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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 132

post #3931 of 9448
RGBW implementation is "backlighting" from a certain point of view, but I agree it is badly worded and misleading.

My post in the LG OLED thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

^^ And again for the record, we thought it was ridiculous to replace the LED backlight with expensive OLED.

Turn out that the so-called OLED backlight is actually backlighting individual pixels (ie the ultimate Local Dimming) It is definitely an elegant solution to a complex problem... and I had to admit that I was skeptical that LG of all companies will be able to pull this off. But I am glad they did.

But this solution is probably not feasible for high density screens
post #3932 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

RGBW implementation is "backlighting" from a certain point of view, but I agree it is badly worded and misleading.

My post in the LG OLED thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor
^^ And again for the record, we thought it was ridiculous to replace the LED backlight with expensive OLED.

Turn out that the so-called OLED backlight is actually backlighting individual pixels (ie the ultimate Local Dimming) It is definitely an elegant solution to a complex problem... and I had to admit that I was skeptical that LG of all companies will be able to pull this off. But I am glad they did.

But this solution is probably not feasible for high density screens
:

Yeah but the RGBW is not really backlighting to an LCD as your post seems to say but is just white OLEDs with filters over them, there is no liquid crystal there at all.

As far as pixel level local dimming as another idea I would think it wouldn't work due to parallax. If you looked at the screen a bit off axis the LCD and backlight pixel would not line up due to backplane glass thickness making LCD viewing angle issues much worse. You could probably increase the local dimming density much more than it is now though.
post #3933 of 9448
I never mention Liquid Crystal at all it is a sort of "backlighting" because they still uses color filters, and ironically the white OLED is not intrinsically white at all, which we have already discussed at length 2 months ago.

As you mention, the off axis problem with LCD is the backlight lining up with the LC which is like a venetian blind effect. But this problem is much mitigated when the OLED light source is very close to the RGBW color filter without any "venetitian blind". Density however should have an issue at smaller pitches with neighbouring light contamination.
post #3934 of 9448
I'm just not overly worried about any issues with LG's technology. We're talking a quantum leap over LCD. I mean, I doubt it's going to be perfect, especially in the first generation or two. But it's such a ridiculous leap forward on the things that are still wrong with LCD, that I suspect by mid decade no serious videophile will be wasting their breath discussing LCD any more.
post #3935 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm just not overly worried about any issues with LG's technology. We're talking a quantum leap over LCD. I mean, I doubt it's going to be perfect, especially in the first generation or two. But it's such a ridiculous leap forward on the things that are still wrong with LCD, that I suspect by mid decade no serious videophile will be wasting their breath discussing LCD any more.

IdeAs are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies haVe guns, why should we let them have ideaS. -- Joseph Stalin

Your flagship citation suggests tendency for doctrinal thinking (not to mention lack of taste in the selection of the author ). While it was Deng Xiaoping who, citing old Chinese saying, said:

It doesn't matter whether it is a yellow cat or a black cat, a cat that catches mice is a good cat.

That marked another example of historical triumph of pragamtic over doctrinal . In the conext of OLED key pragmatic question arises: If it is such quantum leap, and its only problem is scaling up, why it has not conquisted small factor displays?

The analytic answer to this is that LCD is chameleon technology hugely adaptable to the environment. This is seen both on the monster size and high density display sides. Now there is coming IGZO LCD version from Sharp claiming to have high brightness and contrast, very low power and high density. Thus, quantum leaps or not, LCD is pushing full steam ahead. Chances of OLED are not extremely bright facing such formidable competition.
post #3936 of 9448
Quote:


I'm just not overly worried about any issues with LG's technology. We're talking a quantum leap over LCD. I mean, I doubt it's going to be perfect, especially in the first generation or two. But it's such a ridiculous leap forward on the things that are still wrong with LCD, that I suspect by mid decade no serious videophile will be wasting their breath discussing LCD any more.

you're probably right. Are there any American companies going after this that you guys know of? Or is the technology going to be soley international with not alot going on domestically?
post #3937 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

........... The analytic answer to this is that LCD is chameleon technology hugely adaptable to the environment. This is seen both on the monster size and high density display sides. Now there is coming IGZO LCD version from Sharp claiming to have high brightness and contrast, very low power and high density. Thus, quantum leaps or not, LCD is pushing full steam ahead. Chances of OLED are not extremely bright facing such formidable competition.

If I get your drift, LCD is not going to go quietly - and perhaps it's not even going to go at all. And the same probably applies to LED and Plasma. They'll put up a fight. That's a good thing - isn't it?
post #3938 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Your flagship citation suggests tendency for doctrinal thinking (not to mention lack of taste in the selection of the author ). While it was Deng Xiaoping who, citing old Chinese saying, said:

It doesn't matter whether it is a yellow cat or a black cat, a cat that catches mice is a good cat.

That marked another example of historical triumph of pragamtic over doctrinal . In the conext of OLED key pragmatic question arises: If it is such quantum leap, and its only problem is scaling up, why it has not conquisted small factor displays?

The analytic answer to this is that LCD is chameleon technology hugely adaptable to the environment. This is seen both on the monster size and high density display sides. Now there is coming IGZO LCD version from Sharp claiming to have high brightness and contrast, very low power and high density. Thus, quantum leaps or not, LCD is pushing full steam ahead. Chances of OLED are not extremely bright facing such formidable competition.

When they make an LCD that has both wide viewing angles and high contrast, you give me a call. Until then, I'm not worried about LCD surviving OLED's assault on the living room.

As for small form factor, OLED hasn't "won" yet because it's more expensive. I realize this concept is hard to grasp, but there are no cheap smartphones with OLED displays. (And, please, anyone quoting carrier-subsidized retail pricing on smartphones should just pack up they foruming shoes and go home now. Those prices are not relevant to this discussion.) It's also true, however, that OLED has been at this game for about 3 years (barely?) and LCD has been at it since there's been a game. I'd say give it time. There isn't enough OLED production on earth to satisfy all the demand yet.

IGZO is a nice development for LCD. Too bad very little LCD IGZO production seems to be getting turned up. Also -- and please don't take this wrong -- I could care less about what happens to phones, tablets and laptops. I suspect LCD will continue to dominate laptops for years and probably tablets too. It will continue to dominate TVs for years too. But videophiles will search out OLED once it starts getting produced in any quantity. Moving 20 degrees off axis and losing contrast? Suffering edge-lit uniformity indignities? Please. LCD remains horrible in those regards. At any price. The rarest of LCD exceptions are products that their manufacturers have yet to commit to continue making and have terrible economics. In other words, full array locally dimmed LCD might not be around in a few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

you're probably right. Are there any American companies going after this that you guys know of? Or is the technology going to be soley international with not alot going on domestically?

I doubt display manufacturing will ever again be done by American companies. Ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

If I get your drift, LCD is not going to go quietly - and perhaps it's not even going to go at all. And the same probably applies to LED and Plasma. They'll put up a fight. That's a good thing - isn't it?

Yes. It's a great thing.
post #3939 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Your flagship citation suggests tendency for doctrinal thinking (not to mention lack of taste in the selection of the author ). While it was Deng Xiaoping who, citing old Chinese saying, said:

It doesn't matter whether it is a yellow cat or a black cat, a cat that catches mice is a good cat.

That marked another example of historical triumph of pragamtic over doctrinal . In the conext of OLED key pragmatic question arises: If it is such quantum leap, and its only problem is scaling up, why it has not conquisted small factor displays?

The analytic answer to this is that LCD is chameleon technology hugely adaptable to the environment. This is seen both on the monster size and high density display sides. Now there is coming IGZO LCD version from Sharp claiming to have high brightness and contrast, very low power and high density. Thus, quantum leaps or not, LCD is pushing full steam ahead. Chances of OLED are not extremely bright facing such formidable competition.

It's actually white cat, not yellow cat. Close enough but you're actually quite apt at arguing the fringe

Plasma is declining because Panny shut down P5. LCD is declining becuase LCD capacity is being shifted to OLED. Doesn't need to be rocket scientist to figure this out. Just need logical unbiased observation.

That said, from his language rogo does seem to up his optimissim on OLED again: to perceivable difference against LCD.
post #3940 of 9448
Samsung already out sells the iphone, with oled screened cellphones.

Many other cellphone mkers now have oled cellphones too.

Samsung is migrating tablets to oled. Toshiba has an oled tablet coming out.

And the japan display co is doing small screen oled.

Oh, and the new sony portable game unit is oled.

I would say you are seeing oled take over, right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post



That marked another example of historical triumph of pragamtic over doctrinal . In the conext of OLED key pragmatic question arises: If it is such quantum leap, and its only problem is scaling up, why it has not conquisted small factor displays?

.
post #3941 of 9448
I have seen OLED cellphone with sever burn-in.
That is a challenge for displays with static displays.

I suspect LED will still do well in the computer display market.

- Rich
post #3942 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I doubt display manufacturing will ever again be done by American companies. Ever.

"Ever" is kind of a long time.
post #3943 of 9448
When it comes to the computer monitor space, I'm more excited for IGZO than OLED. Sharp is supposedly going to release a 32 IGZO monitor with 3840x2160 pixels (140 ppi). OLED's potential for burn-in scares me at this point.
post #3944 of 9448
My phone has an oled display with pentile pixel structure. I have watched more than 100 hours of 4:3 tv shows (star trek on netflix) and I do not see any burn in using solid color screens.

Does the pixel structure change the possibility of burn in?
I have seen images of oled burn in but it hasn't happened on my phone's display after 2 years of heavy use.

Are there any expectations as far as burn in / image retention for upcoming large screen oled tvs? Compared to plasma / crt?
post #3945 of 9448
FWIW, LG Display stated that they think that early-adopters will pay a 100% premium for OLED televisions and it will go mainstream when it gets within 30-40%.

They will be announcing details about their commercial Gen 8 fab in July. That should give us a fairly concrete idea about when they think that OLED's will be gaining real traction outside of the 1% and AVS members .
post #3946 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goo View Post


Does the pixel structure change the possibility of burn in?

It shouldn't much matter that it's pentile. There is some overlap in sub-pixel use, but if burn in was going to happen in your phone, that wouldn't protect you. I suspect some implementations on phones at this point are better than others (not related to pixel structure but more the generation of materials used and perhaps exposure of the phone to certain kinds of light over time).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunidrem View Post

"Ever" is kind of a long time.

I'm actually willing to stick with ever. American manufacturing is in the kind of secular, multi-decade decline that you don't tend to come out. I believe that once OLED takes off it's going to be the display of choice until mid-century or later. (LCD, I actually believe will be around for decades too.) There is no reason whatsoever to believe an American company is going to get involved in OLED manufacturing unless, I suppose, Apple does in a vertical integration play. But even if that happens, it's more likely to be a joint venture and not one in the U.S. or one they run/control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

That said, from his language rogo does seem to up his optimissim on OLED again: to perceivable difference against LCD.

I am more optimistic because I believe LG is going to drive the industry with a mfg. method that is going to seem fairly easy within a couple of years.

But, yes, I believe the difference in quality will be apparent to videophiles because I think full array back-lit LCD is more or less a fringe technology that will barely be developed from here. I've often compared the OLED to the Sharp Elite (a great display). How many people have really experienced a Sharp Elite? Virtually no one. And nothing is likely to change that. In fact, it's somewhat likely the Sharp Elite won't be around in a few years -- although I hope it is.

But more significantly, I believe OLED will deliver that kind of quality across all viewing angles and -- ultimately -- at mainstream prices. Full array LCD, locally dimmed LCD is not going to do that. That's an important distinction I think.
post #3947 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

When they make an LCD that has both wide viewing angles and high contrast, you give me a call. Until then, I'm not worried about LCD surviving OLED's assault on the living room.

For the mass market LCD is already too-good-enough. You belong to a margin of doctrinal zealots fixated on the viewing angles .

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

As for small form factor, OLED hasn't "won" yet because it's more expensive.

But price is decisive if the competing technologies are good-enough. You seem to imply OLED may reach the stage at which it will beat the LCD on price. That will be very hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's also true, however, that OLED has been at this game for about 3 years (barely?) and LCD has been at it since there's been a game. I'd say give it time. There isn't enough OLED production on earth to satisfy all the demand yet.

Demand is function of price. OLED is not competitive and it is hard to see how it may become competitive. True, there is movement to make it more competitive be using LCD plants for manufacturing. But still this is uphill stony road.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

IGZO is a nice development for LCD. Too bad very little LCD IGZO production seems to be getting turned up.

LCD is upping the game. Now the target for OLED to match LCD must be high density and especially low power consumption. These are formidable problems for OLED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Also -- and please don't take this wrong -- I could care less about what happens to phones, tablets and laptops. I suspect LCD will continue to dominate laptops for years and probably tablets too. It will continue to dominate TVs for years too. But videophiles will search out OLED once it starts getting produced in any quantity. Moving 20 degrees off axis and losing contrast? Suffering edge-lit uniformity indignities? Please. LCD remains horrible in those regards. At any price.

Your requirements are much beyond standard consumers and will not be satisified by the industry since the 'zealots' market is too small . The practical problem you will soon face is to buy a small and supposedly perfect 55" OLED for the XXXL price or cheaper 70", 80" or maybe even 90" LCD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I doubt display manufacturing will ever again be done by American companies. Ever.

But why it should be done at all? Low-profit commodities made under cut-throat competition?? While at the same time companies which make designer products like Apple or Intel or even better have just a Web portal are overcashed???
post #3948 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Now the target for OLED to match LCD must be high density and especially low power consumption. These are formidable problems for OLED.

The requirements for those two metrics are very different for televisions versus handsets. Nobody is talking about a 300ppi 50" television. OLED's will be able to handle the resolutions for both 4K and 8K with little problem. On the power consumption side, unless people start surfing the web on their televisions, OLED's should perform very well against LCD's for the vast majority of content.
post #3949 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

For the mass market LCD is already too-good-enough. You belong to a margin of doctrinal zealots fixated on the viewing angles .

Damn folks with odd living spaces.
I say we get rid of all those square rooms and sectionals.
There aught to be a law: living rooms must be built like bowling alleys

- Rich
post #3950 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

When they make an LCD that has both wide viewing angles and high contrast, you give me a call. Until then, I'm not worried about LCD surviving OLED's assault on the living room.

As for small form factor, OLED hasn't "won" yet because it's more expensive. I realize this concept is hard to grasp, but there are no cheap smartphones with OLED displays. (And, please, anyone quoting carrier-subsidized retail pricing on smartphones should just pack up they foruming shoes and go home now. Those prices are not relevant to this discussion.) It's also true, however, that OLED has been at this game for about 3 years (barely?) and LCD has been at it since there's been a game. I'd say give it time. There isn't enough OLED production on earth to satisfy all the demand yet.

IGZO is a nice development for LCD. Too bad very little LCD IGZO production seems to be getting turned up. Also -- and please don't take this wrong -- I could care less about what happens to phones, tablets and laptops. I suspect LCD will continue to dominate laptops for years and probably tablets too. It will continue to dominate TVs for years too. But videophiles will search out OLED once it starts getting produced in any quantity. Moving 20 degrees off axis and losing contrast? Suffering edge-lit uniformity indignities? Please. LCD remains horrible in those regards. At any price. The rarest of LCD exceptions are products that their manufacturers have yet to commit to continue making and have terrible economics. In other words, full array locally dimmed LCD might not be around in a few years.



I doubt display manufacturing will ever again be done by American companies. Ever.



Yes. It's a great thing.

I read through this thread and couldn't find the information I was looking for. What is the resolution of Oled displays and what is the average lifespan of them?
post #3951 of 9448
Backplane advancement to benefit LCD and possibly OLED from SHARP:

Quote:


Japanese electronics giant Sharp announced recently that it has begun producing high-resolution liquid-crystal displays (LCDs) featuring metal-oxide transistor arrays.

Metal oxides are expected to help bring down the price of high-resolution LCDs, which are similar in sharpness to the retina displays found in the latest iPad and iPhone, and may also cut the cost of making organic light-emitting diode (OLED) displays, a newer type of screen that is richly colored and energy-efficient, but which remains expensive to produce at large sizes.

http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/40285/?p1=A2

td
post #3952 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

For the mass market LCD is already too-good-enough. You belong to a margin of doctrinal zealots fixated on the viewing angles .

I assume you mean "doctrinaire". Regardless, if you actually take a moment to read my post, it is crystal clear I am not talking about the mass market consumer being especially impressed.
Quote:



But price is decisive if the competing technologies are good-enough. You seem to imply OLED may reach the stage at which it will beat the LCD on price. That will be very hard.

No. I am however implying the price gap will shrink over time. And OLED will, in fact, beat the street prices of locally dimmed, full array LCD, which might not even exist.
Quote:


Demand is function of price. OLED is not competitive and it is hard to see how it may become competitive. True, there is movement to make it more competitive be using LCD plants for manufacturing. But still this is uphill stony road.

Yes, it's an uphill battle. I am sticking with my original forecasts for how much penetration OLED will achieve through the decade. That said, even those forecasts -- which wildly offend the OLED zealots by the way -- show that an uphill battle will eventually lead to about 1/3 of the market. By the next decade, OLED will most assuredly capture 1/2 the market because, well, the world's largest LCD makers have already decided to shift from LCD to it.

One plant in China is not going to suddenly replace them.
Quote:


LCD is upping the game. Now the target for OLED to match LCD must be high density and especially low power consumption. These are formidable problems for OLED.

OLED wins on power consumption at larger sizes. And giant IGZO displays don't exist yet.
Quote:


Your requirements are much beyond standard consumers and will not be satisified by the industry since the 'zealots' market is too small . The practical problem you will soon face is to buy a small and supposedly perfect 55" OLED for the XXXL price or cheaper 70", 80" or maybe even 90" LCD.

I'm buying a 65" plasma in June. My next "problem" is in 2016. I'm not too worried, but thanks for looking out for me.
Quote:


But why it should be done at all? Low-profit commodities made under cut-throat competition?? While at the same time companies which make designer products like Apple or Intel or even better have just a Web portal are overcashed???

Yes, all Apple has is a good website... Umm ok.
post #3953 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm buying a 65" plasma in June. My next "problem" is in 2016. I'm not too worried, but thanks for looking out for me.

What... a Panasonic TC-P65VT50?
post #3954 of 9448
Is LG waiting to see how their 55" OLED sells in Europe before announcing its USA debut?
post #3955 of 9448
Is the resolution of these displays almost double that of 1080p?
post #3956 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

For the mass market LCD is already too-good-enough. You belong to a margin of doctrinal zealots fixated on the viewing angles ....

Consumers walking into a B&M and seeing an LCD next to a similar sized OLED will notice the viewing angles. And other features. And will pay a 30% - 100% premium, as driven by their wallet. Side by side, LCD will have a tough time and will become the "low end" product for those for whom price is EVERYTHING.

Manufacturers want OLED because they can actually make margin on them. Eventually, even OLED will become commoditized and low margin. The writing is on the wall and I think we're seeing the last big investment in LCD development. And even this investment, you notice, is applicable to OLED. I doubt there will be continuing LCD development with a big budget unless it applies elsewhere as well.


But- LCD will be around a long time for persistent displays. The airport arrivals/departures monitors will be LCD. Not plasma. Not CRT. Not OLED. LCD.
post #3957 of 9448
For those following this thread for long time, it is amusing that irkuck is repeating what rogo said a year late, and rogo is replying to "rogo" now

Like I said, the train of technology has left the station, it's no longer at the stage of whether OLED is viable as a future mass market product. Neither does it mean LCD or plasma will disappear next year. We don't live in a binary world. What is up for debate is the price curve hence the adoption and replacement rate. And of course the usual buzz on the generational improvements in OLED, which is what AVS is about

Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

I read through this thread and couldn't find the information I was looking for. What is the resolution of Oled displays and what is the average lifespan of them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HearingImpaired View Post

Is the resolution of these displays almost double that of 1080p?

Resolution on small screens are still being improved but nowhere near retina LCD. 1080p for TV is not an issue, but next 3 years their focus will probably not be on 4k.

Problem with OLED is traditionally on blue lifespan of up to 30k hours. LG RGBW implementation supposedly lengthen the lifespan. We'll see when the spec is out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

Backplane advancement to benefit LCD and possibly OLED from SHARP:

http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/40285/?p1=A2

td

That's the IGZO backpane we've been talking about in this thread and iPad threads

What irkuck fail to figure out is that IGZO is only for sizes from about 10" iPad to 60" TV. you still need LTPS for small sizes and a-Si for huge size, as of current development.
post #3958 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

For those following this thread for long time, it is amusing that irkuck is repeating what rogo said a year late, and rogo is replying to "rogo" now

That probably shows that Rogo has incorporated new information into his evaluation.
post #3959 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That probably shows that Rogo has incorporated new information into his evaluation.

And I respect that. Like I always quoted Keynes "When facts change, I change my mind... What do you do Sir?"

Unlike a forumer still hoping for SED or arguing whether OLED is viable.

I am not trolling rogo but every incremental positive he has towards OLED, is just a confirmation that the path is right
post #3960 of 9448
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

For those following this thread for long time, it is amusing that irkuck is repeating what rogo said a year late, and rogo is replying to "rogo" now

Like I said, the train of technology has left the station, it's no longer at the stage of whether OLED is viable as a future mass market product. Neither does it mean LCD or plasma will disappear next year. We don't live in a binary world. What is up for debate is the price curve hence the adoption and replacement rate. And of course the usual buzz on the generational improvements in OLED, which is what AVS is about




Resolution on small screens are still being improved but nowhere near retina LCD. 1080p for TV is not an issue, but next 3 years their focus will probably not be on 4k.

Problem with OLED is traditionally on blue lifespan of up to 30k hours. LG RGBW implementation supposedly lengthen the lifespan. We'll see when the spec is out.


That's the IGZO backpane we've been talking about in this thread and iPad threads

What irkuck fail to figure out is that IGZO is only for sizes from about 10" iPad to 60" TV. you still need LTPS for small sizes and a-Si for huge size, as of current development.

Still though 30k hours is about ten years watching tv 8 hours a day.
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