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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 215

post #6421 of 9473
LG to mass-produce OLEDs from 2014

THE KOREA TIMES 2013-08-01 15:35


LG Display CEO Han Sang-beom, fifth from left, pulls a lever with Gyeonggi Province Governor Kim Moon-soo, fourth from left, and other LG executives and guests to celebrate the first installment of equipment to be used on a new OLED display-manufacturing line at the firm’s display complex in Paju, Gyeonggi Province, Thursday.

Quote:
By Kim Yoo-chul

LG Display, the world’s biggest display manufacturer, said Thursday it will start mass-producing OLED (organic light-emitting diode) screens to be used in televisions from the latter half of 2014.

“Our new OLED manufacturing line using the so-called eighth-generation glass-cutting technology will go online in the second half of next year after various pilot tests,” company spokesman Lee Sang-wook said.

The eighth generation technology screen measures 2,200 millimeters in width and 2,500 millimeters in height, which is customized for TV screens over 50 inches in sizes.

The new line has a monthly production capacity of 26,000 glass sheets. Total investment for the new line will reach 700 billion won, Lee said.

Unlike LG, its rival Samsung Display has yet to announce a plan to mass-produce OLEDs.

The mass production plan was unveiled at a ceremony to celebrate the installment of the first production equipment for the new line at the company’s main display complex in Paju, Gyeonggi Province.

Present at the ceremony were Gyeonggi Province Governor Kim Moon-soo; Paju City Mayor Lee In-jae; LG Display CEO Han Sang-beom; Idemitsu Kosan, Vice President Matsumoto Yoshihisa; Merck Korea CEO Michael Grund; and other executives from LG’s top-tier local partner firms.

“As you know, LG was the first firm to release 55-inch OLED screens. Now, we are moving toward mass-production. It will be tough. But we will closely collaborate with our partners to complete the plan as scheduled,” the CEO Han said during the event.

LG, which bought Kodak’s OLED patent portfolio in 2009, has been paying more attention to the white-OLED with color filter TV panel process using both phosphorescent and fluorescent materials that can help ease the mass production of OLED TV screens as compared to the “RGB” approach being pushed by its biggest bitter cross-town rival Samsung Display.

LG Display said it has recently developed a hybrid technology designed to cut costs and generate better production yields.

The spokesman said this is a “WRGB-OLED,” which uses advantages of white- and RGB-based OLED technologies, respectively.

According to an estimate by iSuppli, a market research firm, it hopes to produce 75,000 OLED TV units annually.

“The success of Samsung and LG in implementing a large-sized curved OLED was thought to be a meaningful achievement in the display industry. But both companies still face challenges with mass production and market availability of curved OLED TVs isn’t near-term possibility,” said Vinta Jakhanwal, analyst at iSuppli said.

“Limited availability, as well as the high retail pricing, of OLED TVs will likely restrict shipments by Samsung and LG during the next few years. Another point is that by the time OLED TV production achieves efficiencies in large-scale production, the industry’s current mainstream of LCD TVs will have had an opportunity to become even more competitive in performance and price,” Jakhanwal stressed.
post #6422 of 9473
LG begin work at plant to start mass production of OLED TVs from second half of 2014....

http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/02/lg-oled-plant-2h-2014/

EDIT: Beat me to it, 8mile13. :-)
post #6423 of 9473
Are numbers in the report correct:

The eighth generation technology screen measures 2,200 millimeters in width and 2,500 millimeters in height, which is customized for TV screens over 50 inches in sizes.

The new line has a monthly production capacity of 26,000 glass sheets.


According to an estimate by iSuppli, a market research firm, it hopes to produce 75,000 OLED TV units annually.

75 000 TVs annually from monthly production of 26 000 glass sheets each 2200x2500 mm???
post #6424 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Are numbers in the report correct:

The eighth generation technology screen measures 2,200 millimeters in width and 2,500 millimeters in height, which is customized for TV screens over 50 inches in sizes.

The new line has a monthly production capacity of 26,000 glass sheets.


According to an estimate by iSuppli, a market research firm, it hopes to produce 75,000 OLED TV units annually.

75 000 TVs annually from monthly production of 26 000 glass sheets each 2200x2500 mm???

 

Not sure of the numbers per se, but I suspect you-know-who is going to stomp on the word "hope" above with both feet.  :)  And for good reason.  IMO, in this OLED world of "oops, can't ship yet", "oops, not ready", "oops, burns in", "oops, can't mount", "oops, ______" (fill in with erasable marker on your screen), you don't get to say that any longer without people cringing a little.

post #6425 of 9473
So...is that an admission that the flat panel OLED will actually launch in 2014 now? rolleyes.gif
post #6426 of 9473
I can't wait to see OLED> but more importantly 4K OLED.

* The fact that you can sit within 6 feet of a 60"-70" ~ 4K display without pixel moire (if properly built) is an exciting concept!


I can't wait to buy a nice 70-80" incher 4K~OLED Display and finally have a real immersive theatre experience. wink.gif
post #6427 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

So...is that an admission that the flat panel OLED will actually launch in 2014 now? rolleyes.gif

 

No, it means that Crystal LED will come back and rule the roost in 2015.

 

ok, ok, ok....

post #6428 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by theatredaz View Post

I can't wait to see OLED> but more importantly 4K OLED.
* The fact that you can sit within 6 feet of a 60"-70" ~ 4K display without pixel moire (if properly built) is an exciting concept!
I can't wait to buy a nice 70-80" incher 4K~OLED Display and finally have a real immersive theatre experience. wink.gif

Early start of weekend smoking confused.gif
post #6429 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

No, it means that Crystal LED will come back and rule the roost in 2015.

ok, ok, ok....
Someone, quick, necrobump that thread. I could use more laughs.
post #6430 of 9473
LG has begun deliveries of the TV. No word on numbers.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/02/5619701/first-us-consumers-receive-delivery.html
post #6431 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

LG has begun deliveries of the TV. No word on numbers.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/02/5619701/first-us-consumers-receive-delivery.html

I call BS. They need to post pictures of a delivery or unboxing or it never happened.
post #6432 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

LG has begun deliveries of the TV. No word on numbers.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/08/02/5619701/first-us-consumers-receive-delivery.html

Nonsense. It's expected to be another month or so before customers receive the TVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Are numbers in the report correct:

The eighth generation technology screen measures 2,200 millimeters in width and 2,500 millimeters in height, which is customized for TV screens over 50 inches in sizes.

The new line has a monthly production capacity of 26,000 glass sheets.


According to an estimate by iSuppli, a market research firm, it hopes to produce 75,000 OLED TV units annually.

75 000 TVs annually from monthly production of 26 000 glass sheets each 2200x2500 mm???

6 per sheet... 156,000 per month, 1.8 million per year @ 100% yield.

Let's assume the goal is 75,000 per month, 50% yield, 900K for the first full year the line is up and running.

Although, that said, perhaps 75,000 is the production goal for 2014, since the 8G line won't be up until late in the year.
post #6433 of 9473
DIGITAL TRENDS reviews LG 55EA9800 curved OLED
Code:
Highs

    Exceptional Blacks
    Superior brightness
    Highly accurate color out of box
    Eye-catching curves, razor-thin profile
    Loaded with features

Lows

    Can’t be wall-mounted
    Disappointing motion resolution
    Minor brightness uniformity issues
    Dead pixels are disconcerting

Read more at http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/lg-55ea9800-review/
Edited by Heinz68 - 8/3/13 at 3:48am
post #6434 of 9473
^^Indeed, since they say:
Our new OLED manufacturing line using the so-called eighth-generation glass-cutting technology will go online in the second half of next year after various pilot tests

^Plenty of dead pixels in a 15 grand TV, seen in a demo model at LG??? While dead pixels are long forgotten in any LCD?? Are they trying to make fool of people?
Edited by irkuck - 8/3/13 at 4:51am
post #6435 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Nonsense. It's expected to be another month or so before customers receive the TVs.

JMO, but I think you are taking the skepticism too far. That's a press release from LG Electronics and while it is possible that somebody sent it out early, the odds are fairly heavy that it is correct. There are no language barriers or ambiguous words in it.

Unless of course you (or somebody you know) ordered one the first day and are still waiting. Then I would be on the phone with somebody at Best Buy asking rather impolitely where my $15,000 television was biggrin.gif
post #6436 of 9473
The curved OLEDs curved remote control smile.gif

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), quality = 90
post #6437 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Early start of weekend smoking confused.gif


cool.gif No
post #6438 of 9473
Want that remote! I dont care about curved screens, that remote is cool!
post #6439 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

^Plenty of dead pixels in a 15 grand TV, seen in a demo model at LG??? While dead pixels are long forgotten in any LCD?? Are they trying to make fool of people?

I guess now we know what the low yield problems are all about. If this sample they deemed acceptable to view by the press had 40+ dead pixels, can you imagine how bad the rejected panels are?

Also the review finally confirmed what I suspected from all the trade show videos - it does not support any kind of strobing or scanning to reduce blur. It relies on artifact and input-lag inducing motion interpolation like the majority of LCD.

Now to see what Samsung brings to the table.
post #6440 of 9473
This review of the first OLED set commercially available in the US is very welcome...

http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/lg-55ea9800-review/

...but it does raise some questions...

Does the issue with motion resolution suggest that OLED sets are more like LCD sets in this regard than plasma?

Does it suggest this could be a problem inherent in all OLED sets, or is it purely down to LG's approach?

Could 240hz or 1000hz solve this problem, or could Samsung have a better approach to the issue?

Are dead/lazy pixels the reason for problems with production yield (I don't believe we've ever heard exactly what those are)?

Should we be concerned that this is a problem so many years down the development track, and this close to mass production? Could it be something which could be refined out of the manufacturing process?

Is it really a concern if the dead/lazy pixels can't be seen with the human eye when watching at a reasonable distance?

Would they be more apparent when viewing prolonged dark/light scenes?

Were these pixels faulty at the point of manufacture, or have they failed during the lifespan of the set so far (with the prospect more could follow)?

If there are this many dead/lazy pixels in a 1080p display, how many would there be in a 4K set? (Sony had a couple of prototypes available for close-up inspection at CES, so we know it's possible to make one without immediately obvious issues).

I know that LG's been making the running with OLED, and it's great to see it driving things forward. I just hope the other companies haven't been prevaricating because they know there are some issues which can't be easily resolved, if even at all.
Edited by Desk. - 8/3/13 at 1:39pm
post #6441 of 9473
Two further questions...

The review suggests picture quality like that of a top plasma. So they're saying it's 'only' as good, and not noticeably better - despite the extended colour gamut and ability to present absolute blacks?

Did these guys get to test this set in completely blacked-out conditions, and if not would that have then showed an improvement on even the best image plasmas have to offer?
post #6442 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

JMO, but I think you are taking the skepticism too far. That's a press release from LG Electronics and while it is possible that somebody sent it out early, the odds are fairly heavy that it is correct. There are no language barriers or ambiguous words in it.

Unless of course you (or somebody you know) ordered one the first day and are still waiting. Then I would be on the phone with somebody at Best Buy asking rather impolitely where my $15,000 television was biggrin.gif

I spoke to a number of people in key positions in the supply chain. While it's possible that a handful of units did go to customers, I promise you if you walk into a store today, you are going to be told about your month+ wait to get your TV. In other words, if they did deliver any (which I still don't believe, but I also don't care), they did an intentional mini-shipment so they could put out a press release saying they delivered some. It's not like there are sets sitting in distribution today you can go buy and have delivered on Tuesday afternoon. There just aren't.

The initial round for the whole U.S. was described -- by LG -- as "hundreds". Down the road, "eventually thousands" will make it here. Not tens of thousands, but specifically "thousands".

Oh, and when it comes to actual deliveries of these, I don't think it's possible to take the skepticism too far. A report of an unboxing in someone's home would be noteworthy, even if again irrelevant. Let's just agree that LG will deliver a few 100 units by year end -- unless something else goes wrong. Let's not pretend any company on earth should ever issue a press release about doing something like that for a product it promised to deliver in spring of 2012.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz68 View Post

DIGITAL TRENDS reviews LG 55EA9800 curved OLED


Read more at http://www.digitaltrends.com/tv-reviews/lg-55ea9800-review/

So they saw it at the LG even and made a bunch of quick observations. Not much of a review; I'd think many of you could've done the same by seeing it at Magnolia.
post #6443 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I spoke to a number of people in key positions in the supply chain. While it's possible that a handful of units did go to customers, I promise you if you walk into a store today, you are going to be told about your month+ wait to get your TV. In other words, if they did deliver any (which I still don't believe, but I also don't care), they did an intentional mini-shipment so they could put out a press release saying they delivered some. It's not like there are sets sitting in distribution today you can go buy and have delivered on Tuesday afternoon. There just aren't.

The initial round for the whole U.S. was described -- by LG -- as "hundreds". Down the road, "eventually thousands" will make it here. Not tens of thousands, but specifically "thousands".

Who expects tens of thousands of orders for this television at this price?

They delivered a few sets. I expect that they have very few orders as well.

I'm looking for a thorough review and hopefully one of the early adopters will give us one. It is immaterial to me, and I think the ultimate fate of the technology, if they deliver a few hundred sets or a few thousand.
post #6444 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

Does the issue with motion resolution suggest that OLED sets are more like LCD sets in this regard than plasma?
Apparently no-one was listening years ago when I was saying that OLEDs would have LCD-like motion handling performance due to them being Sample & Hold displays. While switching times on OLEDs are good, image persistence is what matters when it comes to motion clarity. OLEDs are not really bright enough to use adequate scanning/dark frame insertion techniques to reduce persistence, and will have to rely on motion interpolation in the near future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

Should we be concerned that this is a problem so many years down the development track, and this close to mass production? Could it be something which could be refined out of the manufacturing process?
I wouldn't be too concerned yet. If Samsung also have this issue, then it might be something to be concerned about. That said, I had a Kuro with almost 20 dead subpixels out of the box, so sometimes you just get a bad set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

Is it really a concern if the dead/lazy pixels can't be seen with the human eye when watching at a reasonable distance?
Even a single stuck subpixel stands out to me. 40 is totally unacceptable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

The review suggests picture quality like that of a top plasma. So they're saying it's 'only' as good, and not noticeably better - despite the extended colour gamut and ability to present absolute blacks?
Most reviews don't seem to focus on evaluating image quality. They might check that the calibration controls work, and see if the set is adding sharpness or other processing to the image, but that's it. Few reviewers seem concerned about things like gradation, dithering, chroma resolution, subpixel layout etc. In theory, an OLED would bring the best of Plasma and LCD together - high native contrast ratio with very good ANSI performance from Plasma, with the high image quality of LCD, a zero black level, and no panel-based motion blur. (but as we see, early OLEDs are going to suffer from retinal motion blur due to high persistence)

David Mackenzie at HDTVtest is one of the few reviewers I've seen that actually pays a lot of attention to the finer aspects of what a display is doing with regards to things like image processing.
post #6445 of 9473
Here's the spec sheet for the LG:

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/55EA9800-Spec-Sheet.pdf

Some notable stats:
TV Weight 37.92 lbs
Power Consumption Under 85W, Max 291W
Limited Warranty 1 Year Parts and Labor
post #6446 of 9473
First technical review is up at http://hdguru.com . We learned a lot and found a number of surprises.
Edited by Gary Merson - 8/3/13 at 4:58pm
post #6447 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Merson View Post

First technical review is up at http://hdguru.com . We learned a lot and found an number of surprises.
The only thing I found surprising is that you don't consider 40+ stuck subpixels to be an issue at all, and your biases clearly show through:
Quote:
While interesting, dead or stuck sub-pixels are not an OLED-only phenomenon (ask many LCD owners)
Because there has never been a plasma with dead or stuck subpixels - except my Kuro which had the most I've seen from any type of display (almost 20) or even the CRTs I've seen which had a "dead pixel". (which is not technically a dead pixel, but looks like it)
post #6448 of 9473
"Our last test was with a 0 IRE black screen. There were around 50 or so stuck sub-pixels either white, blue or green (no red). They are extremely small, like stars in the night sky. Our good friends at Digital Trends were kind enough to let us use their time exposure to show it to you. Photo image was taken with a 4 second exposure on a Nikon D8000 with 50mm f/1.8 lens"

$14,999 and these kinds of problem! I don't think so, I will stick with the 65" ZT60 from Panasonic smile.gif
post #6449 of 9473
We did not state it is limited to LCDs. There are a heck more LCD panels out there than plasmas. Thanks for reading our review.
post #6450 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Who expects tens of thousands of orders for this television at this price?

They delivered a few sets. I expect that they have very few orders as well.

I'm looking for a thorough review and hopefully one of the early adopters will give us one. It is immaterial to me, and I think the ultimate fate of the technology, if they deliver a few hundred sets or a few thousand.

I used quote marks for a specific reason. The specific reason being the part where I was quoting someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Merson View Post

First technical review is up at http://hdguru.com . We learned a lot and found a number of surprises.

Thanks for linking the review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

"Our last test was with a 0 IRE black screen. There were around 50 or so stuck sub-pixels either white, blue or green (no red). They are extremely small, like stars in the night sky. Our good friends at Digital Trends were kind enough to let us use their time exposure to show it to you. Photo image was taken with a 4 second exposure on a Nikon D8000 with 50mm f/1.8 lens"

$14,999 and these kinds of problem! I don't think so, I will stick with the 65" ZT60 from Panasonic smile.gif

For $5000 it should be 100% perfect. For $15,000 this is embarrassing.

----

Reading Gary's review, I cannot imagine why someone would buy this TV other than bragging rights. Legitimate concerns about build quality and longevity.... The odd effect of the curved screen... The questionable motion resolution.... The breathtaking price...

Yes, it's highly contrasty and the color is good. But even Gary can't use phrases like "this was clearly the best video we've ever seen". If an expert like Mr. Merson came away only very impressed rather than blown away, how is someone with slightly less discerning standards going to feel. "This is a great TV, but I can't believe it's 6x as expensive's as Samsung's really good plasma."?
Edited by rogo - 8/3/13 at 6:54pm
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