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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 15

post #421 of 9473
I believe it is difficult at this time to build large sheets defect free.
post #422 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

The Nikkei Electronics Breakdown Team finished measuring the display properties of Sony's OLED TV. Next, we moved on to observe the pixel structure in detail with the help from a panel engineer. . . . Because the TV only uses two TFTs, it has a higher pixel aperture ratio over the product using more TFTs. The Nikkei Electronics Breakdown Team estimated that the latest panel has an aperture ratio of about 75%, which is considerably high. It is likely that Sony prioritized the enhancement of aperture ratio in the designing to fully utilize the emitting material whose life is not adequately long.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

I also hate ... the low aperture ratio that makes PDPs look grainy up close, unlike LCDs.


I agree completely. For me, aperture ratio is critical -- which is why I'd love to see some actual numbers; that would make the comparison among OLED, plasma, and LCD flat panel displays more precise. Do you have aperture ratios for plasma and LCD flat panel displays? I've not been able to find them. Including what you posted above, here's what I've uncovered thus far:

APERTURE RATIOS, FLAT PANEL TECHNOLOGIES:

OLED (UXGA): 75%
Plasma (UXGA): ??
Plasma (XGA): ??
LCD (UXGA): ??
LCD (XGA): ??


APERTURE RATIOS, PROJECTION TECHNOLOGIES:

3LCD, current generation (Epson D7, UXGA): ??
3LCD, current generation (Epson D7, XGA): 79%**
3LCD, last generation (XGA): 65%*

DILA/LCOS (UXGA): 92-93%

DLP, current generation (UXGA): 95%***
DLP, last generation: 91%*

*http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/1001...number=1505648
**http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/20...s_20080131.htm
***http://www.dlp.com/projectors/1080p.aspx
post #423 of 9473
Thread Starter 
PDP has low aperture ratio due to the gas cells requiring sturdy walls to maintain structural integrity with existing pressure difference. These walls separate pixels on the horizontal and vertical. In some designs, the horizontal walls are so thick they are easily visible as wide spaces between visible emission rectangles. I've seen this many times before in my up-close examinations of PDP.

As for OLED, its builders have, as the Nikkei mentions, more flexibility in their design. I'm willing to bet quite a sum that the lowest aperture ratio of any commercial design will be nicely larger than any existing or future PDP. LCD, being much more similar in layout design, also has the same high AR.

Slightly off-topic but still quite relevant, the panel closest to OLED which sells commerically at present (apart from the 11" Sony unit), is the Pioneer Kuro line of PDPs. Unfortunately, they are divesting their manufacturing operations.
post #424 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

PDP has low aperture ratio due to the gas cells requiring sturdy walls to maintain structural integrity with existing pressure difference. These walls separate pixels on the horizontal and vertical. In some designs, the horizontal walls are so thick they are easily visible as wide spaces between visible emission rectangles. I've seen this many times before in my up-close examinations of PDP.

As for OLED, its builders have, as the Nikkei mentions, more flexibility in their design. I'm willing to bet quite a sum that the lowest aperture ratio of any commercial design will be nicely larger than any existing or future PDP. LCD, being much more similar in layout design, also has the same high AR.

Slightly off-topic but still quite relevant, the panel closest to OLED which sells commerically at present (apart from the 11" Sony unit), is the Pioneer Kuro line of PDPs. Unfortunately, they are divesting their manufacturing operations.

Yup, I see the same thick ribbing you do on PDPs -- but I'd still be very interested to see some comparative numbers for aperture ratios for plasma and LCD flat panels. For me, it makes the comparison more solid.

As an aside, I find the Pioneer's visible ribs more bothersome than those on the Fujitsu PDPs. It may be that Fujitsu has a higher aperture ratio than Pioneer. But again, it would be nice to have the actual numbers. Perhaps Pioneer made thicker ribs to get higher ANSI contrast numbers. Fujitsu, by comparison, may have been willing to sacrifice ANSI contrast to get something they (and I) value even more: a less fatiguing, smoother, less digital and more natural image. In fact, I recall the Fujitsu white paper also said that they actually wanted some bleed between the pixels. It lowers the ANSI contrast, but makes for, overall, a better picture. Too bad Fujitsu couldn't match the Kuros' blacks.
post #425 of 9473
You guys shoud take some pictures like this of all the different techs (it would be interesting):

LINK

Note that for PDP, bus over rib designs and thin rib technology is possible.
post #426 of 9473
Samsung unveils 31 inch OLED at CeBIT.
My french is bad but they seem to be excited.

Quick review
Quick Video - viewing angles






For the little amount of time we saw it, the TV in question was :
very bright and contrasted,
particularly reactive and with rendering superior to current LCD TVs, according to our eyes,
is extremely thin,
has almost perfect viewing angles



post #427 of 9473
Thread Starter 
Samsung SDI's AMOLEDs reach volume production in 2007, says DisplaySearch
6 March 2008

Sony got all the attention in the fourth quarter of 2007 with the release of its 11-inch XEL-1 TV, but Samsung SDI drove the market, pushing shipments to 20.2 million units, which was up 30% sequentially but down 9% on year. For the year, total revenues grew 6% to US$493.9 million units and total shipments grew 8% to 74.7 million units, according to DisplaySearch. The shipment mix is changing, as AMOLEDs had a 9.7% share of total revenues in the third quarter of 2007, which jumped to 41% in fourth quarter of 2007.

By the first quarter of 2008, AMOLEDs will represent 55.6% of total revenues as LG Display enters the AMOLED market and Chi Mei Electronics, Samsung SDI and Sony continue to ramp up, noted Barry Young, senior advisor, DisplaySearch.

Sony shipped 2,000 11-inch displays for use in the XEL-1 last December and is expected to ship 6,000 panels in the first quarter of 2008. Chi Mei Electronics increased its production of AMOLED panels, shipping 6,000 units in the fourth quarter of 2007 up from 1,600 in the third quarter of 2007. LG Display, formerly LG. Philips LCD, took over LGE's PMOLED fab and is expected to ship 150,000 AMOLED panels for use in the recently announced LG-SH150A in the first quarter of 2008.

AMOLEDs are beginning to hit their stride in the small/medium market with Nokia, Samsung, LG and Sony Ericsson all releasing products in the fourth quarter of 2007, Young stated. Multiple product introductions in the next two quarters may appear, and the panel size will jump to 2.6-inch and larger compared to previously announced 2.2-to 2.4-inch models, he added.

Due to a strong fourth quarter, total OLED 2007 revenues reached US$493.9M, a new record, led by Samsung SDI, RiTdisplay and Pioneer. Showing strong results in microdisplays, eMagin slipped into the top five for the first time.
post #428 of 9473
Well... It's a start! Moving these 11" sets will generate some good press for Sony and allow them to work out some manufacturing bugs on the sets. It will be cool when you can get a 27"-32" 720p or 1080p set for around the same $2500. That would make a great bedroom set for me!

Also, it will be cool if some manufacturers start to do 20"-24" sizes that are suited for computer use.

Either way the tech seems pretty exciting and while my next set will probably be an LCD I can see an OLED in my future (55" and up sets will probably not be readily available or affordable for at least another 5-7 years).
post #429 of 9473
This has just started hitting all of the news outlets:

http://www.oled-info.com/ge/ge_demon...factured_oleds

Some GE researchers have devised a much cheaper way to manufacture OLEDs. It sounds like they are targetting "efficient lighting", not televisions.
post #430 of 9473
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...ing-tweak.html
post #431 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post


I believe that if you ever get an OLED into a blackroom, you'll fine its black to be as invisible as the walls that surround, or the floor evermore.

I have the small Oled Sony TV at home since sunday night. I have to give it back next friday.

I try to mesured contrast ratio but it turn out to be impossible. In my theater room with black walls, ceilling and black carpet I don't see any light coming out of the screen when I display a 0IRE frame. Not even after a few minute. It just look like the TV is off. I try with my extech meter but it can detect any light either. That is better than my 27inch CRT TV for sure. I would quote infinite contraste ratio buy looking at this thing.

TV is very impressive. Dark scenes are gorgeous. The image remind me of my Pio plasma (6th generation) but with better shadow details. Image as a lot of punch. You can watch the TV an any angle without any picture degradation (contrary to LCD tv)

I do mesure closer to 6500k with the Warm2 setting. The expand colors setting provide with a larger gamut than the rec709 standard. It's similar to the color you get from an RS1 for example. Probably more saturated even. Normal colors seem to be better but I didn't measure the primaries and secondaries with that mode (measured were taken with a CA6X probe and the Progressive labs software)

I didn't experiment with the noise reduction or any other gadget. The excellent black could actually be annoying. I check Equilibrium on DVD. The first scene involving the cleric has him running into a dark room. The image stay black for a few seconds. On the OLED TV I could see all the bad compression artifacts. I had to crush black reducing brightness to it's 50 settings (I found 51 to be a better level with test pattern). It amazing how that notch is visible on that technology. Maybe 50 was the exact level. But my point is that a simple mistake in brightness adjustment make compression default very visible. That what you get from a 1000000:1 contrast display.

Don't know when this will be available in 50 inches size. But I'm sure it could sell even at 4 or 5 time plasma prices. This thing is tiny. It's amazing, the quality you get by looking at something that when turn off, just look like a thin piece of shinny plastic.

Bruno
post #432 of 9473
Wow! Thanks for your impressions.

It sure sound like the killer type of tech that many have been waiting for. As I said earlier a 27"-32" 16x9 would be a great set for my bedroom as would a 22"-24" widescreen computer monitor.

Hopefully one day these things will be at 55" or so with a price tag in the $4000 price range. While this might sound overly optimistic just look at what plasmas have done in the past decade. OLED will go the same route and sets will get larger and less expensive.
post #433 of 9473
Thread Starter 
Your detailed review of the Sony unit is much apreciated, and vindicates my statement as quoted. As larger OLED TVs & monitors become commercially available, they will decimate both LCD and PDP on virtually all measures of image quality.
post #434 of 9473
Here's to that but black detail is more important for me - sounds good in both areas from that.
post #435 of 9473
@Bruno, have you tried checking out how motion is handled? Does the Sony OLED does anything to counter the sample-and-hold effect like e.g. using black frame insertion or anything like that?
post #436 of 9473
Yes, your comments are most appreciated. Merci.
post #437 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

@Bruno, have you tried checking out how motion is handled? Does the Sony OLED does anything to counter the sample-and-hold effect like e.g. using black frame insertion or anything like that?

I second that. On paper, it looks like it will handle motion like LCD. Waiting for viewers input to confirm.
post #438 of 9473
I'm keeping the OLED for another 5 days. So I will have more time to play with it.

Gamma on the standard mode and the setting at off is at 2.1.

Good grayscale tracking but the very low IRE like 5-10-and 15 all have a pinkish grey. I don't have access to any gain or offset for individual colors so it can't be corrected. I didn't see any effect on dark scene just yet.

The Screen performs like plasma. If I take the lux reading with an IRE window I read 505 lux. If I take the same measure, but with a full field white instead, it goes down to 300 lux. I know it's the new big thing but in real time viewing it's not a problem to my eyes.
Audio sync with HDMI is really bad. Every time you change menu or change source you ear a squeaking noise. Analog audio perform way better.

It does handle 1080p24 very well. I robot via my PS3 was really fluid.

Maybe you can tell me how I can test the sample-and-hold effect. My personal feeling is that it does perform like an LCD on that regard but it is fast. No motion blur or anything.

I have a cartoon call "Reboot» I used a test screen were a green character pass in front of the screen from right to left then back. I used this shot first to check my Optoma H77 panning performance back then. But I now use it on a regular basis to evaluate how fast and accurate panning is handle with different displays. I used that scene last night on the Sony and the character was display in its full glory. The best I have seen so far. I do have the impression that I’m looking at a bunch of picture being quickly swap in front of my face. Probably because of that "sample and hold effect" you are talking about. I would like to confirm that with a more scientific method.

There is not much difference between a DVD and its HD version on that screen. Obviously the lower resolution is causing this. I also don't feel the 3D effect as much as with my plasma. But that is probably cause by the lower resolution and the size of the screen.

Dark scenes are very impressive. I check Star Wars Attack of the Clone and I never saw so many stars.

The noise reduction is very impressive. With an HQV HD DVD demo disk I ran the noise screen and the Sony internal processing eliminate them perfectly. I have the feeling it's as good if not better than a mosquito Algolith in that regard. I never use that feature usually because it soften the image. But it is still a nice feature when needed.

Bruno
post #439 of 9473
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRT_Nooob View Post

I second that. On paper, it looks like it will handle motion like LCD. Waiting for viewers input to confirm.

Paper is so yesterday... how about some reviews to unconfirm?

ZDNet Sonly XEL-1 OLED TV Review & Comparison:
"The Sony XEL-1 evinced no smearing or blurring in motion even with difficult test material, which helps back up Sony's claim regarding OLED's fast response times." In other words, it handles motion nothing like an LCD; predicting device characteristics from paper is not as reliable as it may seem.
post #440 of 9473
I wonder how it handles sample-and-hold.
post #441 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgosselin View Post

I have a cartoon call "Reboot»

really? that was the most amazing part of your review.

man, i loved that show.
post #442 of 9473
refresh rate measured in nanoseconds. Competitive larger sizes in 2-3 years.
post #443 of 9473
Yeah... For the short term, OLED may be a joke, but after 2009/2010, or so, then we'll most certainly be adopting that or even SED into our homes sooner than later. (SED should be another technology to keep our eyes on).
post #444 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8IronBob View Post

Yeah... For the short term, OLED may be a joke, but after 2009/2010, or so, then we'll most certainly be adopting that or even SED into our homes sooner than later. (SED should be another technology to keep our eyes on).

SED is pretty much finished for good. This video tech has been deemed moot as video tech gains in Plasma & LCD tech along w/low pricing has made SED still-born. Also, the advancements in OLED has leapfrogged SED, which put the final nail in SED's coffin. Doubt seriously if we'll ever see a SED re-born, but who knows...there's been stranger things happen in the CE world.
post #445 of 9473
Thread Starter 
Agreed. OLED is superior to SED in several characteristics.
post #446 of 9473
SED has risen from the grave before. It now has a silver bullet and a stake in it. And worst of all, now a bunch of lawyers standing on it's grave to ensure dead stays Dead.

No more SED fantasies. Some of us want to believe it was the best, and we'll all be deprived of it due to (fill in the conspiracy blank). It only had marketing claims and limited demos. No proof of longevity or even PQ claims under independent conditions.

Other technologies are "more than good enough" for most people, and are further along the development/manufacturing/cost cutting curve for SED to ever catch up. They missed their window, even for professional use. Worse, new technologies like OLED have developed faster than expected, and have far greater potential for great cost reductions while delivering excellent PQ.

I stand by my claim: Years from now, displays will become cheap again, about as cheap as CRTs were when they died out (adjusting for inflation).
post #447 of 9473
Yeah, you're right about HDTVs matching up with CRT SDTV pricing. Right now, your 720p LCD HDTVs are all there already. Won't be too long until 1080p replaces those 720p first-gen HDTVs that most of us already have or had. That's only the first phase in the HDTV development. Definitely gonna see if OLED will even go beyond 1080p. We may expect 1280p or 1600p out of these. Dunno if they're gonna go THAT high in resolution, but just saying.

EDIT: After seeing the Cnet review on the 11" Sony OLED, I'd have to say, even David Katzmaier (the guy who made the video review) said that it was a joke that Sony is up to their old game. He said that it was nice, BUT...it's far too overpriced, and hardly a good size for a TV for the average consumer, and it's not even an HDTV, it's only at most an EDTV, if even that... I mean, unless Sony can come up with at least a 42" 1080p OLED for that same price tag, I'm not really gonna give this tech too much thought.
post #448 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgosselin View Post

Maybe you can tell me how I can test the sample-and-hold effect. My personal feeling is that it does perform like an LCD on that regard but it is fast. No motion blur or anything.

If it performed like an LCD that you would have motion blur...

The sample-and-hold effect is an effect which is produced by our brain/eyes. Basically when displays are "always on" and then show moving images, our eyes try to follow the motion. But the images only move in 24fps (movie content) or 60fps (video content). Basically each frame sits still for a while and then suddenly jumps to the next position. There's no fluid change from one frame to another. Our eyes/brain don't like this approach. As a result we see the image smear a bit, although in reality the display doesn't really show any smearing. CRTs don't have this problem cause they are impulse displays. So our eyes see "black" most of the time and only once in a while a real frame. This can cause flickering. But the image stays very sharp during motion.

Ok, so how to measure this? Please check out the paragraph "Static and Motion Resolution" here:

http://hdguru.com/?p=187
post #449 of 9473
oled is only compared to lcd because it has no glass. thats it.
post #450 of 9473
Yeah... Shame about SED, tho. At least that looked more promising being 55", and 1080p Full HD, iirc. At least that most certainly would've been in the consumers' best interest. 11" EDTV for that price tag is a joke, imho. I'd expect to see a 42" 1080p from another brand and a technology with the same results for a price tag like that, but Sony is Sony, what are you gonna do?

Just lemme know when Sony finally gets into more comfortable price ranges and bigger screen sizes, and Full HD.
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