OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 127

The glass sheets they use to make LCD TVs at Sharp's 10G fab are 2.88 x 3.13 meters in size. The panels wind up ridiculously thin. The glass is not shaved at any point in the process.

Yes, unlike semiconductor where wafers are background to thin the substrate to make their heat dissipation better before they are cut to individual die, TFT glass is not. And yes to answer a question here that almost 3 meter square piece of glass is .7 mm thick (the glass that the TFT is on).


More than a few of the steps involved in making a TFT involve heat that is used for cure or set steps (resist bakes are roughly 100 Centigrade, post exposure is 110), making the use of most plastics null. Add on top of that plasma depositions and CVD where substrates are exposed to vacuum where out gassing from the plastic would be a concern and there are lots of reasons why TVs are made on glass still.

I have no real insight into OLED tech, as I am an optician by trade. But, for eyeglass lenses, glass has the best optical clarity of any material. Much better than any polycarbonate, trivex, or high index plastic materials. I assume it would generally translate into display screens as well. Glass lenses have the same drawbacks as their display counterparts (weight, reflectivity) and the additional drawback of added thickness.

As always, TNG, your expertise in semiconductor/display manufacturing is appreciated.

It's worth noting that while the OLED is using a TFT backplane that will be manufactured almost identically to the one on an LCD, the LG method will involve some sort of vacuum deposition of the OLED material as well.

This should further confirm the need for glass substrates all around at this point.

So I've been keeping my eye on mobile devices with OLEDs and it seems like everyone has great things to say about the displays but they aren't with problems. One thing that stands out to me is when people view dark images and totally black screens in a dark environment they say that the screen is still putting out some amount of light. Now that shouldn't happen with OLEDs since the pixels should be able to turn themselves off, right? Also, it seems that more and more people are seeing these black spots/splotches/mura on there mobile screens in recent months, the PS Vita being the latest example.

Here are some photos I've grabbed off some other forums as examples:

Droid RAZR


PS Vita

Keep in mind that these images are very over-exposed.

My first thought when I read about these phenonema was that they were related to the touch screen.

I'm going to assum that almost all of these devices use Samsung's Super AMOLED displays (the super in Super AMOLED denotes an integrated touchscreen).

My question is, what effect does integrating a capacative touchscreen into the OLED screen itself (rather than being overlaid) have on it's ability to produce an absolute black level?

Hmm... I've noticed that depending upon the software that the screen doesn't go completely black, but others it does. I'll have to copy over a black (0,0,0 and 1,1,1) image and take a picture in a blacked out room to see if I can replicate this or not!

Good point HDPeeT that explains why the monitors do not have this issue BTW we discussed this a day ago.

Super AMOLED uses on-cell touch below the cover glass. I was suspecting it was a filter issue because it looks like a uniformity problem. Funny is I don't see people having the same complaint about LCD touchscreen? Maybe it's not so observable on LCD?

Industry is moving to in-cell touch for LCD but not sure if it is easily applicable for OLED, since it is already difficult for LCD. This should resolve uniformity issue.

That was my line of thinking, but with so few monitors out there and the fact that they are (most likely) cherry picked panels manufactured using techniques that differ greatly from the mass production lines that LG and Samsung are going to be using, I don't think we can draw any conclusions.

Hey, that's my Vita right there :P

That OLED screen problem SUCKS, there's no other way to put it, while I agree with the advantages of it (less power consuption, better contrast and viweing angles among other) watching those spots/lines while you are watching a dark scene is inexcusable, I'd prefer less contrast but no lines, spots, traces, etc all over my picture!
And other thing, my cheap Galaxy Gio phone is more bright on daylight then the OLED display, I always thought OLED would allow better "outdoor" image.

Here's two more images.

As mentioned over on the specific thread, the uniformity of the OLED panel in my Vita is much better...

"SAMSUNG: JAPAN & CHINA CAN COMPETE IN OLEDS"

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1330688969

"Cho Soo-in, CEO of Samsung Mobile Display that controls Samsung's OLED development and production, does not feel comfortable about Samsung's competitive position in the OLED segment. Despite the fact that South Korean Samsung and LG have 55-inch OLED-TVs coming later in 2012, he believes that the Japanese and Chinese display makers pose a significant threat. It is an interesting reflection since none of the Japanese display makers - Sony, Panasonic, Sharp and Toshiba - have unveiled any OLED-TV products.

Cho Soo-in says that the Japanese display makers have a competitive advantage in OLED material (used to create OLED pixels) and collaborations. He also says that the Chinese display manufacturers are becoming stronger, expanding rapidly, and has received support from the Chinese government.

He expects to see the first OLED panels to roll out of China in 2013, and he expects them to join the OLED race full-heartedly. Today, the Chinese display manufacturers are still considered small but Cho Soo-in believes that the balance of power may shift during the transition from LCD to OLED production."

I've read the issue dissipates once the screen has warmed up which takes about 45m or so. Can you confirm? Do you have any shots of the same sample black screen after playing a game for say an hour non-stop?

Another report said they start to diminish with time (many hours) as well. Be interesting to see some long term reports. Probably can only do this with the phones since they've been out the longer.

No, the problem remains no matter how long you play a game, I did already 3h non-stop of Uncharted and the problem looked exactly the same as when I started playing.

I assumed the problem would diminish with time to, since we could assume the product used to bond the screen to the front of the vita would "dry" with time leading to a uniform aspect, but I read somewhere the problem won't go away by itself, only time will tell I assume.

What makes no sense to me is that, as far as I know, the OLED technology is all about per-pixel brightness, what I mean is that since the light source is the pixel itself and not a backlight source, if the pixel is OFF or presenting 0/0/0/0 color (pure black) it should produce no light at all, so why is that pattern still so visible?

As I said on tweeter just minutes ago " It's a HUGE "no problem" I don't need (MUST!) to solve!"

It drives me nuts while I'm playing a game with dark scenes, to see those "darker" spots noticeable, this shouldn't happen, and what's more frustrating is that replacing the VITA won't solve the problem (might very well end with a even more spotty VITA) and GAME won't even accept it, saying it's "normal".

I want to point to everyone that this "problem" isn't as serious as I may "picture it", since it's ONLY noticeable if you play on a almost completely dark room and on scenes where black and dark grey image is presented, otherwise the screen is fantastic, still if you have a little bit of OCD this issue will drive you mad, I feel this is somehow even worse than a dead pixel, since it's less obvious, making the process of looking for it even more obsessive and stressful.

That looks almost like stains from some kind of adhesive. I wonder if they glued some protective sheet of plastic to the front that's causing the spots. Or maybe the OLED panel itself is glued to the inside of the case itself. I think I remember seeing that in one of the blogs where they disassembled the entire Vita system.

"the OLED panel itself is glued to the inside of the case itself" this!

Altough I saw one of those "smash" videos on youtube and the screen didn't seemed to be very fixed/glued to the case. (front glass).

SAMSUNG CONFIRMS PLAN FOR FLEXIBLE OLEDS IN 2012

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1330950943

"Flexible displays are obviously only the first step before we can create truly bendable electronics because it also requires other flexible components but the OLED technology can put us one step closer. Because OLED can be deposited on other substrates than glass - for example plastic - it can become flexible.

Cho Soo-in, responsible for Samsung's mobile and OLED division, now confirms to Korean newspaper AsiaE that Samsung will produce and commercialize flexible OLED displays later in 2012. The first step is to produce small flexible OLED displays for handheld devices and larger flexible OLED displays later on."

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1330948323

Maybe it's a typo as their new tech should be CLED ie Crystal LED?

CLed or just LED TV uses a lot more power and I think has some problems with color reproduction in the same way Samsungs RGB Oled has the super big Blue sub pixel distorts the color.


For production and something were going to see in a TV I still think LGs Woled or White Oled TV. Is probably the best were going to get for a long time to stores in TV sizes.

Currently inorganic LEDs have a higher efficiency than organic LEDs (well, blue at least) and according to the crystal led thread, the demoed display uses 70W, so where did you hear that it uses "a lot more power"?
Why do you think a larger blue sub pixel will distort the color? Any manufacturer will just drive the blue subpixel at a lower current so I see no reason for it to "distort the color". I don't remember people who saw the Samsung display reporting an excessively blue image. Even if it was, proper calibration should be able to fix it. I see no reason to believe this is some inherent problem with Samsung's implementaion.

People who know nothing about technology need to stop reporting on it:

"The South Korean companies are developing organic light- emitting diode, or OLED, televisions that are as thin as 4 millimeters (0.16 inches) and produce images 200 times sharper than current liquid-crystal-display models"

I'm not sure what the 200x is even supposed to be a reference to. But what is clearly does not refer to is "sharpness". The OLEDs will have the same resolution, in the case of LG almost identical (perhaps actually worse thanks to the use of the white) pixel aperture ratio, and the same pixel pitch. Contrastier? Yes, and maybe 200x on useless on/off measurements. On ANSI? Not even relevant since the Samsung/LG models they will compete against are within screaming distance of human visual limits and the OLEDs will far exceed them.

200x sharper? Please.

'Using organically glowing materials, OLED TVs don't require separate backlights and can be half the thickness of Apple (AAPL)'s iPad 2, which measures 8.8 millimeters. "

So this is true, but we've discussed why it's stupid to build a TV this thin. Samsung, in the same article, in fact refused to tell Bloomberg how thick their TV will actually be. Anyway, why did this annoy me? Oh, because the thickness of the iPad is mostly the battery, not the screen. So while it's an interesting comparison point, it's not actually a relevant technological reference. I have a Macbook Air whose screen is clearly thinner than my iPad -- by quite a bit. It's encased in an aluminum shell. My guess is no TV sold will be thinner than that screen.... So why even mention this? How about comparing the thickness to a credit card instead of creating a fake comparison?

Anyway, it's further proof OLED is coming. For that we should be grateful, I suppose.

Quote

"Samsung has to resolve “some technical issues” before starting mass output of OLED TVs, Kim Hyun Suk, head of the company’s TV operations, said in an interview in Las Vegas."

“LG expects to start selling “more competitively priced” models earlier than rivals, Roh Seong Ho, senior vice president at LG’s Home Entertainment Company, said in an e-mail. Initial investment costs and low output rates pose the biggest obstacles, Roh said.”


No Samsung OLED in retail this year or maybe next year due to unsolved technical issues. LG is saying low output rates being the biggest obstacles. So OLED is not ready for production and nowhere near mass production.

Korean betting on it doesn't mean OLED will become a mass product.
It is still highly likely OLED will follow the step of SED. Bad money usually drives out good.

Have you been following this thread? The Doubt ship has long since sailed. It's now only a matter of when. SED never got this far.

Lymzy, we've been sketpical here for two months that Samsung would deliver this year. Color us "still skeptical." Also, the rational among us have figured LG's 2012 shipments would be in tiny quantities; we still believe that.

But I do believe LG will ramp in 2013 and beyond and that Samsung will begin production in 2013. I also tend to believe Panasonic is targeting 2014-5 at this point.

By mid-decade, it seems likely the Chinese are going to (a) have their own reasonably advanced LCD production (b) have brands ready to move up to tier 2. Combine this with the end of the amortization of most 8G fabs in Japan and Korea and it should be apparent that the current LCD power structure wants out of LCD for TV. Yes, it will take many, many years to achieve. No, it's not 100% guaranteed. But it's closer than it has been... by far.

OLED MAKE CRAZY FUTURISTIC CONCEPTS POSSIBLE

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1331300544

Some fascinating concepts, making it a fun read. Take a look, and as always Ladies and Gentlemen, this is for entertainment purposes only, so no wagering please.

greenland,

Cool application on the cars. Imagine what emergency patterns could be programmed.

According to the information from the LG road show, their OLED premiere in Europe starts on May 23rd.

I wonder what that means...