Originally Posted by slacker711
One big variable in the manufacturing is whether Samsung sticks with LTPS. As of right now, I think that they are planning on a LTPS fab paired WRGB for their first commercial Gen 8 facility. They may also see some benefit from their experience with vapor deposition of the materials. I assume that while removing the shadow mask makes everything simpler that there is still some learning curve to depositing a precise amount of materials at an even depth across a Gen 8 sized substrate.
I presume you are correct about even deposition across a Gen 8 substrate. LG must be struggling even on their current production with this. It can't be all
the IGZO problem.
I'd also add that they should benefit from their continued R&D into OLED materials. While the emitter layers may not be identical, they should be fairly similar and there are a variety of other layers which will benefit from any improvements that Samsung makes to their handset line.
There might be materials benefits, but you make very different choices for RGB and RGBW.
Let me put it this way, I'd be far more skeptical of any other company trying to catch LG using WRGB. The fact that Samsung has manufactured hundreds of millions of OLED's should give them at least some advantage over a company like AUO trying to copy LG.
Seems like AUO is going down the path of trying to invent "printable" RGB on the very, very thin dimes of Sony and Panasonic. There are so many reasons why I don't see this happening quickly -- if at all.
Originally Posted by tgm1024
Take 10 steps back. Both sides of this argument might be talking past each other. Might.
Slacker and I are not talking past each other, for what it's worth.
For me only---my final 2¢ on it: I personally like knowing what Samsung did with the OLED sub-pixels of their small displays, but that's probably about it.
I think that's cool too. Of course it has zero implications for an RGBW TV.
Originally Posted by tgm1024
Are QD amenable to the utopian roll-to-roll printing?
Umm, maybe? No one can say since nothing has ever been really made with quantum dots. I'm not exactly sure how the QD LEDs Sony is using are being made either, but I suspect they are being fabbed on wafers, so that's not really telling us much.
Originally Posted by irkuck
Heh, so where are the LG's mobile RGBW OLEDs? LG RGBW is exactly what I'm saying: very promising tech aiming to sell 100 TVs for 12000$. Samsung at least has tens of millions sold already.
Keep repeating it like a parrot. I'll mail you a box of crackers.
You are grossly wrong.
Well then at least I'm in really good company.
Without real sales these companies could be on the cliff to decide if it is worth struggling with the tech which is eternally promising. Why the Galaxy 4 OLED is significant? It is since the LCD raised the bar significantly this year by jumping to full HD mobile. OLED had to be there or it would be obsolete. Fact that OLED did it means it is still in the game. This is bit similar to the 4K vs. 2K in TV. OLED must be able to be in the 4K segment, otherwise it risks being obsolete.
If Samsung had not
gone full HD and had simply said, "The Galaxy S4 has an even better, even brighter screen this year" and offered the same resolution as last year, I'm quite confident they would still not be losing any sales they would otherwise have had to HTC, Moto, LG... I know all you tech fanboys think your desire for specs and this and that add up to a meaningful percentage of the market. But you don't.
Regarding the mobile vs. TV OLEDs I presume the organic LED material is same in both.
Actually, no. In RGBW, the materials are not identical to the RGB material. Similar, but not identical. You use a more forgiving blue since you never emit a true blue to the end user.
Both TV and mobile are 2K now. Difficulty in the mobile OLED is high density of subpixels. Difficulty in TV are subpixel sizes and resulting uniformity problems. These are different problems indeed.
Again, no. In TV with RGBW, you don't have any OLED pixels, subpixels, etc. You do have the potential for uniformity issues on the OLED layer. But they are not based on pixels.
Originally Posted by mr. wally
can we expect to see oled displays on tablets soon? would that be a samsung mobile based oled display or an rgbw type?
So Samsung has been selling a really pricey ~7" tablet with OLED for a while. No one buys it. It costs too much. The same problem is going to exist until they can reach price parity with LCD tablets of same size (at least premium tablets like iPads and whatever Windows premium tablets catch on going forward). And this is the OLED chicken-and-egg writ large. In TVs, we are watching mfrs. try to push down the learning curve to get costs lower by selling tiny numbers of super expensive TVs in a world where no one really buys super expensive TVs anymore. And that's going to be a struggle.
In tablets, it's worse.
Samsung can make tablet OLEDs happen by basically investing in the capacity to do it and then deciding to price the tablets at parity with other tablets. They will lose money doing this -- for a while -- but eventually they might hit a cost per display that makes sense. Of course, the window is tight. LCD is still getting cheaper
and if we are still to believe that eventually IGZO gets cheaper than LTPS and even a-Si, then not betting on that for backplanes makes the problem worse. Why? Because look out 2 years to next-gen tablet screens based on IGZO with next-gen LED backlights that are 2x more efficient and perhaps even using something like quantum dots for better color and even better efficiency. The basic cell / LC piece is ridiculously cheap from a decade of doing this on a fully amortized plant...
OLED is catching a moving target that is actually an improving, moving target.
In a world where Samsung and Apple were still frenemies instead of outright foes, I think this transition might already be underway. As things stand, however, it's going to be very challenging to make it happen. Of course, a lot depends on whether Apple (or someone like it) drives the LCD industry to make all this real. Maybe Apple already is (they are spending $10 billion on cap ex this year, nearly as much as Intel), but we don't know because they play the cards close to the vest.