hope br is better than that. :o

It was probably set to 720p. Apollo 13 is spectacular on 1080i HD DVD. Trust me on this one :D

If BD is any better than HD DVD it would have to be truly glorious!

It's not the formats fault that it can't display 720p good it's the players fault.

I was watching Sin City but the picture was horrible, the saturation was completely gone. :D

I bought the Toshiba HD-A1 only because HD-DVD movies are on DL 30GB media with AC1 video encoding with HD audio tracks. Sony is limiting the Studios with SL 25GB media with mpeg2 video encoding didn't sound good to me.

If Sony was had DL 50GB media for the Studios I would of waited but it's not happening any time soon. As I don't want to buy the same movies again with better PQ (or higher mpeg2 bit rates) and HD audio tracks when the 50GB media issue are worked out.

If I do plan to get another HD player I get will be because it's the winner or it plays my current HD-DVD movies.

...Angelo

My speculation:

For BD50's in any codec, they should look the same in the two formats.

For BD-25's that are VC1 or Mpeg4, they should look the same.

For BD25's in mpeg2, they'll probably look the same, but it's not certain.

For BD20's (BD25's that use only 20G's of space) in mpeg2, there is a real risk of compression artifacts that otherwise shouldn't be seen.


How many, if any, movies will be put out in each category? I'll be interested to see.

Will be interesting to see how the Sony's and the other blu-ray "players"(not the format) will handle 720p out. Hopefully it will do it great. I'm also waiting for other hd-dvd players to come out and see how they handle 720p out.

My speculation:

For BD50's in any codec, they should look the same in the two formats.
- I will agree beacuse of the 50GB media size BUT Sony has problem with this media size even today. I was looking forward to this media size that Sony had been advertising since day one or years ago and release day knocking on the door, it isn't happening! :mad:

For BD-25's that are VC1 or Mpeg4, they should look the same.
- I will agree BUT Sony isn't using these codecs with the current release of movies, more problems with Sony. :rolleyes:

For BD25's in mpeg2, they'll probably look the same, but it's not certain.
- I will disagree. MPEG2 at an average 18 - 22Mb/s is only 3 times the average DVD data rate and HD1080 has 6 times more pixels than DVD. So if you see mosquito noise with current DVD it isn't going to be much better with Sony's HD using mpeg2 with BD25 media. This the main reason I did not wait to see BD and bought HD-DVD.

For BD20's (BD25's that use only 20G's of space) in mpeg2, there is a real risk of compression artifacts that otherwise shouldn't be seen.
- I will agree with the real risk of compression artifacts. See above.

...Angelo

With shallow viewing angles, the differences will probably be very slight.

Here's where I have a problem...

Why in the hell is anyone backing a format that, as of now is only capable of 1080i. Yeah, add more layers and you can get all kinds of material on there, but from what I gather, HD DVD technology can't ever expect to properly pass a 1080p signal. The transfer rates for both audio and video are much less than the specs for BD. Yet here were are in a world where, in some cases (fast action, sports, etc.) 720p is, at least on par with 1080i.

Look around, people. The BD units' specs say they WILL output 1080p. There are already relatively affordable displays on the market that can handle a 1080p signal. Within a year there will be many and before long, they all will. Don't worry, Sony will get the layers and the codec crap figured out before long. The facts are plain, HD DVD is simply an inferior technology that just happens to have beat BD on the calendar.

Here's something fellow member Sean_S said a few months back in a reply that sounds about right to me...

"But there is still advantage in a display that can accept 1080p/60 over 1080i: If content created and encoded on the disk at 1080p/24, then the player will have to interlace it to send to a 1080i set, which will then deinterlace it to 1080p/60. This interlacing/deinterlacing will undoubtedly introduce artifacts. Whereas a 1080p/24 signal sent to a 1080p/60 set it will only have to display the 3/2 cadence w/o affecting the individual frames.

Sean"

Then there's this thread. Read page 3.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=1080p

Now those of you with Tosh's, for 500 bucks, you are getting some fun and good entertainment now, along with what sounds like an excellent SD upconverter, while the patient are stewing a bit. Who could blame you for that? But the time is now for a new format and I want it to be one that will stand the test of time and provide the best resolution possible with the new diplay standard at your doorstep, 1080p.

Some HD DVD players will output 1080i, some will output 1080P. Some Blu-ray players will output 1080i, some will output 1080P. The content is stored 1080P on both formats. Since both formats are identical in this respect, I don't understand your point.

You must know more than me. I haven't heard that any HD DVD players will support 1080p. A google search certainly seems to support that. Yet I haven't seen 1 BD player say it won't support 1080p. From what I've read, even the $499 PS3 is said to be able to do it over component. Please point me in the direction of your info.

Both formats will support 1080p.

Are you implying that BD will look better out of the gate because of 1080p output - irrespective of how the content is encoded? I humbly disagree with you here. I've seen 1080p displays with PQ that couldn't match my 768p plasma :confused:

The PS3 will upconvert to 1080p over component? Where did you read this?

There's nothing about HD DVD that makes it 1080i. The content isn't stored that way. The first players are 1080i for transport, but there's no reason to believe future ones will be 1080i.

The $499 PS3 shouldn't be able to do 1080P over component because 1080P isn't an authorized output on component for movies (that restiction doesn't apply to games.) No Blu-ray or HD DVD player should output 1080P movies over component.

Sony said the PS3 will output up to 1080i over component not 1080P.

Apollo 13 looks astonishing on my 96" screen via an AE700u, even better than my reference HD recordings from COMCAST HD - which themselves are quite amazing

No question, your setup or something else is wrong

Probably the usual failure to set it to 1080i

While videophiles will argue about perceived video quality between the two formats, the thing that matters is what the mass market thinks, with their RPTVs in their living rooms. In other words, to Art's original question, longevity will be decided by other factors. Player price will be a very, very important consideration, as frankly, the masses won't give too hoots about other technical features. Available titles will be a secondary consideration, mostly because the studios will release more titles on whichever format has the largest installed base. So, I think that the blu-ray camp better get an economics 101 lesson soon and figure out how to sell a price competitive player (IMHO, they have about a year to do this).

I agree that both formats essentially look the same on the limited demo material I've seen. I've seen the HD-DVD on the 42" 1080p westighouse at BB, and tonight had teh chance to see the bluray demo presentation on the 1080p sxrd sony rear projection and the ruby. Both demos are convincing, and honestly I think for the average consumer it will come down to 1) price and 2) title availability. Average Joe is not going to be concerned with capacity or this or that. If the picture quality is the same (it's close enough imo, if there is any difference at all) being able to afford your content of choice is what matters.

FWIW, the sony rep demoing the unit was not very well trained. Was spewing all kinds of nonsense about toshiba and hd-dvd, and didn't understand basic concepts about 1080i/p. That kind of approach was a definite turnoff, but the demo material itself (especially on the ruby, oh I wish I could afford that) was outstanding.

-bald

Initially due to use of MPEG2 on BD there will be subtle differences, I expect to see some macro blocking in subtley graduated/dark secene, but I doubt most people will see the difference.

Both are going to be using the same codecs going forward at which point quality will likely be the same with some possibility of a mid life boost on BD when/if they sort out dual layer production issues. But ultimatley I agree with Art.

John.

Every single HD-DVD release has been encoded in 1080p, so the format is certainly going to support this feature. Toshiba made a conscious decision to limit the A1 to 1080i to allow the unit to sell for less money. When one considers the few # of actual 1080p monitors in homes, this doesn't seem like a bad idea. I would never have purchased the Toshiba if it were $1000.

Yes, the content is stored that way however Toshiba has set such a small price point for their 1st generation player, it's hard to see them investing and selling a more expensive 1080p player in the near future

Why is anyone backing any format when the future is obviously downloadable content and any resolution you choose?

Mod

please let's stick to the topic :)

oh sure mod :)

can't digress not even a little, sigh

That's only a postivie if you think the DVD player will downscale the picture better than your display. Why do you think that will be the case?

-Gary.

I have a question:

Are the statements regarding BD's (anticipated) image quality and the "inherent shortcomings" of the MPEG2/BD25 combination based on MPEG2's performance with SD DVD? Or is it simply a matter of number crunching (title's size/bitrate/available disc space)? I'm asking because I've seen a few diagrams illustrating all four technologies (CD, DVD, BD, HD-DVD) and explaining the differences in beam size/pit size among the four formats; BD has a slightly smaller pit size and narrower beam size than HD-DVD---would these two factors not enter into the equation?

Reading all the issues with Sony's media, Sony has leaped to far for current technology to be practical with BD 50GB media in the real world. I have read that even Sony's Single-Layer 25GB media only yields 40% where as Toshiba's Dual-Layer 30GB media yields 90%. Even with BD 25GB there is heavy losses in creating these HD movies. If Sony's issues don't get fixed by the end of the year your going to see many BD supporters signing up with Toshiba.

...Angelo

Because I have a 720p projector (Sony hS51) that uses a common scaler chip that will down scape it to 1920 X 540 first before going to 1280X720. See this post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7512370


Now so I gather that given 1080i to my projector I have 1280 X 540, and want to see if 1280 X 720 will have any noticeable difference.

O.K., I'll concede the 1080i point for the cheaper PS3. So I've gotta' spend a whole hundred dollars to buy into the superior technology of BD. Boohoo.

Now please direct me to the other BD players, you're talking about that are limited to 1080i as well as the the HD DVD players that claim 1080p, because I certainly must've missed 'em.

I thought it was apparent that I meant all things being equal. Apples to apples as far as encoding, which I said Sony will iron out as well as mastering, film transfer, etc. etc.

O.K., I concede that I misread the cheaper PS3s abilities. So I have to spend an extra hundred bucks for superior technology. Boohoo.