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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 180

post #5371 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Good luck trying to sell that to a public that doesn't even want to wear lightweight passive 3D glasses.

I agree that there is a market for it, but a very niche one at best.
There's a niche market for this now, but think of this as more of smartphone market before first iPhone. Most people don't realize they'll want this, especially since the HMD equivalent of the first iPhone hasn't arrived yet.
post #5372 of 9438
I think research for those is a good thing, but it should not overlook prevention by uncovering (and even whistleblowing) the modern toxic causes and contributors to those diseases (which in my opinion are prevalent today, and I do blame big pharma and Monsanto among others wink.gif)

These OLED companies wouldn't have thrown said funds into disease research anyhow, so that is neither here nor there. ;(
post #5373 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Samsung Looks to Duplicate LG’s WRGB OLED TV Architecture

"

...I think that is disapointing and boring...
for me this WRGB is nothing more than an alternative backlight for LCD....yes, maybe energy saving...a little brighter...
but for me it has nothing to do with original idea to generate the picture with activly light-emmiting pixels, like in plasma TVs...

I think Samsung simply caved in from the marketing point of view : LG claims to have "OLED"-TV, which in reality are nothing more than improved LCDs...so they would get market share with, in my eyes, a false claim...thats what Samsung must prevent...so they moved in the easier path for the time being....
post #5374 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctma View Post

...I think that is disapointing and boring...
for me this WRGB is nothing more than an alternative backlight for LCD...

You are quite fortunately mistaken.
Quote:
.yes, maybe energy saving...a little brighter...
but for me it has nothing to do with original idea to generate the picture with activly light-emmiting pixels, like in plasma TVs...

It absolutely does. Each pixel has:

1) Four independently addressed light sources (for the sub-pixels). LCD does not, it used 3 "light valves" located a great distance away from the light source.
2) A scheme by which the four light sources are colored to produce the light primaries. While the scheme is radically different from plasma, it's analogous. In plasma, each sub-pixel cell uses one of three different phosphor formulations. A similar gas excitation method is used to "activate" the cell's phosphor to make light. In WRGB OLED, each sub-pixel's light is "excited" via current. It is colored -- immediately and with an infinitesimal distance gap -- via a filter.

WRGB is far, far, far more similar to plasma than it is to LCD. The commonality of parts to LCD (TFT backplanes and color filters) confuses people into believing the image is somehow created in a similar way when it most certainly isn't.
Quote:
I think Samsung simply caved in from the marketing point of view : LG claims to have "OLED"-TV, which in reality are nothing more than improved LCDs...so they would get market share with, in my eyes, a false claim...thats what Samsung must prevent...so they moved in the easier path for the time being....

Samsung "caved in' from a "we can't possibly make TVs using our manufacturing method. It has nothing to do with marketing (other than not wanting to be shut out of the market for 2-3 years) and everything to do with ramping production now rather than in the future. Perhaps printable technology ultimately renders this method a stopgap, but I actually doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Sure, ok, but remember that social interaction is completely redefined these days. Once upon a time people had to meet face to face. You saw people once in a blue moon. Then the world shrank with automobiles, etc., and you saw people more often. Then phones showed up and OMG, people never saw each other so much as chatted on the phone. But they could share with so many more people. And then email, and then txting/facebook/twitter/forums/....yada³. Social isolation some think, but actually people are sharing with ever more people. Who can honestly say WTF a non-clunky headset will do. I want to say that it'll never dominate TV's, but I've been wrong about other things that seemed illogical: I originally (and mostly stubbornly still do) think that Twitter will never get more than 100 users.

Umm, I use social media. I like it. It has amazing powers for good. It's not a very good repalcement for (a) people being together in the same room or (b) actually looking at people. I don't know anyone who thinks it is.
Quote:
Eh. If HMD are lighter than sunglasses someday, and I get to walk around Avatar, or the moon, or or or or or (somethingaboutSandraBullock), then heck....I'm on board...

Uh huh. For 6 straight hours? Planning on marrying someone (or are you already married?!?). Give me a toy I can use or something like Google Glass that adds to reality and we can talk. Shutting out the world? Not a good path for society to go down.
post #5375 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop View Post

Better be quick. Maybe 2 years or so before the closeout specials.

Market forces may dictate "common" technology to drive out "niche" technology, even when it may be sustainable.

I wish I'd have caught the closeout of the JVC LCoS RPTVs at 70" before they disappeared.

2013...just need to figure out what model.
post #5376 of 9438
sorry... OT posts deleted: several reports received
post #5377 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I think we have very different definitions of pointless. I also think you don't really understand that the yield problem with the WRGB designs wouldn't be affected by 4K vs. 2K. Actually, I bet you do understand it. You're just being persnickety.

Well, judging from the price and volumes of the 55" LG 2K OLED they are in single digit yields just because of the WRGB, Samsung yields must be microscopic. 4K yields would be only much more worse than that. I see oledlight at the end of the tunnel though due to the LG building new plant for OLED TVs, they had to make big progress in manufacturing to justify the plant. I still do not see OLED competing with LCD on economic grounds.
post #5378 of 9438
I hope that RGB OLED, and later on, layered TOLED has a future. Adding more subpixels is exactly the opposite of what I want from a display, and Sony's 4K OLED was using pentile rather than RGB. (which probably means that Panasonic's was as well)
post #5379 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

sorry... OT posts deleted: several reports received

No worries. Delete away.
post #5380 of 9438
Quote:
Adding more subpixels is exactly the opposite of what I want from a display

As long as you can't see them from your seating position, and all other things being equal, what difference does it make? If it ruined contrast, or skewed colours, perhaps, but there is no technical reason I know of why that SHOULD happen (which is not to say the manufacturer won't screw it up anyway).
post #5381 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Well, judging from the price and volumes of the 55" LG 2K OLED they are in single digit yields just because of the WRGB, Samsung yields must be microscopic. 4K yields would be only much more worse than that. I see oledlight at the end of the tunnel though due to the LG building new plant for OLED TVs, they had to make big progress in manufacturing to justify the plant. I still do not see OLED competing with LCD on economic grounds.

Maybe OLED will never compete on economic grounds, irkuck, but your insistence on posting about the single-digit yields as related to the WRGB when the only existing reports indicate it has nothing at all to do with that are bizarre.

By all accounts, the yield problem is due to LG trying to ramp IGZO at 55" while also trying to build OLEDs. And their IGZO yield is flat out terrible.

Yet, in the LCD industry, 100% of mfrs. are (a) planning to go to IGZO (b) believing it has no fundamental showstoppers and (c) believing it will ultimately be as cheap -- or perhaps cheaper -- as a-Si.

So... while there are doubtless less than 100% yields at the vapor depo step of the RGB OLED layers on the LG, let's stop suggesting that's somehow really a failed concept, even if its struggling.

As for going to 4K, you mistakenly believe it would much alter the yields. It wouldn't. On the color-filter layer, the yields should be identical, since 4K color filters are trivial.

Perhaps in the short run the IGZO layer at 4K would be a tiny tiny bit more challenging, but again, 4K pixel density at 55" is so low, if they had just decided to ramp at 4K initially, their yields would not be any lower than they are now. Since the vapor depo process has no pixels, it would not be affected by being 4K at all.

It was a marketing blunder by LG to not realize the 4K jump would occur so quickly and that their OLED ramp would occur so slowly. I promise you if they had it to do over again and realized:

1) That they wouldn't ship 10,000 OLEDs till 2014 and
2) That 4K would be on the market in 2013

They'd not have done 2K OLED, especially given their passive 3-D tech.
post #5382 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

As long as you can't see them from your seating position, and all other things being equal, what difference does it make?

You don't have to consciously notice something for it to affect overall image quality.

My eyes and brain are not able to distinguish individual subpixels, but I notice the low pixel fill rate on my plasma, which makes whites appear "masked" when compared to my LCD. And that's with both displays calibrated to the same light level and colour temperature.
post #5383 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by grexeo View Post

You don't have to consciously notice something for it to affect overall image quality.

Truth.
post #5384 of 9438
So, on a slightly different subject given all the assurances 2013 is the year we see in stores 50"+ OLED sets, will the admins create a new OLED sub-forum in the Display Devices for threads by owners, reviews, settings, etc. wink.gif or will the technology be lumped into say the LCD or Plasma ones? eek.gif
post #5385 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

So, on a slightly different subject given all the assurances 2013 is the year we see in stores 50"+ OLED sets, will the admins create a new OLED sub-forum in the Display Devices for threads by owners, reviews, settings, etc. wink.gif or will the technology be lumped into say the LCD or Plasma ones? eek.gif

We've had this conversation before and I'm not an admin, but....

There was a bogus clarion call to immediately create an OLED sub-forum last year for all the 2012 OLEDs... Zero shipped.

And now it's 2013 and we're still OLED free.

I don't know what to make of having a sub-forum for exactly one model of TV... It seems stupid to me... Especially a TV that is expected to ship fewer than 10,000 units all year....

But at some point un-lumping might make sense.
post #5386 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

So, on a slightly different subject given all the assurances 2013 is the year we see in stores 50"+ OLED sets, will the admins create a new OLED sub-forum in the Display Devices for threads by owners, reviews, settings, etc. wink.gif or will the technology be lumped into say the LCD or Plasma ones? eek.gif

We've had this conversation before and I'm not an admin, but....

There was a bogus clarion call to immediately create an OLED sub-forum last year for all the 2012 OLEDs... Zero shipped.

And now it's 2013 and we're still OLED free.

I don't know what to make of having a sub-forum for exactly one model of TV... It seems stupid to me... Especially a TV that is expected to ship fewer than 10,000 units all year....

Regardless, it seems to me that OLED has (just barely) outgrown a sub-forum dedicated to "Flat Panel General & New FP Tech".

And later this year there will be millions of OLED TVs in people's homes.¹

I wasn't part of that clarion call you refer to, but what does seem evident is that several OLED's are coming "soon", and are "here", even if only one model. This means as new information starts showing up before new models are shipped there will need to be a partitioned place for that information so that it can be easily added to once more OLED's show up.

E.g., if there is sudden speculation that manufacturer X will be licensing LG's fabrication patents, then if it turns out true or false later it would be nice to add to it within its own sandbox filled with other such OLED facts (and hooey).

¹ HAHA
post #5387 of 9438
Here's more:

Samsung and LG to discuss OLED dispute in March, may cross-license

Article is here.
Quote:
The battle between Samsung and LG over OLED technology patents has been winding down recently, and it looks like there may be an end in sight. A new report says that Samsung and LG are planning to discuss the OLED dispute as soon as next month, and there has already been chatter of cross-licensing deals on the table.

The dispute has been going on for a while in Korean courtrooms. It started in 2011, when Samsung suspected researchers of leaking information to LG. In 2012, LG served Samsung with a patent suit, and Samsung moved to have LG patents annulled. But, a bit over a week ago, both sides agreed to drop their respective suits and talk about a resolution. Now, it seems those talks will happen next month.

Even better, both LG Display chief executive Han Sang-beom and Samsung Display chief executive Kim Ki-nam have expressed willingness to resolve the dispute. Kim even went so far as to say that Samsung is "considering cross licensing patents". So, the end is in sight.
post #5388 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

Even in the theaters, I opt for passive.

Why even in theaters? Theaters are using a different mechanism and don't lose vertical resolution, so it's precisely what you'd want. There are a couple different techniques used, and both are fascinating, and IMO flawless, particularly when the screen is carefully coated to be silvery.
post #5389 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Why even in theaters? Theaters are using a different mechanism and don't lose vertical resolution, so it's precisely what you'd want. There are a couple different techniques used, and both are fascinating, and IMO flawless, particularly when the screen is carefully coated to be silvery.

It's true that passive in theaters starts from a place of higher resolution, and I'm familiar
with the reflection and gain aspects of specialized screens. But really I'm referring to the impact of brightness on the 3D experience, which I think is critical.

I have greatly preferred passive for this reason, and it seems to me that crosstalk is less of an issue in passive as well.
post #5390 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post


I wasn't part of that clarion call you refer to, but what does seem evident is that several OLED's are coming "soon", and are "here", even if only one model. This means as new information starts showing up before new models are shipped there will need to be a partitioned place for that information so that it can be easily added to once more OLED's show up.

So just to be clear, "several"?"

There are two announced models worldwide, only one of which has a ship date for 2013.

Forecasts expect total shipments globally in the five digits for 2013.

So we are looking at maybe a few dozen people with one for a year.

And you're in a hurry to outgrow having 3-4 threads running here to move them to a barren sub-forum which would have essentially no activity?

Or did I miss something?
post #5391 of 9438
I agree but, how many threads and posts did we have for SED?
post #5392 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post


I wasn't part of that clarion call you refer to, but what does seem evident is that several OLED's are coming "soon", and are "here", even if only one model. This means as new information starts showing up before new models are shipped there will need to be a partitioned place for that information so that it can be easily added to once more OLED's show up.

So just to be clear, "several"?"

There are two announced models worldwide, only one of which has a ship date for 2013.

Forecasts expect total shipments globally in the five digits for 2013.

So we are looking at maybe a few dozen people with one for a year.

And you're in a hurry

Where did you get hurry? I said "barely".

Quote:
to outgrow having 3-4 threads running here to move them to a barren sub-forum which would have essentially no activity?

Or did I miss something?

Nope, you got it. A barren sub-forum is overstatement, but isn't damaging anyway, it would have the activity that OLED is causing now (here), and my point is it's more about what gets added in the future. And the number of actually shipped (or even announced models) isn't indicting of the idea at all. It's the information and discussion around what has to happen (and what *IS* happening) before their release that is just as important. We've got discussions centering around the following (and this is hardly complete):
  • Samsung vs. LG
  • 4 color subs vs. 3
  • printing technology, with a pie in the sky hope of roll-to-roll endless production
  • burn in / image retention
  • Sony's attempts
  • Fabrication issues, including new plants being made and $$ being invested
  • The usage of IGZO
  • Apple's take on this
  • Transparent OLED
  • Flexible products
  • The impact of 4K OLED on smaller vs. larger panels
  • (etc.)

....each with the trickling in of information that is currently being pressed together into this thread. Each one of those items would be growable on there own eventually.

Besides, it couldn't hurt anything. The number of people ignoring the thread "OLED" now will be the same people ignoring the subforum "OLED".
post #5393 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I agree but, how many threads and posts did we have for SED?
Ask Artwood.
post #5394 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

2013...just need to figure out what model.

Best of luck to you. May your timing be better than mine. And then, when that unit has reached it's EOL, maybe display tech will have settled out, OLED or otherwise.
post #5395 of 9438
I really don't care if we have a sub-forum or not. This one thread is plenty for me right now given how little there is to talk about. I much prefer one thread to many.

There will be a time when that changes but it hasn't come yet.
post #5396 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really don't care if we have a sub-forum or not. This one thread is plenty for me right now given how little there is to talk about. I much prefer one thread to many.

There will be a time when that changes but it hasn't come yet.

Doesn't matter that much to me either way yet, but we're at the point where we're probably better off with multiple threads. And I'll prefer multiple threads (for multiple topics) to one any day of the week. I don't care if each one has 3 entries. When new info shows up in one, I'll know what it's for, it'll flag as one of my participated threads, and life will make a lot more sense than it does now.

That said, given that you seem to like creating posts with broad amounts of information in them, I can see why you would be less interested in partitioned discussions at the moment.
post #5397 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop View Post

Ask Artwood.

confused.gif

Perhaps you're thinking of auditor55, the AVS #1, #2 and #3 SED cheerleader.
post #5398 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop View Post

Ask Artwood.

confused.gif

Perhaps you're thinking of auditor55, the AVS #1, #2 and #3 SED cheerleader.

I never got on that bandwagon myself, it was off my radar at the time, but looking back I do sort of wish that SED/FED research had continued, despite the realities in the way. I sort of like the idea of throwing electrons at a phosphor.
post #5399 of 9438
Quote:
Originally Posted by GmanAVS View Post

So, on a slightly different subject given all the assurances 2013 is the year we see in stores 50"+ OLED sets, will the admins create a new OLED sub-forum in the Display Devices for threads by owners, reviews, settings, etc. wink.gif or will the technology be lumped into say the LCD or Plasma ones? eek.gif

I think we should get a 4K flat panel section before an OLED section, because you know, you can actually buy a 4K set. Amazingly, there are already a few owners of the $17,000 LG 84" 4K in the LCD section.
post #5400 of 9438
The LCD section is sufficient for that set. Otherwise, where are the standard def, 720p and full HD panel forums?
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