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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 148

post #4411 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Where they can sell 48 000 55" OLED TVs per month @ such prices?

I think it depends on what you mean by sell. The manufacturers sell primarily to retail outlets. They don't need to sell through to consumers.

I can envision many sets going into demo boxes at retail outlets across the launch countries and many more sets just to fill the retail pipeline so stores have some inventory.
Edited by Rich Peterson - 9/4/12 at 10:40am
post #4412 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa View Post

OLED story from The Verge.

Gee, and here I've been worrying about the wisdom of having bought a 60" Plasma this year, in the face of large-scale, blow-everything-else-out-of-the-water OLED panels - coming Any Day Now! eek.gif

Guess I can sleep again at night - and probably continue to do so for at least the next several years - confused.gif - before Cost & Reliability (Life Span) even begin to reach those of today's sets...
post #4413 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

I think it depends on what you mean by sell. The manufacturers sell primarily to retail outlets. They don't need to sell through to consumers.
I can envision many sets going into demo boxes at retail outlets across the launch countries and many more sets just to fill the retail pipeline so stores have some inventory.

Again, even if they ramp production to the full capacity, yield will cut the actual number of sets in half initially and probably to no higher than 2/3 by year end. And they probably can sell 300,000 globally at $8000.
post #4414 of 5859
Only LG knows what the yields are.

Regardless of what people would like to guess.

Full Capacity is whatever they feel comfortable with running the line at too.
post #4415 of 5859
http://in.reuters.com/article/email/idINBRE8830H220120904


2 samusng oleds stolen on way to berlin ifa.

the makings of a great mystery novel
post #4416 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Only LG knows what the yields are.

Yes, they could in fact be around 10%. What they are not is 90%. Or anywhere near it. Regardless of what people would like to fantasize about.
Quote:
Full Capacity is whatever they feel comfortable with running the line at too.

Full capacity is 8000 substrates per month with 6 panels per substrate. That's public information and confirmed by LG again with their recent announcements. No one ever goes from zero to full capacity in the first month, so we can rule that out. And since yields reduce available units for sale, we can draw accurate assessments of how many TVs they can possibly make.

Max capacity * utilization * yield for each month is the value.

Over the 12 months of 2013, the utilization will likely reach 100% (perhaps even fairly quickly, however it's a function of yield. You don't just push utilization to 100% if yield is 10% unless you want to file bankruptcy.) Yield will likely rise monthly. My estimate is that yield will start around 50% -- and this is based on comments made by DisplaySearch and others about the current state of costs combined with what we know about the current immaturity of IGZO in general -- and rise over the course of the year. It's very possible I'm optimistic on initial yield.

Regardless, as I do, in fact, understand how all this works contrary to the endless trolling of some people would have some believe, I think LG's forecast is probably around 25K units per month -- until additional production goes online. They have not yet announced additional production and for information on tracking that, I rely on reading news reports as well as the fact that Specuvestor and slacker711 track that kind of thing. Until we hear from one of those sources that additional production has been committed, we can correctly assume it has not been.
post #4417 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

http://in.reuters.com/article/email/idINBRE8830H220120904
2 samusng oleds stolen on way to berlin ifa.
the makings of a great mystery novel


They probably ran off to seek Asylum with Apple.
post #4418 of 5859
All speculation on your part with no proof.

More guessing from the peanut gallery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, they could in fact be around 10%. What they are not is 90%. Or anywhere near it. Regardless of what people would like to fantasize about.
Full capacity is 8000 substrates per month with 6 panels per substrate. That's public information and confirmed by LG again with their recent announcements. No one ever goes from zero to full capacity in the first month, so we can rule that out. And since yields reduce available units for sale, we can draw accurate assessments of how many TVs they can possibly make.
Max capacity * utilization * yield for each month is the value.
Over the 12 months of 2013, the utilization will likely reach 100% (perhaps even fairly quickly, however it's a function of yield. You don't just push utilization to 100% if yield is 10% unless you want to file bankruptcy.) Yield will likely rise monthly. My estimate is that yield will start around 50% -- and this is based on comments made by DisplaySearch and others about the current state of costs combined with what we know about the current immaturity of IGZO in general -- and rise over the course of the year. It's very possible I'm optimistic on initial yield.
Regardless, as I do, in fact, understand how all this works contrary to the endless trolling of some people would have some believe, I think LG's forecast is probably around 25K units per month -- until additional production goes online. They have not yet announced additional production and for information on tracking that, I rely on reading news reports as well as the fact that Specuvestor and slacker711 track that kind of thing. Until we hear from one of those sources that additional production has been committed, we can correctly assume it has not been.
post #4419 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

All speculation on your part with no proof.
More guessing from the peanut gallery.

Wrong as usual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

They probably ran off to seek Asylum with Apple.

Funny one Greenland.
post #4420 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Only LG knows what the yields are.
Regardless of what people would like to guess.
Full Capacity is whatever they feel comfortable with running the line at too.

Last semi-official word was when they demoed them at Monte Carlo and the avforum interveiwer ask the LG guy if the yields were still only around 50%.
post #4421 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Last semi-official word was when they demoed them at Monte Carlo and the avforum interveiwer ask the LG guy if the yields were still only around 50%.

I heard from the mother of a friend of some LG worker that the yields are 110%!

Yeah, and I have a bridge in NY to sell you too.

People at companies have been fired for revealing less.

PS. When a line is in pre-production there's a reason it's called "pre-prodution". Yield numbers from then are completely useless. And secret.
post #4422 of 5859
Even if yields were dismal, say for the sake of arguement, 10%. They could sell all of them at a premium. Right now, without having sold even one, it's a total loss.
post #4423 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

All speculation on your part with no proof.
More guessing from the peanut gallery.

There's wild speculation and then there is reasoned speculation. Rogo's tends to the latter. Yours, I'm never really sure to be quite honest. Occasionally interesting as a counterpoint, but rarely bringing the detailed specificity that Rogo does. Plus, he's got a predictive track record of pretty good accuracy going back a long ways.
post #4424 of 5859
Product in the supply chain is the only thing worth paying attention to. Predictions do not contribute anything that help determine when that actually starts happening Some people just like to pretend that they do.

The Rooster on the Dung Heap thinks that it is his crowing that makes the Sun rise each dawn.
Edited by greenland - 9/5/12 at 11:03am
post #4425 of 5859
Samsung asking for injunction against sale of LG OLED for using stolen Samsung OLED tech in South Korea.


http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/05/samsung-asks-for-south-korean-injunction-against-lg/
post #4426 of 5859
The two Korean Giants might end up crippling each other, and end up letting China eat both their lunches, while they are busy engaged in a war of mutual destruction.
post #4427 of 5859
Samdung is one to protest.
post #4428 of 5859
It's only okay if Samsung steals.
post #4429 of 5859
Yea right just like when Job's and Apple stole the GUI from Xerox.rolleyes.gif
post #4430 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Yea right just like when Job's and Apple stole the GUI from Xerox.rolleyes.gif

And the mouse concept. Workers at Xerox warned management not to let those guys come and see a demonstration.
post #4431 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

And the mouse concept. Workers at Xerox warned management not to let those guys come and see a demonstration.

Yes true and about a 100 of them ended up working for Apple out of frustration with the suit's in NYC
who never understood what they were doing after years of trying. Jobs 'got it' in 10 min.
When Robert Cringely interviewed Jobs for his 'Triumph of The Nerds' series
Jobs said 10 minutes into the Xerox Alto demo in he knew all personal computers would
use a mouse and GUI someday.
post #4432 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonyfan View Post

Yes true and about a 100 of them ended up working for Apple out of frustration with the suit's in NYC
who never understood what they were doing after years of trying. Jobs 'got it' in 10 min.
When Robert Cringely interviewed Jobs for his 'Triumph of The Nerds' series
Jobs said 10 minutes into the Xerox Alto demo in he knew all personal computers would
use a mouse and GUI someday.

I believe Apple flat out stole it also, but someone pointed out that Apple made a substantial invest in Xerox at the time and was given a tour of Xerox PARC facility as a courtesy. Then supposedly later paid Xerox something for using the mouse and GUI after the fact and ultimately Xerox lost the lawsuit it brought against Apple years later. I guess that is when Jobs figured he could get anything he wanted by "bending the rules" Like how he brought a house in Tennessee because it had the shortest wait time for a liver and he magically jumped to the top of the donor list or how he repurchaseed his Mercedes every 90 days on paper so he never had to drive with plates under California law. Then the use their legal team to stifle the competition that is to close to their design, yet they are free to steal from others with no consequences. I guess there are perks to being the wealthiest American company.

ipad.jpg
post #4433 of 5859
Apple fanatics who use their products to spite MS are the funniest and most ironic.biggrin.gif

Wow, this topic went off the rails, but that's what happens with no news.
post #4434 of 5859
posts deleted: move on please
post #4435 of 5859
From Digitimes: AU Optronics (AUO) is set to start mass producing small-sized AMOLED panels in the third quarter of 2012 with a production yield rate at around 50%, according to industry sources.

AUO president Paul Peng said in recent Digitimes reports that the company had planned to mass produce 4.3-inch AMOLED panels in the second quarter, but production had to be delayed until the third quarter due to difficulties. The sources said some of these difficulties included raising yield rates to appropriate levels which AUO has now done, and so is ready to mass produce the panels at its 3.5G production line.

The 3.5G line will reportedly be able to produce 7,000 glass substrates a month, making AUO the second company in the world, and the first in Taiwan, to be able to mass produce the technology, said the sources. This will bump up competition in the small-sized AMOLED segment and may help AUO make up for losses incurred over the last seven quarters, added the sources.

AUO will first produce the panels for HTC and may later do so for Sony, the sources speculated; however, the companies have yet to make any official statements on the matter.


50% yield means OLED is still far behind normal productivity rates.
post #4436 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

50% yield means OLED is still far behind normal productivity rates.

As we have been saying.
post #4437 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

From Digitimes: AU Optronics (AUO) is set to start mass producing small-sized AMOLED panels in the third quarter of 2012 with a production yield rate at around 50%, according to industry sources.
AUO president Paul Peng said in recent Digitimes reports that the company had planned to mass produce 4.3-inch AMOLED panels in the second quarter, but production had to be delayed until the third quarter due to difficulties. .....

Wow: 50% seems an extraordinarily high "fail" rate - ?? eek.gif

Query: Assume these roll off in fairly large sheets, which are then cut down to size? (4.3-inch in this case.)

Is the point of failure an ENTIRE sheet, or could any given sheet produce both Good & Bad 4.3-inch panels? (Expect the latter to be the case, as thought that was how plasma & lcd panels are produced: a large panel that is cut to size.)

Do not know whether it necessarily follows, but it SOUNDS Logical to assume that if the failure rate is 50% for 4.3-inch panels, then the failure rate for Larger Panels (say, 55-inches...) would be even higher... confused.gif
post #4438 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Always take anything that is being reported by Digitimes with a huge amount of salt. Find some other sources that confirm anything that they claim, because they have a long history of having posted a lot claims that turned out not have been true.

I am inclined to agree with Greenland here in questioning just about anything Digitimes says. Of course, in the past when I've questioned Digitimes here and explained my stuff is as accurate, I've been mocked (not by Greenland).

Anyway, until we hear someone else stating this, we have a Digitimes rumor. And those have a low hit rate.
post #4439 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

Wow: 50% seems an extraordinarily high "fail" rate - ?? eek.gif
Query: Assume these roll off in fairly large sheets, which are then cut down to size? (4.3-inch in this case.)
Is the point of failure an ENTIRE sheet, or could any given sheet produce both Good & Bad 4.3-inch panels? (Expect the latter to be the case, as thought that was how plasma & lcd panels are produced: a large panel that is cut to size.)
Do not know whether it necessarily follows, but it SOUNDS Logical to assume that if the failure rate is 50% for 4.3-inch panels, then the failure rate for Larger Panels (say, 55-inches...) would be even higher... confused.gif

The failure rate is per panel, not substrate. But with smaller panels, those failures are less costly. You are correct in surmising that if the failure rate is 50% with small panels, it's going to be worse with larger panels. You can imagine why. Take a sheet and cut it into 16 pieces. If 50% of them are bad, then you have 8 good, small pieces. If you only cut it into 4 pieces and the same defects are occur, all 4 pieces are probably defective.

Now, for a number of reasons, we can surmise that no one is running at 0% yield. But the likelihood of yields running terribly low at this point is terribly high. This is consistent with pricing at $8000 and up. It's very possible that the initial yield of the LG line -- start to finish -- was in the 10% range (similar for Samsung). But if we believe they are ramping production now, it's also likely that current yields are much higher than whatever they were initially.

As for AUO, they are new to the party and making small screens for now. Expect their yields to rise fairly quickly. Also, understand the above paragraph about LG and Samsung was to illustrate the point, not to suggest any specific current yields.
post #4440 of 5859
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I am inclined to agree with Greenland here in questioning just about anything Digitimes says. Of course, in the past when I've questioned Digitimes here and explained my stuff is as accurate, I've been mocked (not by Greenland).
Anyway, until we hear someone else stating this, we have a Digitimes rumor. And those have a low hit rate.

Digitimes tend to be HALF-truths. Key is to figure out how they jump the gun to arrive at their conclusion.
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