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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 225

post #6721 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

From what I'm seeing, more and more TV purchasers are being talked into the SoundBar Addon. (My son included) Would be interesting as to the stastistics of how many get pulled into this gambit? Again, no speakers required.

You are looking at it backwards. In the continual race to the bottom, TV manufacturers removed quality speakers and they are now being sold separately as soundbars. People don't want soundbars as much as they need them to provide the audio that should have been included in the TV in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Because more than 90% of people want speakers with their TV. And having them attach on is always worse than having them be built in from an engineering/reliability standpoint.

The ascendancy of sound bars may begin to change the portion of people who demand speakers, but the idea they won't be built in anytime soon is pretty much wishful thinking on the part of a small, small minority.

Bingo. Rogo gets it once again.

Many people on avsforum have outright contempt for people who use the speakers on the TV. One of the reasons I selected a Sony XBR5 over the Kuro is that the Kuro's speakers looked like the detachable devices they were. Do the Sony's speakers match a 5.1 or 7.1 system? Nope. Do I care about watching football, golf or most tv programs in 5.1 or 7.1? Nope. Do I want to watch loud explosions when my daughters are sleeping? Nope. So I use headphones. Do I want to be able to actually hear dialogue? You betcha. And a good pair of speakers on the tv fits the bill quite nicely.

Surround sound setups are also not well suited to family rooms in the open floor plans found in most new construction.

As it relates to OLED, I'm very concerned that in order to make them thin, the speakers will be terrible or removed altogether.
post #6722 of 9481
There's nothing here really new that I can see but I thought you might want to check this out.


CNET article Seven problems with current OLED televisions is here.
post #6723 of 9481
This digitaltrends.com article has another comparison of the 2 OLEDs: LG vs. Samsung: Battle of the curved OLED TVs
post #6724 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Sound bar sales are growing nicely, but it's still a tiny fraction of TV sales. And you can't take off the speakers because "people might buy sound bars."

 

Not strictly because "people might buy sound bars", but you can absolutely make bolt-on speakers a seamless option.  IF (and only if) completely out of sight.

 

Speakers are generally completely hidden behind the TV these days.  For the vast majority of the world out there, this is totally peachy-keen.  Continuing that thought, for TVs in general there is absolutely no reason that a screw-on, snap-on, whatever-on speaker system cannot be attached easily and out of sight with all the same sound quality as when part of the chassis.  And with minimal impact on chassis design.  So long as there is care to dampen rattle, etc.

 

OLED F's that up when part of the goal is to make things absurdly thin, but it's certainly doable.  Just as it was theoretically doable to make the EM9700 mountable (most likely by thickening it up).

 

Though a tiny fraction of the whole, many high-end folks would love the ability to remove the speakers on the TV to decrease the clearance against the wall needed.  Further, others would love the ability to add ever larger speakers as an option.

post #6725 of 9481
I have found (on Korean and some US sites) the real curvature of these curved sets.

It is 4500R for Samsung (4200R announced) and 5000R for LG. That means that the radius of the curve (and the sweet spot) is 4500 mm (4.5 meters) for Samsung and 5000 mm (5 meters) for LG.
Quote:
TV화면의 곡률은 LG전자 제품은 반지름이 5m인 원만큼 휘어진 5,000R이었으나, 삼성전자는 4,500R(실제 측량 수치)로 LG전자보다 더 휘어진 것으로 조사됐다.
Quote:
The curvature of the TV screen, LG Electronics as a circle of radius 5m 5,000 R curve but, the Samsung 4,500 R (actual measurement value) to be bent more than the LG Electronics was examined.

That means the equidistant HFOV at the sweet spot is 14° (LG) and 15.5° (Samsung).
post #6726 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Speakers are generally completely hidden behind the TV these days.  For the vast majority of the world out there, this is totally peachy-keen.
Actually, sound quality is the thing I hear most people complaining about with televisions these days, rather than things like contrast or resolution. A lot of people have trouble hearing dialog properly with the speakers they put on most TVs now.

Sound bars have come about now because TV speakers are so bad. Most people are not buying them for "surround sound", to add a subwoofer, or anything like that. (frankly, the only sound bars that are any good for that purpose, are the Yamaha Sound Projectors)
And I think sound bars are a terrible solution, rather than building good speakers into the TV in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Continuing that thought, for TVs in general there is absolutely no reason that a screw-on, snap-on, whatever-on speaker system cannot be attached easily and out of sight with all the same sound quality as when part of the chassis.  And with minimal impact on chassis design.  So long as there is care to dampen rattle, etc.
It didn't work out very well for Pioneer who sold two varieties of optional speaker (sides, or below the screen) which then meant that there were two stands sold for the TV. Rather than everything coming in one box, you're now ordering three separate components that requires assembly. And I have seen a lot of Kuros out there which are using the wrong stand so there's a gap between the base and the TV. With the first Kuro I bought, the store sent me the wrong stand and I had to deal with returning that, and ordering the right one from another supplier that had them in stock.

And separate speakers never looked well integrated into the design of the set, but they will look especially bad now that high-end panels mostly seem to use a flush glass front, rather than the raised plastic frame of older displays.

Most of the time, I don't use TV speakers - but there have still been times when it has been useful to have them built in.
post #6727 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It didn't work out very well for Pioneer who sold two varieties of optional speaker (sides, or below the screen) which then meant that there were two stands sold for the TV. Rather than everything coming in one box, you're now ordering three separate components that requires assembly. And I have seen a lot of Kuros out there which are using the wrong stand so there's a gap between the base and the TV. With the first Kuro I bought, the store sent me the wrong stand and I had to deal with returning that, and ordering the right one from another supplier that had them in stock.

And separate speakers never looked well integrated into the design of the set, but they will look especially bad now that high-end panels mostly seem to use a flush glass front, rather than the raised plastic frame of older displays.

 

I don't think that's completely what I said.  They would look just fine if they were bolted to the back completely out of site like I said: the speakers I've seen often push the sound down and around or straight back anyway.  This leaves the front to look just like a non-speaker solution does.  All that happens is the TV thickens.

 

You're correct that they'd have to be aware of this with stand design if the speakers ended up encroaching on where the legs attach.  I can't imagine this to be common: nor can I see this a tough problem to solve.  On my R550A, for instance, I could circular-saw my speakers off the back and I don't think it would impact the stand at all.

post #6728 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Not strictly because "people might buy sound bars", but you can absolutely make bolt-on speakers a seamless option.  IF (and only if) completely out of sight.

Speakers are generally completely hidden behind the TV these days.  For the vast majority of the world out there, this is totally peachy-keen.  Continuing that thought, for TVs in general there is absolutely no reason that a screw-on, snap-on, whatever-on speaker system cannot be attached easily and out of sight with all the same sound quality as when part of the chassis.  And with minimal impact on chassis design.  So long as there is care to dampen rattle, etc.

OLED F's that up when part of the goal is to make things absurdly thin, but it's certainly doable.  Just as it was theoretically doable to make the EM9700 mountable (most likely by thickening it up).

Though a tiny fraction of the whole, many high-end folks would love the ability to remove the speakers on the TV to decrease the clearance against the wall needed.  Further, others would love the ability to add ever larger speakers as an option.

I'm going to admit I don't get your point (see below), but, again, most buyers want speakers, so you have to build them into TVs. You can't make them attachable, or detachable, or whatever you're after. It would complicate a product that is currently without complicate to satisfy a small minority rather than the vast majority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Actually, sound quality is the thing I hear most people complaining about with televisions these days, rather than things like contrast or resolution. A lot of people have trouble hearing dialog properly with the speakers they put on most TVs now.

This is what I experienced when I recently visited my mom. Nice Toshiba LCD that met her picture quality needs just fine. But the sound? Oh lord it was awful. TV is thin and I guess the speakers are just lousy. I told her we'd find he a sound bar.
Quote:
Sound bars have come about now because TV speakers are so bad. Most people are not buying them for "surround sound", to add a subwoofer, or anything like that. (frankly, the only sound bars that are any good for that purpose, are the Yamaha Sound Projectors)
And I think sound bars are a terrible solution, rather than building good speakers into the TV in the first place.

I've read decent reviews of even the inexpensive Vizios actually for systems with some kind of subwoofer and without. Are they great? No, but apparently a solid value. But I digress.
Quote:
It didn't work out very well for Pioneer who sold two varieties of optional speaker (sides, or below the screen) which then meant that there were two stands sold for the TV. Rather than everything coming in one box, you're now ordering three separate components that requires assembly. And I have seen a lot of Kuros out there which are using the wrong stand so there's a gap between the base and the TV. With the first Kuro I bought, the store sent me the wrong stand and I had to deal with returning that, and ordering the right one from another supplier that had them in stock.
.

See above. This is one of several reasons TVs will come with built-in speakers. And, yes, it presents a problem for OLEDs and their largely pointless super-thinness. (Largely pointless because in curved it provides no discernible benefit and in flat it's benefit is minimal, especially if rigidity is compromised.) I wonder if it isn't time for someone to figure out how to mainstream one of those exotic flat speaker technologies, e.g Magnepan (http://www.magnepan.com/)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't think that's completely what I said.  They would look just fine if they were bolted to the back completely out of site like I said: the speakers I've seen often push the sound down and around or straight back anyway.  This leaves the front to look just like a non-speaker solution does.  All that happens is the TV thickens.

You're correct that they'd have to be aware of this with stand design if the speakers ended up encroaching on where the legs attach.  I can't imagine this to be common: nor can I see this a tough problem to solve.  On my R550A, for instance, I could circular-saw my speakers off the back and I don't think it would impact the stand at all.

I believe the sound goes straight down on the Toshiba I mentioned above. It's not exactly a good solution, but it's still not clear what you're proposing. You want a bolt-or-remove design? Not happening. Too many things could go wrong. Anything removable is going to be not a mainstream product.
post #6729 of 9481

Sure, that'll do.  That's precisely what I want.  In the simplest configuration: an optional remove design.  I cannot imagine how that complicates manufacturing much.  Speakers are voice-coils.  They represent the oldest of all the technology in the thing, and they're going to be there anyway.  Requires two speakers (encased) screwed to the back of the TV.  An insert tab and one holding screw each.  Two analog connectors each.  If you want, you can unscrew it and go tighter to the wall.  Or you can (potentially) order bigger/better ones from the manufacturer.  I'm happy, the audiophiles are happy[ier].

 

The person who wants a turn-key system with single ordering gets it just as always.  Given all the tight bezels out there, I can't think of any modern ones that push sound forward anyway.
 

post #6730 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

This is what I experienced when I recently visited my mom. Nice Toshiba LCD that met her picture quality needs just fine. But the sound? Oh lord it was awful. TV is thin and I guess the speakers are just lousy. I told her we'd find he a sound bar.
And I bet she would much rather not have a sound bar, and have it integrated into the television.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I wonder if it isn't time for someone to figure out how to mainstream one of those exotic flat speaker technologies, e.g Magnepan (http://www.magnepan.com/)
Well Sony introduced Magnetic Fluid speakers with the X900A models, and from what I've seen so far, people seem to be quite impressed with them. The problem is physics, and it's difficult to hide away a speaker in a really slim enclosure, and still have it sound good.

Flat panel speakers like the Magnepans need a lot of distance behind them, and they are highly directional.
Philips used NXT flat panel speakers in their LCDs a number of years ago, but I don't recall how they sounded.
THX's Steerable Line Array speaker seemed like it could potentially be integrated into slightly thicker flat panel designs, or at least improve over traditional sound bar design (being steerable, it's more like the Yamaha Sound Projectors) but it was announced and then nothing ever seemed to happen with it.
post #6731 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I was put off initially by the curved set, but not enough to rule it out: it is not a big deal to me since I would use it on a credenza,I am not wall mounting it

I am agonizing over Rogo's (and others) cautions to avoid this first gen set and wait: I know that is good advise, but I remain tempted and you know I am an early adopter smile.gif

one other concern is the warranty: I thought it was 3 years, not one (or extended to 2)

Vallue Electronics updated their info on the Samsung OLED TV: 5 year warranty from date of purchase $99

http://www.kn55s9.com/
post #6732 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

And I bet she would much rather not have a sound bar, and have it integrated into the television.

For sure, we're going to need to build her a shelf for the sound bar. Pain in the rear.
Quote:
Flat panel speakers like the Magnepans need a lot of distance behind them, and they are highly directional.
Philips used NXT flat panel speakers in their LCDs a number of years ago, but I don't recall how they sounded.
THX's Steerable Line Array speaker seemed like it could potentially be integrated into slightly thicker flat panel designs, or at least improve over traditional sound bar design (being steerable, it's more like the Yamaha Sound Projectors) but it was announced and then nothing ever seemed to happen with it.

Good run down. I was speaking hypothetically, but this is solid practical stuff.
post #6733 of 9481
OLED "tipping point" approaching as TV production ramps up, says Korean investment company...

http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/31246/tipping-point-approaching-oled-industrywoori-securities
post #6734 of 9481
^UHD OLEDs coming in the third quarter of this (?!) year, so says Woori Investment. Maybe another prototype, because LG/Samsung only have a little over a month to debut such a product (and meet the deadline).
post #6735 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

Vallue Electronics updated their info on the Samsung OLED TV: 5 year warranty from date of purchase $99

http://www.kn55s9.com/

http://www.mackcam.com/warranties/televisions/
Quote:

The equipment will be restored to proper operating condition at no charge to you (this includes warranted parts and labor for manufacturer defects). Such service, repair, adjustment of the equipment is assured the registered contract holder, provided the equipment has not been tampered with, modified, damaged as a result of liquid, grit, power surge, burn-in, impact and physically broken parts. This service contract only covers a unit malfunction. Customer maintenance is not covered.

For reference, here is the BB warranty. It specifically mentions covering burn-in and pixel defects. Before buying, one would need to verify if these terms also apply to OLED.

http://www.geeksquad.com/uploadedFiles/wwwgeeksquadcom/protection_plans/geek_squad_protection/television-guide.pdf
http://www.geeksquad.com/uploadedFiles/wwwgeeksquadcom/protection_plans/Geek_Squad_Protection_TsandCs_7_15_12_English.pdf
Edited by Wizziwig - 8/21/13 at 10:14pm
post #6736 of 9481

Despicable mE smile.gif
post #6737 of 9481
Regarding the Samsung, Amazon is now taking orders with 1-2 month estimated delivery. Earlier today, they showed 1 unit "in-stock" through a third party seller.

Personally, I'm not sure I would purchase this from anyone else but BB. They offer the only warranty likely to cover burn-in and pixel defects. See link to warranty terms 2 posts back.
post #6738 of 9481
Couldn't find the product page when I searched for it previously. Now it's live: http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-KN55S9C-Curved-Panel-Smart/dp/B00E5GIN36/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377149638&sr=8-1

At least this means they're fairly confident they'll be receiving them.
post #6739 of 9481
Also, according to BB, they have an exclusive on the LG for the next few months. You can order it at any of their stores, but only a select few stores have demo units on display:
Code:
CALIFORNIA
West L.A.       11301 W Pico Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90064
Mission Viejo   25422 El Paseo, Mission Viejo, CA 92691
San Francisco   1717 Harrison Street, San Francisco, CAÂ 94103
Santana Row     3090 Stevens Creek Blvd, San Jose, CAÂ 95128
COLORADO
Denver  8682 Park Meadows Center Dr., Lone Tree, CO 80124
CONNECTICUT
Danbury 2 International Dr., Danbury, CT 06810
FLORIDA
Aventura        21035 Biscayne Blvd, Aventura, FL 33180
ILLINOIS
Chicago 2100 N Elston Ave, Chicago, ILÂ  60614-3904
MICHIGAN
Novi    21051 Haggerty Road, Novi, MI 48375
MINNESOTA
Richfield       1000 West 78th St, Richfield, MN 55423
NEW HAMPSHIRE
Portsmouth      45 Gosling Rd, Newington, NH, 03801
NEW YORK
62nd and Broadway       1880 Broadway, New York City, NY 10023
Westbury        1100 Old Country Road, Westbury, NY 11590
TEXAS
Dallas  9378 N Central Expressway, Dallas, TX 75231
North Rim       17414 La Cantera, San Antonio, TX 78257
The Woodlands   1550 Lake Woodlands Dr, The Woodlands, TX 77380
VIRGINIA
Springfield Mall        6555 Frontier Dr, Springfield, VA 22150
Washington
Bellevue        14404 NE 20th Street, Bellevue, WAÂ  98007
post #6740 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Couldn't find the product page when I searched for it previously. Now it's live: http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-KN55S9C-Curved-Panel-Smart/dp/B00E5GIN36/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377149638&sr=8-1

At least this means they're fairly confident they'll be receiving them.

This line about when it might be shipped is unintentionally hilarious.

"Usually ships within 1 to 2 months." Apparenty based on all the past history of shipping the product.biggrin.gif
post #6741 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Regarding the Samsung, Amazon is now taking orders with 1-2 month estimated delivery. Earlier today, they showed 1 unit "in-stock" through a third party seller.

Personally, I'm not sure I would purchase this from anyone else but BB. They offer the only warranty likely to cover burn-in and pixel defects. See link to warranty terms 2 posts back.

Agree and BestBuy's warranty is two years where Samsung's website says only one year so I think that would imply you only get one year if bought through Amazon.
post #6742 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

This line about when it might be shipped is unintentionally hilarious.

"Usually ships within 1 to 2 months." Apparenty based on all the past history of shipping the product.biggrin.gif

We can only pray that the US launch does not repeat what happened with the Korean/UK launches - where 6 months later we're still waiting for a single confirmed-owner review of either TV. Someone out there must be buying these things. Strange they aren't bragging about it on the net.
post #6743 of 9481
"...a tipping point is approaching..."

Only in the same sense as the end of the world is approaching. I can understand why there is no author attached to the piece.
post #6744 of 9481
Harrod's quoted me 4 weeks to get flat LG. they really must be making ten of these sets a week!
post #6745 of 9481
post #6746 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Harrod's quoted me 4 weeks to get flat LG. they really must be making ten of these sets a week!

My sense is very strong that there are no actual units for sale in the U.K. If you order one, it gets shipped from Korea.

LG told me explicitly that in the U.S. there would be units in distribution, however.
post #6747 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Sure, that'll do.  That's precisely what I want.  In the simplest configuration: an optional remove design.  I cannot imagine how that complicates manufacturing much.  Speakers are voice-coils.  They represent the oldest of all the technology in the thing, and they're going to be there anyway.  Requires two speakers (encased) screwed to the back of the TV.  An insert tab and one holding screw each.  Two analog connectors each.  If you want, you can unscrew it and go tighter to the wall.  Or you can (potentially) order bigger/better ones from the manufacturer.  I'm happy, the audiophiles are happy[ier].

 

The person who wants a turn-key system with single ordering gets it just as always.  Given all the tight bezels out there, I can't think of any modern ones that push sound forward anyway.
 

 

Ok, to put a bookend on this particular OT part of the discussion, Sony has not only slashed prices on their existing XBR's (with the speakers) but set the 55" & 65" speakerless versions at $3500 & $5000 respectively.

post #6748 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desk. View Post

More impressions of the new Samsung OLED set...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/08/18/picture-shows-future-television

"This may not look like much, but it is a quantum leap in television performance."

Nice. biggrin.gif
post #6749 of 9481
Has Panasonic announced a timeline for their OLED?

Has the Japanese consortium of display manufacturers announced anything?

Wasn't Sony going to pursue some alternate display tech after all the various ones they dallied with? I mean after Kaz Hirai took over, not 5 or 6 years ago.
post #6750 of 9481
Quote:
Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

I'd think a 70 inch 4K OLED would be just perfect for me. I cannot fathom how spectacular that would look. I would be willing fork over a lot of dough for something like that. The future of tvs is looking very exciting indeed. For now though, we will be playing the waiting game.

Oh and one more thought about OLEDs. As much as I love great contrast and black levels, there are other aspects that are important to PQ. So far, based on what I read of the LG and Samsung OLEDs, the motion is not the best. Motion is very important and I'm hoping it will not be an issue in the upcoming years. We'll see.

Exactly right, well have to play the waiting game for now. I'll be wanting a bigger screen next time around and right now I have a 70''. I'm thinking a 90'' or 100'' OLED 4K or 8k resolution sounds pretty good to me but I'll be in for a wait no doubt. biggrin.gif

PS: The reason I say possible 8k set is because I was speaking with a Sony rep and they are under the impression that Sony will be releasing an 8K rez one next year. Although I had thought the industry standard would to be 4k who knows what's going on for sure? cool.gif
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