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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 197

post #5881 of 9449
This feels like torture. That guy from Alabama who predicts the end of the world as a flood of LCD only options for your flat panels--is appearing less like a lunatic and more like a prophet. Can we at least have edge-lit with color LED's?
post #5882 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by homogenic View Post

This feels like torture. That guy from Alabama who predicts the end of the world as a flood of LCD only options for your flat panels--is appearing less like a lunatic and more like a prophet. Can we at least have edge-lit with color LED's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by homogenic View Post

This feels like torture. That guy from Alabama who predicts the end of the world as a flood of LCD only options for your flat panels--is appearing less like a lunatic and more like a prophet. Can we at least have edge-lit with color LED's?
If the future continues to be LCD, then we also need 120Hz capability (without needing HDTV refresh rate overclocking). The SEIKI 4K HDTV supports native 120Hz external input at 1920x1080, and it does have a lot less motion blur, without the tradeoffs of interpolation. Also, we need higher quality strobe backlights in large-screen HDTV's, so that we can have motion blur elimination benefits. It would be easier at 120Hz, where things would be far more flicker-free.

The motion blur advantages are quite apparent, pursuit camera photographs captured at frame rate matching refresh rate:

60fps on 60 Hz LCD (non-interpolated, no scanning backlight)

120fps on 120 Hz computer gaming monitor: 50% less motion blur

120fps on LightBoost computer gaming monitor: ~90% less motion blur

(Actual photos -- not simulations -- from Motion Blur Comparison: 60Hz versus 120Hz versus LightBoost).
No interpolation involved. It would be great to see more of this type of technology found in HDTV's.

I would like other technologies, other than LCD/LED to start catching up, since LCD has other intrisinic limitations (e.g. black levels), but it is slowly starting to become easier to eliminate motion blur on LCD (as the speed pixel transitions cease to be the limiting factor in motion blur). Eventually, more LCD's will have less motion blur than plasma. (LightBoost displays already has less motion blur than Panasonic 2500Hz FFD plasmas). But the LCD black level problem is extremely hard to solve. It is still extremely expensive to eliminate motion blur on LCD (e.g. Elite LCD HDTV), but LightBoost computer monitors now cost less than 300 from Amazon. It will take a while before good motion blur-eliminating OLED's reach that price level, without using interpolation (not good for games, due to lag).
Edited by Mark Rejhon - 5/23/13 at 7:35pm
post #5883 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by homogenic View Post

This feels like torture. That guy from Alabama who predicts the end of the world as a flood of LCD only options for your flat panels--is appearing less like a lunatic and more like a prophet. Can we at least have edge-lit with color LED's?
That'd be Artwood, a modern technophile sage. wink.gif
post #5884 of 9449
Mark, those photo compares are very impressive. smile.gif
post #5885 of 9449
I'm not really a prophet--i just notice what the ever present sales force is trying to sell and what they are trying to dismiss here at AVS.

When Full array backlighting ended and you could see the 2013 flat edge crap fiasco of LCD offerings--that's when I knew it was the end.

Also when 240 went away and all you had at Walmart was 120.

Then you saw 3-D fade away from great promotion.

Look--the video display industry would like to sell $9,000 55-inch OLEDs but they know that won't sell.

They wish they could sell the current shoot out plasmas as bridge TVs--the only problem is the bridge to OLED is too far and at the end of the bridge people will wonder--why am I buying OLED when what I already have is this good?!

The only way to sell 4K LCD is to make sure that all other LCDs really SUCK. It is quite amazing but the video display industry has been able to sell LCD that sucks by just making it bright! How dumb are Americans? Pretty dumb!

4K LCD doesn't cut it! The only way to sell it is to get rid of the plasma shootout participants.

The only question is when?

Probably 2015.

When it happens the sales force will do everything in their power here to shut me up as they try to sell Chinese 4K LCD that sucks!

They'll tell everybody how great it is. It will be like front projection see through the picture LCD crap TV revisited!

As I bemoan the holocaust the people here that actually do know video will know that I'm right. Many of them will just move on and you won't hear from them anymore--some will join the sales force and try to sell Chinese 4K LCD.

They will ridicule me and try to start ignore campaigns.

The only chance anyone has to live through the holocaust is to hang on to what they've already got and hope that the Chinese public gets wealthy enough to where the Chinese will produce something different.

The only way I'll survive it is if one of the 4K LCD crap producers buys me out to shut me up--you'll know that's what happens if I leave here or try to tell you how great 4K LCD is.

The only way to stop the holocaust from happening is to NEVER buy LCD and crusade against it until you die.

The future will consist of zombies bowing down and worshiping 4K LCD that sucks and you'll feel like you are in the song--"The Sound of Silence".

If you do perchance to go down a dimly lit tenement hall you'll see scribbled on it "Beware the coming LCD only apocalyptic horror story holocaust"--signed Artwood!
post #5886 of 9449
Artwood,

I agree with you, but market doesn't agree with us and many on AVS.
Do you remember when Olivia LCD was sold below $1k?
That TV is close to un-watchable, but at my local Fry's was long line to pay for this TV only as it was LCD and size and below $1k. Those people didn't need D65, gamma or etc to be correct.
This is why LCD TV went from 240 to 120 and from Back to Edge for only reason to make it cost less and appeal to female (wife), who will tell "I don't want that ugly box in my home, but that slim (edge) TV I like" regardless of PQ.

Samsung was 1st who went with Edge lit only (could be due to pressure from Sharp) and look at result - less good PQ, but was marketed as new and cool tech with all mambo-jumbo, and now it's on the top of TV sales.
The next move was all TV manufactures relaxed on QC to lower cost.

How one will justify 55" 2K OLED at $9k vs 50" 4K LCD at $1k ?
Also, by the time OLED finally hit stores 4K LCD may drop in price to $500.

As result I don't see 55"+ OLED will anytime soon to be in stores ... like it or not.
And nothing I can do about it, can't you?
post #5887 of 9449
They sold a lot of Mustang IIs from 1974 through 1978 and that car performance wise sucked!

Sometimes a market is not what people want to buy--sometimes it is what is produced--the forces work both ways.

The reason for this thread's popularity is that most people at AVS who give a hoot about picture quality CRINGE at the thought of LCD only.

The video display manufacturers have brought the horror story on us by their marketing.

They would rather make money selling toilet paper!

I'm in favor of making money but just because any market buys something doesn't mean that the purchase is INTRINSICALLY good.

Sales of LCD doesn't mean that the state of the art is advancing picture quality wise--it's in fact going backwards.

And I don't buy that the way a market plays out is the ONLY way it can play out.

Or that TV is only a commodity that by nature will tend ONLY towards sucking!

Why do speakers have a greater price range than video displays?

People by in large don't predominantly go to the theater to HEAR a movie.

They do go to WATCH a movie.

You have zillions of speaker companies producing speakers in astronomical price ranges but you don't have a large price range when it comes to video displays.

I think that Hollywood is a great INFLUENCE on what types and quality video displays ARE produced.

I don't think Hollywood cares about the quality of speakers that are produced.

To sum up--what we are offered in video displays is MORE influenced by forces OTHER than the masses are dictating.

Because even though the masses may buy what sucks--don't tell me that they LIKE what sucks!

LCD fan's argument here is that the masses LIKE what sucks and that is a good thing and that we should also LIKE what sucks--if it's making money it must be right!

My argument is that MUCH better quality plasma could be made and money could be made doing that--the reason that doesn't happen has less to do with the masses and more to do with Hollywood.

My hunch is that video displays will SUCK until the moment that Hollywood can make MORE through streaming AND the theaters than they currently make through Blu-ray sales and the theaters.

That's when the LCD reign of terror will end. Sadly we may have to endure 15 years of TORTURE--when keyboards are a thing of the past and cars drive themselves--that's when we'll finally get rid of LCD and OLED will MAGICALLY be cheap! And Hollywood will still be making money!
post #5888 of 9449
I don't believe the theaters in my area care much about PQ either. I've tried many of them, and it is lousy, plus having to watch TV commercials before the movies has stopped me from ever going to a theater again. For my money, a $7K DLP projector and a $50K media room was a bargain compared to what I can see in the theaters. Streaming with only lower-end audio choices isn't an option for me, either. So, IMO, the movie industry doesn't recognize us either.
post #5889 of 9449
Maybe LCD sucks so much because it HAS to suck more than the local theaters which ALSO suck!

I compare black levels of plasmas to restrictor plates at Talladega. If they got rid of restrictor plates there is no telling how fast stock cars could go at that track. Can you imagine how fast Indy cars could go there?

I think in a secret bat cave in Japan they have a plasma that has been hooked up with a sub field cloaking device with a trracyor beam that can actually divert the blackness of a black hole into the plasma itself!

They are afraid if it was made public that D-Nice and other calibrators might be transporyted to another dimension and that all the LCDs in the world would simultaneously blow up causing the greatest fall out of suckiness in the history of mankind!

Even wild animals would talk like Mr. Ed the talking horse and rebuke all the humans who brought the LCD plague into the world.

Mr. Ed knew about it a long time ago--that's why he wore those sunglasses!

P.S. Forgive the spelling mistakes--I think I'm smelling LCDs in the neighborhood!
post #5890 of 9449
You can't compare the speaker market to the TV market. Anybody can produce a speaker in their garage. There is no huge capital investment in factories required to produce them. This makes it practical to produce high-end speakers that cost a ton yet sell in very small numbers. That business model will not work for TV production (case in point - Pioneer). Because of the huge investment required, only a few companies can make TV panels and we're stuck with products designed only for the mass-market. There is no real videophile TV market similar to the audiophile market.

If you don't need a TV, then there is a videopile market for projectors. The sky is the limit when it comes to front projector pricing. You can find any quality level you desire if you can afford it.
Edited by Wizziwig - 5/25/13 at 12:38pm
post #5891 of 9449
"There is no real videophile TV market similar to the audiophile market."

There has been one and it still sort of exists (think B&O), for example, but somehow it's harder to maintain. I suspect this is because speakers are long ago prone to voodoo (people believe they hear a lot of things) and projectors are the purview of the home-theater purists (so the high-end of that is really just a niche market within a pretty niche market to begin with). It seems like it's just been hard to build a niche flat-panel maker, even when sourcing someone else's panels. Apparently, the eyes are less susceptible to voodoo and similarly, the "lesser" panels are pretty good.
post #5892 of 9449
^^^And my favorite trick of doing car analogies doesn't work--you can't park a videophile tv in the driveway to impress the neighbors.
post #5893 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

". It seems like it's just been hard to build a niche flat-panel maker, even when sourcing someone else's panels. Apparently, the eyes are less susceptible to voodoo and similarly, the "lesser" panels are pretty good.

I think an argument could be made that once Sony sold its share of the SLCD joint venture with Samsung that it became a niche flat panel maker you described above. Quantum dots are this year's "voodoo".
post #5894 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

^^^And my favorite trick of doing car analogies doesn't work--you can't park a videophile tv in the driveway to impress the neighbors.

But audiophiles can drive an 8000 watt subwoofer to achieve the same effect.

Assuming your windows hold out. And theirs.
post #5895 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfogarty5 View Post

I think an argument could be made that once Sony sold its share of the SLCD joint venture with Samsung that it became a niche flat panel maker you described above. Quantum dots are this year's "voodoo".

Sony is targeting a huge "niche"... too huge to use the word.

They are prominently in my Costco at $400 every time I walk in and also at $7000 or so... with everything in between.

I am thinking more like a brand that only did a Sharp Elite-type product.
post #5896 of 9449
LG Display to Build A Full Production Line for OLED TV in Two Years

Source: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=36817

LG Display plans to offer a complete family of OLED TV products in different sizes by 2015, aiming at replacing its existing LCD TV technology.

Speaking at the at the Society for Information Display (SID) last week, Oh Chang-ho, managing director of LG Display, said that his company could have a range of UHD OLED TV panel products in various sizes and designs by 2015. He added that LG will have a full OLED production line by that time.

Mr. Oh added that LG Display's OLED TV panel was a combined product into which IGZO, white OLED, pixel driving circuit technology and encapsulation technology were applied.

LG Display wants to become the leader in the OLED TV technology field. The company's approach for making OLED panels offers an easier way to mass-produce them, at least compared to the approach rival Samsung had been following so far. However, Samsung could also adopt LG's OLED display-making technology through a possible cross-licencing agreement, which has not been officially confirmed yet.
post #5897 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

LG Display to Build A Full Production Line for OLED TV in Two Years

Source: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=36817

LG Display plans to offer a complete family of OLED TV products in different sizes by 2015, aiming at replacing its existing LCD TV technology.

Speaking at the at the Society for Information Display (SID) last week, Oh Chang-ho, managing director of LG Display, said that his company could have a range of UHD OLED TV panel products in various sizes and designs by 2015. He added that LG will have a full OLED production line by that time.

Mr. Oh added that LG Display's OLED TV panel was a combined product into which IGZO, white OLED, pixel driving circuit technology and encapsulation technology were applied.

LG Display wants to become the leader in the OLED TV technology field. The company's approach for making OLED panels offers an easier way to mass-produce them, at least compared to the approach rival Samsung had been following so far. However, Samsung could also adopt LG's OLED display-making technology through a possible cross-licencing agreement, which has not been officially confirmed yet.

So has it been decided OLED must be 4k or nothing?
It's like a desert mirage getting farther the closer you get.
In 2015 they will probably postpone for 8k.
post #5898 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

So has it been decided OLED must be 4k or nothing?
It's like a desert mirage getting farther the closer you get.
In 2015 they will probably postpone for 8k.

Yes that will probably happen, 8K that' real 3D now bring a projector that cost 4,000 and that will do for me
post #5899 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

LG Display to Build A Full Production Line for OLED TV in Two Years

Source: http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=36817

LG Display plans to offer a complete family of OLED TV products in different sizes by 2015, aiming at replacing its existing LCD TV technology.

Speaking at the at the Society for Information Display (SID) last week, Oh Chang-ho, managing director of LG Display, said that his company could have a range of UHD OLED TV panel products in various sizes and designs by 2015. He added that LG will have a full OLED production line by that time.

Mr. Oh added that LG Display's OLED TV panel was a combined product into which IGZO, white OLED, pixel driving circuit technology and encapsulation technology were applied.

LG Display wants to become the leader in the OLED TV technology field. The company's approach for making OLED panels offers an easier way to mass-produce them, at least compared to the approach rival Samsung had been following so far. However, Samsung could also adopt LG's OLED display-making technology through a possible cross-licencing agreement, which has not been officially confirmed yet.

Thanks for the info.
Looks like another "free" press for LG - nothing more.
As many already ready to replace 2 years old LG 55" OLED at home this would be the right time
Somehow I believe LG less and less no matter what they say about OLED ...
post #5900 of 9449

Forget OLED this is what will make the new world of movies :)  

Top shelf cinema.

The highest quality picture. The most immersive experience. This is Sony 4K. Sony's SXRD 4K movie theater projector technology delivers greater than four times 1080p resolution, anamorphic 3D, and 1080p to 4K upscaling. Nothing else comes close.   "I am pleased to announce that I have found this year's 'Holy Grail' of a home theater projector...Best overall picture ever to grace my current, or previous home theater...4K is an obvious next step for projectors in the home."  – Art Feierman, Projector Reviews

post #5901 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Forget OLED this is what will make the new world of movies :)  

Top shelf cinema.

The highest quality picture. The most immersive experience. This is Sony 4K. Sony's SXRD 4K movie theater projector technology delivers greater than four times 1080p resolution, anamorphic 3D, and 1080p to 4K upscaling. Nothing else comes close.   "I am pleased to announce that I have found this year's 'Holy Grail' of a home theater projector...Best overall picture ever to grace my current, or previous home theater...4K is an obvious next step for projectors in the home."  – Art Feierman, Projector Reviews

Yeah, I've been hoping in 2-3 years to replace my projector and 120x51 screen with an equal sized flexible OLED 4K screen, but in reading this thread I don't see that being in the sub 20K for many more years away.  Of course by then maybe Red will actually release their 4K laser projector that may look better than OLED, or not.

post #5902 of 9449
Not sure what to make of this but I thought some might find it interesting.

OLED TVs don't make economic sense: Experts

Source: http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Science%2Band%2BTech/Story/A1Story20130528-425635.html

Samsung Electronics and LG Electronics, two Korean companies that are leading the world's television market, appear to be in a forced race to churn out sets fitted with organic light emitting displays, but experts believe the competition will soon become meaningless

"The technology simply will not stretch that far to make it affordable for the mass consumer market," said one display expert, declining to be identified.

He figured that at most, the two companies would each sell 100 units once Samsung launched its sets later this year as it has said.

Each company claims to have the lead in OLED TVs despite experts being sceptical of whether OLED will really set new standards in display technology, mostly because they seem impossibly expensive for screens that are larger than phones, tablets and cameras.

LG has already started to ship its flagship 55-inch flat models that sport a price tag of more than US$1,000 (S$1,260). It is now taking orders for curved OLED TVs. LG Electronics was the first to showcase such sets to the world.

"Samsung doesn't want to be in this game. It knows that OLED TVs are not the answer. For LG too, it knows there's no money coming from OLED TVs, but it has to compete and beat Samsung, so that's the rationale behind their rivalry in this segment," the industry expert added.

Whether these TVs will become competitive in overseas markets is another prolematic issue

"I'm not sure whether Samsung will ship OLED this year to Europe. It would confuse the 4K2K message to do so. Samsung's presentation at IFA GPC seemed to be very carefully thought through," Paul Gray, head of the European TV segment at DisplaySearch, told The Korea Herald.

He said OLED was not expected to endure, adding that LG Electronics' shipments were "scarcely 100" in the first quarter.

In comparison, DisplaySearch forecast the global market for Ultra HD TVs to grow to see worldwide shipments reaching 3.9 million units next year.

By 2015, the shipments are expected to hit 6.88 million to further grow to 9.87 million in 2016. For this year, it sees shipments at around 930,000.

Ultra HD TVs are four times sharper than full HD TVs and cheaper than those with OLED displays.

Samsung recently unveiled an 85-inch Ultra HD TV - the world's first - and is now set to release 55-inch and 65-inch models next month, all at "reasonable and affordable prices," according to Kim Hyun-seok, Samsung Electronics' head of the TV division.

The upside of OLED is that it's rated to be up to 1,000 times faster than the conventional LED-backlit LCD panels, is superior to plasma screens that are fast dying in the market, devoid of blur, detailed and energy saving.

The downside is the price and the low manufacturing yield not to mention there is currently almost no content that is compatible with the high-end colour range offered by OLED TVs.
post #5903 of 9449
Irkuck would agree with the above.

Slacker would tell you the capex hasn't been cut.
post #5904 of 9449
Rogo, you would not agree? Economics of OLED was always in question, there were always signs OLED is an ego battle between LG and Sammy.
post #5905 of 9449
I have a hard time buying a statement that say's "4K is four times sharper than full HD TV's".
post #5906 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I have a hard time buying a statement that say's "4K is four times sharper than full HD TV's".

2x is what they should say since each pixel is 1/2 as big (resolution = 2x)
Area quadruples but that is complete marketing b.s.
The more I learn about the sales & marketing force the more it sours.
Step back twice as far from the tv. Hey you have a 4k tv. How bout that sales pitch..
Edited by borf - 5/28/13 at 7:31pm
post #5907 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Rogo, you would not agree? Economics of OLED was always in question, there were always signs OLED is an ego battle between LG and Sammy.

I would agree, irkuck.

I was just crediting you and slacker, for the specific sentiments you guys have noted over and over.
post #5908 of 9449
Exactly one month ago today LG released this press release entitled:

LG BEGINS SALES OF WORLD’S FIRST CURVED OLED TV

It went on to say "LG Electronics (LG) announced that it will begin accepting pre-orders for its 55-inch (54.6-inch diagonal) Curved OLED TV (Model 55EA9800) in South Korea, with deliveries to begin next month."

I don't see how they could say deliveries would occur "next month" unless they actually have units built or are really close to being completed and ready for packaging or at least have some confidence they can achieve that. But I guess this is LG we are talking about. rolleyes.gif

If any deliveries have occured I would think we would have heard something from someone in Korea. Looks like LG has again made promises they can't keep. But I very willing to say I'm wrong if someone can find evidence any of these have actually shipped.
Edited by Rich Peterson - 5/29/13 at 6:37am
post #5909 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I have a hard time buying a statement that say's "4K is four times sharper than full HD TV's".

2x is what they should say since each pixel is 1/2 as big (resolution = 2x)

No. Resolution is about the ability to resolve. For any given fixed real world size screen (pick one----a foot by a foot if you like):

If it's displaying 200x100 pixels, it's providing two times the information that you get with 100x100. That's "twice" the ability to resolve, "twice" the clarity (or whatever misapplied metric they apply these days), etc. 200x200 is providing 4 times so. Assuming of course that all other mitigating factors are removed, such as visual acuity from distance, etc.

Accept it or not, this stupid argument keeps showing up and it reminds me of the "Plasma is better, No it's not" that shows up everywhere.
Edited by tgm1024 - 5/29/13 at 7:06am
post #5910 of 9449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Exactly one month ago today LG released this press release entitled:

LG BEGINS SALES OF WORLD’S FIRST CURVED OLED TV

It went on to say "LG Electronics (LG) announced that it will begin accepting pre-orders for its 55-inch (54.6-inch diagonal) Curved OLED TV (Model 55EA9800) in South Korea, with deliveries to begin next month."

I don't see how they could say deliveries would occur "next month" unless they actually have units built or are really close to being completed and ready for packaging or at least have some confidence they can achieve that. But I guess this is LG we are talking about. rolleyes.gif

Well, heck. They obviously mean, "we're finally, almost, maybe going to ship". So cut them slack. smile.gif LOL...
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