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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 207

post #6181 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

The burn in is not from the loop but from a menu generated by the tv that runs vertically on the left side of the screen. It is left on all the time with the sets in torch mode about 8 to 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I will post a pic of the menu when I get back but not of the burn in as I was not able to get a good picture of that. No question it is a concern although it is faint and something I did not see while watching the loop of a Blu ray, just on a white screen. More next week.

Thanks for the report. Not being able to get a pic of the burn in makes it sound like it is really faint. Is that your impression when there? Also, I understand they have a few models there. Is it visible on all of them? I believe they had one in a window display so it would have been on 24x7. Not that it should have burn in yet regardless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I think burn in is the real issue with this technology; and I don't see how it can be resolved.....

my opinion only: and yes I would buy one at these inflated prices if I thought it would outperform plasma or LED: and last as long...

I agree burn in is likely the major issue with the WRGB technology. The obvious solution is increasing lifetime of the materials. There are also compensation technologies being developed such as this from Ignis Innovation. The yellow (red/green) material being used has a lifetime of 85,000 hours to 95% brightness where it might be a minor issue and 1,450,000 hours to 50% brightness so this sort of compensation could mitigate minor burn in issues for a long time.
post #6182 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I will be posting a full report with pics when I get back. Please not that burn in appears to be an issue as it is visible on an all white field. Minor but there nonetheless.

I very much appreciate your first-hand reports and I'm quite sure all readers of this thread agree. Thank you!
post #6183 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I will be posting a full report with pics when I get back. Please not that burn in appears to be an issue as it is visible on an all white field. Minor but there nonetheless.

You're in Wayne? Where is it that you're looking at this TV? I'm in Paoli btw.
post #6184 of 9429
It seems that only one of the salesmen, at least when I am there, really knows these sets well. He volunteered the burn in info to me but I was pushing the envelope a bit to get a picture for obvious reasons. The store is really quite crowded and the oleds attract some attention, after the 85 inch Samsung 4K for a cool 38,000 pounds or $54,000. I must say, that is quite a display. I will try to get there early tomorrow to see if we can put the white screen up and see if he will allow me to take a picture.
post #6185 of 9429
Quote:

That's not what any reasonable person means by review...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

His review was dated the 16th OF MAY!  Is that even possible???????  It's from the LG website so presumably the set has to be actually purchased before the review was written.

A non-owner, posting on the mfr. website. Clearly not the hurdle I was speaking of...

So to clarify for the cement-skulled:

An independent, third-party review done by a reputable reviewer of televisions and/or home-theater gear. There would be instrumented testing as part of the review as well as subjective evaluation. Examples include: Home Theater Magazine, Gary Merson's HD Guru, Widescreen Review, or any similar entities based outside the U.S."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Regarding LG's OLED set at Harrod's in London, JWhip wrote:
C'mon, folks, here's your chance. Who's willing to fork over $16K for a set to be delivered from Harrod's to their home in the US? Anybody? There must be some rich I-gotta-be-first forum member here willing to take the plunge, right? We less well off readers would be very appreciative.

I doubt you can actually buy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I think burn in is the real issue with this technology; and I don't see how it can be resolved.....

The same way it's resolved on plasmas: To get it to the point where it occurs effectively never. I have no real idea if the Harrod's unit is permanently damaged or if it's a plasma-like "image retention" phenomenon, but with enough lifespan to the OLED material and (more importantly) an even wear curve, this becomes a non-problem. That said, buying a first-generation product is again proved to be stupid given the insane pricing and the likelihood it's the worst-performing OLED TV LG will ever sell.

And, yes, I wrote stupid.
Quote:
my opinion only: and yes I would buy one at these inflated prices if I thought it would outperform plasma or LED: and last as long...

I forget what you own, but the "outperformance" is so slight, I can't imagine why you'd pay 5x what a good plasma runs even if it lasted as long. That's equivalent to paying $300,000 for a 5-series competitor because it "outperforms" the BMW (well, perhaps as much as $400,000 depending on options). I can see paying a nice premium for some amount of outperformance. In fact, I applaud that kind of purchasing among those who can afford it.

But 3-5x for a decidedly marginal gain in performance makes no sense to me, not even accounting for possible longevity issues.
post #6186 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Burn in? Really bad news.

I'm about as optimistic as anyone here on the future of OLED TV, but if it shows visible burn-in after just a few months of running the demo loops, that seems to me to be an absolute showstopper for any hope of an OLED future until resolved.

I think burn in is the real issue with this technology; and I don't see how it can be resolved.....

 

Technologies take time.  And forget the "it's been promised for 10 years" business.

 

Keep in mind just how bad the old CRTs used to burn in.  In the 70's and early 80's I saw not-too-old yet burned in computer monitors left and right.  By the time the 90's showed up, this was a far less common and much harder to do.  I actually had a java IDE up with the internal panes in the exact same position for most of the day for years with no burn-in.

post #6187 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Burn in? Really bad news.

I'm about as optimistic as anyone here on the future of OLED TV, but if it shows visible burn-in after just a few months of running the demo loops, that seems to me to be an absolute showstopper for any hope of an OLED future until resolved.

It's not really surprising. Somewhere on this forum I posted a link to a FAQ on LG's website that clearly warned about burn-in risk. They eventually pulled that section from their site. Now we know why. mad.gif

Our only hope is that this is temporary retention like you often see on Plasma.

What kind of idiot working at LG would put static menus on a TV prone to burn-in? Don't these type of menus usually have a time-out, orbiter, or screen-saver?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I forget what you own, but the "outperformance" is so slight, I can't imagine why you'd pay 5x what a good plasma runs even if it lasted as long. That's equivalent to paying $300,000 for a 5-series competitor because it "outperforms" the BMW (well, perhaps as much as $400,000 depending on options). I can see paying a nice premium for some amount of outperformance. In fact, I applaud that kind of purchasing among those who can afford it.

But 3-5x for a decidedly marginal gain in performance makes no sense to me, not even accounting for possible longevity issues.

For me, it's not even about performance. I'd be willing to pay a significant premium just so I don't have to deal with the inherent limitations of plasma or LCD. Plasma is incompatible with my eyes and ears (I see DLP-like rainbows/flashes and hear annoying buzzing) so they are not worth buying for me at any price. I also can't live with LCD viewing angles, uniformity-issues, and crappy dark-room black levels. I realize I'm in the 1-2% of the population affected by these issues. Too bad I'm not in the 1-2% that can afford this OLED. frown.gif
post #6188 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

For me, it's not even about performance. I'd be willing to pay a significant premium just so I don't have to deal with the inherent limitations of plasma or LCD. Plasma is incompatible with my eyes and ears (I see DLP-like rainbows/flashes and hear annoying buzzing) so they are not worth buying for me at any price. I also can't live with LCD viewing angles, uniformity-issues, and crappy dark-room black levels. I realize I'm in the 1-2% of the population affected by these issues. Too bad I'm not in the 1-2% that can afford this OLED. frown.gif

OK, so those are all fair points. You're in a small minority, but one that wants something different for totally legitimate reasons.

I will say this: Somewhere around the 5th year of OLED TV sales, the pricing should be more compatible with the 50%, rather than 1-2%. So keep holding out hope.
post #6189 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I will say this: Somewhere around the 5th year of OLED TV sales, the pricing should be more compatible with the 50%, rather than 1-2%. So keep holding out hope.

Right, but for every day these TV's are delayed, this whole schedule shifts further down. This is why I keep hoping for LG or Samsung to ship something - even if it's not affordable to anyone. At least it will start the clock ticking and begin the process of gradual price reduction. Instead we've been in this constant holding pattern for years now. Meanwhile LCD just gets cheaper and cheaper, making it harder for any competing tech to enter or remain in the market.

It seems to me that in order for OLED TV's to have any chance, they would need to follow a pattern similar to the mobile space. The price difference to LCD doesn't seem very large at those sizes and this at least allows them to coexist in the market. Can you imagine if they had introduced OLED phones at 5x the price of LCD phones?
post #6190 of 9429
Plasma is like being trapped in Stalingrad during World War II.

Who can stop the LCD hordes--they're everywhere!

A Totalitarian victory of an LCD only world will be the death of video quality civilization!

Rogo tells the truth! OLED ain't happening and the cost of it is ridiculous!

If LCD does take over the world they should shut the whole AVS Forum down for 5 minutes so that everyone who cares about video picture quality can mourn its passing.

I think that some of the people are waking up to the fact that I--the Paul Revere of video quality is truly shouting an ominous warning--the LCDs are coming--the LCDs are coming!

Please BEWARE of the coming LCD only worldwide domination apocalyptic horror srory holocaust of video quality!

4K LCD will suck and will cost a lot and everything else will suck MORE!

Get ready for a video world that SUCKS!

Stop the OLED fantasizing! Get ready to take it! I can't stop crying! The video world is ending!

What really hurts is thinking about all the people at AVS who post in and who eventually--when their plasmas die--will HAVE to endure LCD that sucks!

It's like people who like big cars who have to endure small cars that suck!

This is the saddest I've felt since the WKRP episode where they were throwing turkeys out the helicopters!

That's what the LCD lovers are going to do to plasmas!

It's worse than the Hindenberg!
Edited by Artwood - 7/9/13 at 9:15am
post #6191 of 9429
Yah they need to start smaller on the OLED screens.. hell maybe computer monitors using OLED and move up from there.
Granted if burn-in is an issue on OLED I'd hate to have my Windows Start menu burned into my monitor.
post #6192 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Right, but for every day these TV's are delayed, this whole schedule shifts further down. This is why I keep hoping for LG or Samsung to ship something - even if it's not affordable to anyone. At least it will start the clock ticking and begin the process of gradual price reduction. Instead we've been in this constant holding pattern for years now. Meanwhile LCD just gets cheaper and cheaper, making it harder for any competing tech to enter or remain in the market.

I agree the clock needs to start ticking. That said, LCD is, I think, nearly at the bottom of the pricing curve. It's really challenging to enter the market but I don't think LCD getting another 10-30% cheaper matters all that much.
Quote:
It seems to me that in order for OLED TV's to have any chance, they would need to follow a pattern similar to the mobile space. The price difference to LCD doesn't seem very large at those sizes and this at least allows them to coexist in the market. Can you imagine if they had introduced OLED phones at 5x the price of LCD phones?

They'd have gotten nowhere in mobile had that happened, but remember the display is just part of the phone price. In a Galaxy S4, for example, the OLED screen is about $75 of $235. In an iPhone 5, the LCD is about $45 of about $205.
post #6193 of 9429
I was able to take some pics showing the burn in quite clearly. I would say that it is burn in and not temporary image retention as it is rather dark as the pics will show. I will post one once I am able to figure out how to do that from my iPad, otherwise, it will have to wait. Interestingly, I asked why the sets menu bar was left on all the time to do such damage. I was told that LG insisted on it. If that is true, that was DUMB.
post #6194 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I was able to take some pics showing the burn in quite clearly. I would say that it is burn in and not temporary image retention as it is rather dark as the pics will show. I will post one once I am able to figure out how to do that from my iPad, otherwise, it will have to wait. Interestingly, I asked why the sets menu bar was left on all the time to do such damage. I was told that LG insisted on it. If that is true, that was DUMB.

Download Dropbox and use Photo Upload or use Photo Stream and get the pictures out of there (easy to do on a Mac, more annoying on a PC).
post #6195 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Interestingly, I asked why the sets menu bar was left on all the time to do such damage. I was told that LG insisted on it. If that is true, that was DUMB.

Wow. That is just further evidence that LG doesn't really want to sell these TV's at all. They are just using them as a tool in their public relations and marketing agenda - to make the company seem technologically superior to their competitors. I'm surprised they don't plaster their logo across the entire screen. rolleyes.gif
post #6196 of 9429
here are the photos from JWhip: he is emailing them from a train heading to Edinburgh: this first one shows the menu: more to come

post #6197 of 9429
photo shows burn in on left courtesy JWhip

post #6198 of 9429
I would like to thank Mark for posting the pics. It is not easy to type on a bouncy train to Edinburgh. A note on my observations. The first day, they had been playing The Avengers Blu ray on that screen. The burn in was not as noticeable during the film or on a one color screen but clearly visible. When the menu went back up and was on for a couple of days, it was much worse, as noted in the pics. It may fade a bit depending on the screen content but is to my mind permanent. As far as I am concerned, that screen is ruined. The salesman agreed. I will post quite a few pics in a full article once I return in a few days.
post #6199 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

When the menu went back up and was on for a couple of days, it was much worse, as noted in the pics.

Honest question: what would happen with current generation plasma when taken new out of the box and tortured with a white-on-black static menu in store-torch-mode for days? From the pictures it seems that there was no orbiter at work either. Wouldn't the plasma burn in as well?
post #6200 of 9429
They will burn in as well. Though, probably not as quickly.
It is uneven wear that is permanent.

I have seen plasma's at best buy that are burned in.
I am careful with Plasmas.

- Rich
post #6201 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

They will burn in as well. Though, probably not as quickly.
I don't think you can say that without running a plasma under the same conditions as those OLED sets. People make claims about plasmas being highly resistant or even "immune" to image retention/burn-in these days, which is not the case in my experience.
I think it's just that the people making those claims happen to have viewing habits that are not conducive to producing burn-in - or they simply don't notice it.
post #6202 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post

Honest question: what would happen with current generation plasma when taken new out of the box and tortured with a white-on-black static menu in store-torch-mode for days? From the pictures it seems that there was no orbiter at work either. Wouldn't the plasma burn in as well?

yes: and even LCD's can burn in, although we have not seen reports of LCD burn in for some time

what gets my attention is that a company would allow a new technology demo show this so clearly: it is cause for concern in my opinion

we have seen hundreds of threads where plasma owners have reported burn in issues on $2k plasmas that turned out to be (temporary) image retention

imagine the outcry if this new technology suffers burn in quickly on an over $10k panel
post #6203 of 9429
JWhip's photos look like blue was depleted which is consistent with reports of issues with premature blue aging.

- Rich
post #6204 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

JWhip's photos look like blue was depleted which is consistent with reports of issues with premature blue aging.

- Rich

Those shots look exactly like the sort of burn-in you see on OLED phones. It mostly shows up on blue backgrounds.

I hope JWhip took some shots of the top/bottom borders of the screen. I'm curious if the letter-box bars from the blu-ray disk also caused any burn-in.

JWhip, did you notice any ABL behavior by the set? - where brightness of the screen would decrease when displaying full-screen white.
post #6205 of 9429
If I recall correctly, LG uses white phosphors with RGB filters. I agree that the set has likely been abused and that this could be he result of that. However, given that this is the only store that I know of that has tis set on display and on sale, one would think that more care or thought would have gone into this. BTW, it was the only set there with burn in/image retention. They have every set imaginable, from the new Sammy 75" LED, the 85" 4k, the ZT & VT plasmas, the Sammy 8500, 84" Sony and so on.
post #6206 of 9429
Wizziwig, he first picture shows no evidence of burn in at the top and bottom of the screen. I saw none while there. I also didn't notice any ABL but frankly, didn't look for it as I didn't think it w an issue for OLED. I guess that will have to wait for my next trip, whenever that might be. Not for a good bit though.
post #6207 of 9429
Perhaps Rogo could chime in regarding BURN-IN with current plasma technology. If I remember correctly he owns a 65" plasma and actually tried very hard to induce burn-in and could not accomplish it.
post #6208 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I agree the clock needs to start ticking. That said, LCD is, I think, nearly at the bottom of the pricing curve. It's really challenging to enter the market but I don't think LCD getting another 10-30% cheaper matters all that much.

The prices bottom out but panels are evolving, e.g. 4K may soon be de rigueur in LCD. Which will be exponentially difficult for OLED to climb up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

They'd have gotten nowhere in mobile had that happened, but remember the display is just part of the phone price. In a Galaxy S4, for example, the OLED screen is about $75 of $235. In an iPhone 5, the LCD is about $45 of about $205.

There is no real market for the S4 OLED display and so it is hard to verify its price.
post #6209 of 9429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

I also didn't notice any ABL but frankly, didn't look for it as I didn't think it w an issue for OLED.

I'm taking nothing for granted. These TVs need to be checked for all the usual LCD/Plasma bugs and we'll likely discover new OLED specific ones as time passes.

Any sign of visible DSE during camera panning scenes? Hopefully they have good uniformity (ignoring the areas with burn-in).

How would you rate motion clarity and quality vs. Plasma and LCD?
post #6210 of 9429
I will get to that next week.
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