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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 249

post #7441 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The ABL in PDP is no different than that of OLED or CRT. The peak brightness vs APL is varied in a way to try and keep the average brightness unchanged and thus the power unchanged. Turning down the contrast lowers the peak brightness. At some point it reaches a level below the ABL threshold. Same thing happens in a Plasma but at a much lower threshold.
Not on any of the plasmas I measured. The Kuros would dim by about 50% no matter whether contrast was high or reduced to very low levels. The only thing that affected the ABL were the power saving options, which made it more aggressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

You say it is uncomfortable to watch. In what way? Obviously the average brightness is no higher (actually much lower) so what is bothering your eyes?
Maybe in theory the eye only cares about average brightness, but I find a small bright area on the screen far more piercing in the darkness than a full screen with the same average brightness, because it's only filling a much smaller portion of your vision.
post #7442 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Not on any of the plasmas I measured. The Kuros would dim by about 50% no matter whether contrast was high or reduced to very low levels. The only thing that affected the ABL were the power saving options, which made it more aggressive.
Sounds like something is lost in translation here. Why on earth would a PDP require a fixed ABL when the primary purpose is to limit power? That makes absolutely no sense.
post #7443 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Sounds like something is lost in translation here. Why on earth would a PDP require a fixed ABL when the primary purpose is to limit power? That makes absolutely no sense.
Don't ask me, I just know that I saw the same ABL performance no matter what the contrast was set to - or at least, there was no meaningful reduction. (still dimming 50% with peaks of 100cd/m2) I won't say there was no change because this was probably five years ago now, but I'm fairly sure there wasn't any change. Maybe other manufacturers handled it differently (I would hope so) but I tested multiple Kuros, which led me to conclude that they're using a fixed ABL.
Sony's ABL for their LCDs operates in a similar fashion when you enable it. Adjusting the backlight or contrast doesn't affect its strength.
post #7444 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

^^^
For low light viewing, I find ABL beneficial as it limits intensity form dark to light scene transitions.

In the showroom, it is the number one ingredient leading to the demise of Plasma.

- Rich
...that, and ignorant buyers...
post #7445 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

...that, and ignorant buyers...

The customer is always right wink.gif

After viewing the ZT60 at Best Buy, I was doubtful until I went to Paul's TV.
I love my ZT60, but

...the flesh is weak tongue.gif

- Rich
Edited by RichB - 11/7/13 at 4:27pm
post #7446 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

...that, and ignorant buyers...

The customer is always right wink.gif

After viewing the ZT60 at Best Buy, I was doubtful until I went to Paul's TV.
I love my VT60, but

...the flesh is weak tongue.gif

- Rich

 

A plasma belongs in the dark BB/Magnolia room.  Period, end of story.  It does not belong on the surface-of-the-sun BB floor.

post #7447 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

A plasma belongs in the dark BB/Magnolia room.  Period, end of story.  It does not belong on the surface-of-the-sun BB floor.

Did you mean: Period, end of Plasma tongue.gif

They are in the Magnolia area, but then you run the BB feeds with super bright white and yellow content the Plasmas look pale in comparison.

Here is a shot from BB. I think you can guess which screen in the Plasma.
I know better and this display worried me tongue.gif



People will say that was you camera.
No, this is what the buyer is faced with.

- Rich
post #7448 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Here is a shot from BB. I think you can guess which screen in the Plasma.
I know better and this display worried me tongue.gif

- Rich
The bright showroom problem was due to the diffuse reflections washing out contrast on PDP. As you point out the real problem is brightness, irrelevant of ambient light. When you put a display that is up to 5 times brighter than PDP beside it, the PDP will look dull in any ambient light.
post #7449 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did you mean: Period, end of Plasma tongue.gif

They are in the Magnolia area, but then you run the BB feeds with super bright white and yellow content the Plasmas look pale in comparison.

Here is a shot from BB. I think you can guess which screen in the Plasma.
I know better and this display worried me tongue.gif



People will say that was you camera.
No, this is what the buyer is faced with.

- Rich

Good example Rich.

It's pretty obvious that demo material favors LEDs.
post #7450 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Don't ask me, I just know that I saw the same ABL performance no matter what the contrast was set to - or at least, there was no meaningful reduction. (still dimming 50% with peaks of 100cd/m2) I won't say there was no change because this was probably five years ago now, but I'm fairly sure there wasn't any change. Maybe other manufacturers handled it differently (I would hope so) but I tested multiple Kuros, which led me to conclude that they're using a fixed ABL.
Sony's ABL for their LCDs operates in a similar fashion when you enable it. Adjusting the backlight or contrast doesn't affect its strength.
Ah, I took your meaning as the magnitude drop remains fixed. A percent drop makes more sense. Still not sure why it is needed if the power threshold remains the same.
post #7451 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

The bright showroom problem was due to the diffuse reflections washing out contrast on PDP. As you point out the real problem is brightness, irrelevant of ambient light. When you put a display that is up to 5 times brighter than PDP beside it, the PDP will look dull in any ambient light.

I looks like OLED's may avoid this pitfall.

Perhaps Plasma could not do much about the ABL, but I hope OLED manufacturers realize the need to seer eyeballs in order to sell them and overbuild them a bit.

I will happily turn it down when I get it home.

- Rich
post #7452 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Did you mean: Period, end of Plasma tongue.gif

They are in the Magnolia area, but then you run the BB feeds with super bright white and yellow content the Plasmas look pale in comparison.

Here is a shot from BB. I think you can guess which screen in the Plasma.
I know better and this display worried me tongue.gif



People will say that was you camera.
No, this is what the buyer is faced with.

- Rich

Good example Rich.

It's pretty obvious that demo material favors LEDs.

 

Yep.  Point taken well.  More than a little sad.

 

BTW, occasionally they F up on the floor with LED's too.  My local BB had all the panels on torch, but the KDL-55W802A obviously had its eco setting on and looked like a ridiculous 1/3rd as bright.

post #7453 of 9427
My Local BB has the ST60 set up in a bright area but it runs on a different demo loop than the LED sets around it. The ST60 really pops out at you even with the other TVs being brighter. I bet the store manager has a bit of Plasma fancy...
post #7454 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Yep.  Point taken well.  More than a little sad.

It's tragic. mad.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris5028 View Post

My Local BB has the ST60 set up in a bright area but it runs on a different demo loop than the LED sets around it. The ST60 really pops out at you even with the other TVs being brighter. I bet the store manager has a bit of Plasma fancy...

On real context Plasma is fantastic.

- Rich
post #7455 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I looks like OLED's may avoid this pitfall.

Perhaps Plasma could not do much about the ABL, but I hope OLED manufacturers realize the need to seer eyeballs in order to sell them and overbuild them a bit.

I will happily turn it down when I get it home.

- Rich

Well OLED's are not very affordable right now and will not be so for for quite some time it looks like. That means most people interested in this top notch dollar display will probably be viewing it in a premium viewing environment with controlled lighting etc. But yes when the prices come down retailers will rush to push this thing in torch mode and undoubtably hang it on the wall way above  eye level or do many other horrible things you can think of as well. 🙈
post #7456 of 9427
77" completely fake prototype 4K LG OLED wins some silly CES pre-show award... Jiggity.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57612022-221/lgs-4k-oled-tv-wins-ces-award-hands-on/
post #7457 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

77" completely fake prototype 4K LG OLED wins some silly CES pre-show award... Jiggity.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57612022-221/lgs-4k-oled-tv-wins-ces-award-hands-on/

 

Not sure what a "fake prototype" is if it turned on and showed an image without exploding, but in any event LG needs to make English tag lines a little less clumsy sounding than "with Ultimate Vividness".  That's gotta be among the goofiest pitches yet.  I think they may have fallen into a Korean version of the common trap of "literal translation".

post #7458 of 9427
How 'bout making sh*t up like ultimate vividity?

I know LG has a habit of fibbing, but I'm going to take them at their word that it is an actual prototype.
post #7459 of 9427
And it's curved.
post #7460 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

And it's curved.

Ouch. How long are they going to keep this up? I mean, the market for sets costing $10,000 is small enough. How many people are looking to spend that much on a curved set? I'm starting to think they dont want to actually sell any sets at all.
post #7461 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Not sure what a "fake prototype" is if it turned on and showed an image without exploding, but in any event LG needs to make English tag lines a little less clumsy sounding than "with Ultimate Vividness".  That's gotta be among the goofiest pitches yet.  I think they may have fallen into a Korean version of the common trap of "literal translation".

No input panel for starters...

I mean, I suppose if you want to call it an "engineering prototype" it's not fake. But it's not like, "Oh, here's something that's in a rough state, but was constructed using manufacturing techniques,." This was hand built and is designed to mimic an actual television, but it isn't actually one.

It's not a prototype of an actual product, which makes it winning an award kind of bizarre. That LG continues to parade out things that are not even remotely real and acts like they are remotely real is offensive.
post #7462 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Not sure what a "fake prototype" is if it turned on and showed an image without exploding, but in any event LG needs to make English tag lines a little less clumsy sounding than "with Ultimate Vividness".  That's gotta be among the goofiest pitches yet.  I think they may have fallen into a Korean version of the common trap of "literal translation".

No input panel for starters...

I mean, I suppose if you want to call it an "engineering prototype" it's not fake. But it's not like, "Oh, here's something that's in a rough state, but was constructed using manufacturing techniques,." This was hand built and is designed to mimic an actual television, but it isn't actually one.

It's not a prototype of an actual product, which makes it winning an award kind of bizarre. That LG continues to parade out things that are not even remotely real and acts like they are remotely real is offensive.

 

Point taken.

 

I suppose I harken back to Sony's Crystal LED, which you pointed out didn't have a prayer of being produced outside of prototype quantities.  That won the best display award in CES2012, and wasn't a real product, as much as I wish it could have been.

post #7463 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Point taken.

I suppose I harken back to Sony's Crystal LED, which you pointed out didn't have a prayer of being produced outside of prototype quantities.  That won the best display award in CES2012, and wasn't a real product, as much as I wish it could have been.

Yeah, so the good news about this LG is that it has a prayer of being produced at some point, unlike that Sony. Both were similarly bogus prototypes in terms of being production ready, but at least the LG points to a future direction of something they already have in the works.

The bad news about OLED -- for me at least -- is I've come to believe the only way it will reach mass production at all is via printable technology. I don't believe either Samsung or LG can scale the current methods to interesting volumes. The good news is that I believe printable OLEDs are more than a fantasy... But more on that soon.
post #7464 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yeah, so the good news about this LG is that it has a prayer of being produced at some point, unlike that Sony. Both were similarly bogus prototypes in terms of being production ready, but at least the LG points to a future direction of something they already have in the works.
A prototype means that they are experimenting with the technology. There's nothing "bogus" about it if they were able to show a working display. Having a prototype says nothing about how soon that technology is ready to hit the market, if it even will.
Sony were telling people that they should not expect the Crystal LED display to become an actual product - they were just showcasing some of the technologies they were exploring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The bad news about OLED -- for me at least -- is I've come to believe the only way it will reach mass production at all is via printable technology. I don't believe either Samsung or LG can scale the current methods to interesting volumes. The good news is that I believe printable OLEDs are more than a fantasy... But more on that soon.
I'm not sure why it's a bad thing if the future of OLED is through printed displays - we already have companies developing the technology who have demonstrated working prototypes, and Sony have announced 30" and 56" OLEDs for sale next year based on this technology, so they are clearly making progress.
post #7465 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

No input panel for starters...

I mean, I suppose if you want to call it an "engineering prototype" it's not fake. But it's not like, "Oh, here's something that's in a rough state, but was constructed using manufacturing techniques,." This was hand built and is designed to mimic an actual television, but it isn't actually one.

It's not a prototype of an actual product, which makes it winning an award kind of bizarre. That LG continues to parade out things that are not even remotely real and acts like they are remotely real is offensive.









So no 77" 4k oled at Walmart on Black Friday?
post #7466 of 9427
New Samsung OLED-TV at CES with a variable curvature?
Quote:
Samsung to pyeotda bent 'variable OLED TV' puts out early next year. TV is variable depending on your taste and the flat surface of the screen with the remote control operation of the free transition to the commercialization, if a TV is rated as a breakthrough product.

According to industry sources, Samsung Electronics, the 13th and the last flat surface free of the outer frame of the TV capable of switching the variable order. Industry official said, "This is the 1st year in Las Vegas, the world's largest consumer electronics trade show held the International Electronics Show (CES) 2014 'variable in the TV show as prototypes for the line of previous work knows that," he said. So far, Samsung at CES 2012 flat OLED TV, 2013 년 curved OLED TV at CES has released one.

To launch a new product, the remote control allows you to adjust the curvature seems to be. Industry official said, "the launch of any TV that Samsung is not known with respect to the variable OLED TV in U.S. Patent and Trademark Office last May, the TV screen with the remote control to adjust the curvature of the patent pending technology, the state," he said.


http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Feconomy.hankooki.com%2Flpage%2Findustry%2F201311%2Fe20131113171836120180.htm
post #7467 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

A prototype means that they are experimenting with the technology. There's nothing "bogus" about it if they were able to show a working display.

There's a huge difference between a prototype of a product and a prototype that serves as a technology demonstration. When BMW shows off a prototype of the i3 electric car, that's a "Hey, this thing is coming next year" prototype. LG shows off a technology demonstration. It was not a product prototype.
Quote:
Having a prototype says nothing about how soon that technology is ready to hit the market, if it even will.

Product prototypes signify intent to manufacture. They usually are followed by... products. Technology prototypes signify... next to nothing.
Quote:
Sony were telling people that they should not expect the Crystal LED display to become an actual product - they were just showcasing some of the technologies they were exploring.

Actually, Sony people were telling people about 15 different stories about Crystal LED. How do I know? Because I heard 15 different stories. None of them were very close to the truth which was, "We have no idea why this thing is here, we are never going to build TVs using this technology."
Quote:
I'm not sure why it's a bad thing if the future of OLED is through printed displays - we already have companies developing the technology who have demonstrated working prototypes, and Sony have announced 30" and 56" OLEDs for sale next year based on this technology, so they are clearly making progress.

It's not a bad thing, except for the fact that the only two commercially available OLEDs are not printed and therefore cannot see their production scaled up. And Sony has no OLED production facility of any kind*, even in the planning stage. So when they "announce" the sale of something for next year, we should be wary of that. It's certainly true that they are making progress. I believe they will be well served to scrap their progress and start over soon.

* Sony does, of course, produce their much smaller broadcast OLEDs. That facility does not use printable tech and won't be part of the TV-making using printables.
post #7468 of 9427
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


It's not a bad thing, except for the fact that the only two commercially available OLEDs are not printed and therefore cannot see their production scaled up.

So what exactly do you see as the show stopper for LG's approach?
post #7469 of 9427
Rogo, I look forward to hearing more about the printing process progress. Hopefully sooner rather than later!
post #7470 of 9427

 

Every time I try to read an auto-translation of Asian text, I come away realizing that it might have really said 3 different things.

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