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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 254

post #7591 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland 
Instead of huge roll up OLED panels, what I would prefer to see developed is a large OLED display that would function as a transparent picture window, when not being used as a TV. It probably will never happen, but I look at the large window in my living room and think: it sure would be nice if all that glass space could do double duty as a tv display.[/quote

smile.gif
post #7592 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Instead of huge roll up OLED panels, what I would prefer to see developed is a large OLED display that would function as a transparent picture window, when not being used as a TV. It probably will never happen, but I look at the large window in my living room and think: it sure would be nice if all that glass space could do double duty as a tv display.

 

I really wouldn't want the neighbors to be able to watch my TV, especially if it has "for mature audience" content and minors might be watching.

 

Also, it could end up being a dead giveaway to the local criminal element of when the place is unoccupied.

 

The above two objections can be eliminated if there is another layer of liquid crystals that turn opaque to block the outside from looking in or seeing the TV when we want the "blinds" closed. :)

 

Another use may be to connect an exterior camera to the wall-mounted TV and, when not watching another source, let the TV present a live picture of outside.

post #7593 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post

The above two objections can be eliminated if there is another layer of liquid crystals that turn opaque to block the outside from looking in or seeing the TV when we want the "blinds" closed. :)

 

A long time ago I posted a patent that Apple had regarding just this.  And you would need that ability anyway....there is no point in having a fully transparent OLED when every single light on in the neighborhood could shine through it and ruin your movie.

 

Apple's patent actually allowed for a fixed white background as well (not suitable for a window).

 

Quote, from the long dead CES 2013 thread:
Originally posted by tgm1024:

Back at the end of 2011, Apple filed a patent that allows an opacity switching layer. It uses that idea slightly differently, A solid white back for white pixels, the opacity switching layer to provide black, and then the transparent OLED on top. Take away the backing white, and you have your basic transparent OLED with black.


http://www.oled-info.com/new-apple-patent-describes-transparent-oled-solid-background-new-oled-iphone-rumors-emerge

I don't like the patent's artwork, but here it is anyway:

post #7594 of 9446
Any OLED needs that kind of substrate to work at all. All of my above proposals assumed a second layer that could "go opaque" when needed. The weird/cool thing about doing it as a window is that in theory, the TV could show the outside world some entirely fake view of what was going on inside if you wanted (and weren't watching TV).
post #7595 of 9446
Yeeah. Think the kid that hits his baseball through that would get killed by his parents when they got the $8000 bill? LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland 
Instead of huge roll up OLED panels, what I would prefer to see developed is a large OLED display that would function as a transparent picture window, when not being used as a TV. It probably will never happen, but I look at the large window in my living room and think: it sure would be nice if all that glass space could do double duty as a tv display.[/quote

smile.gif
post #7596 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland 
Instead of huge roll up OLED panels, what I would prefer to see developed is a large OLED display that would function as a transparent picture window, when not being used as a TV. It probably will never happen, but I look at the large window in my living room and think: it sure would be nice if all that glass space could do double duty as a tv display.[/quote

smile.gif

I would bet that tv wouldn't last a year. The changing temperature and humidity on the panel itself from being a window would ruin it. Front of panel would be room temperature, backside could be any temperature, from sub zero to over 100 degrees. Then watch out for flying birds, hailstones, driving rain and snow.
post #7597 of 9446
I dont need an Oled in my window but I do need an affordable flat 60 inch oled in my living room.
post #7598 of 9446
Another very thorough review of the LG OLED done by HDTVTest, a UK publication here.

I copied a couple sections here I thought interesting, but there's lots more in the article.


Benchmark Test Results
Dead pixels 2 dead subpixels
Screen uniformity Bottom-half brighter + banding at 5%-10% stimulus
Overscanning on HDMI 0% with Aspect Ratio set to “Just Scan”
Blacker than black Passed
Calibrated black level (black screen) 0 cd/m2
Calibrated black level (ANSI checkerboard) 0.0004 cd/m2
Black level retention Very mild – not visible outside test sequence
Primary chromaticity Very good
Scaling Excellent
Video mode deinterlacing Very effective jaggies reduction
Film mode deinterlacing Passed 3:2 & 2:2 cadence tests
Viewing angle Excellent
Motion resolution 600 with [TruMotion] engaged; 300 otherwise
Digital noise reduction Acceptable at baseline
Sharpness Defeatable edge enhancement
Luma/Chroma bandwidth (2D Blu-ray) Full Luma; Chroma horizontally blurred unless [PC] mode in 60Hz
1080p/24 capability No judder in 2D or 3D with [Real Cinema] engaged
Leo Bodnar input lag tester 55ms with [Game Mode] engaged
Full 4:4:4 reproduction (PC) Yes, with input label set to [PC]


Conclusion
The LG 55EA980W is the second OLED TV we’ve tested, and like the first, it delivers a picture that blows away any LED LCD television, and eclipses even the best-performing plasmas, owing largely to its ability to render true blacks. Should OLED displays come down in price and become more commonplace in the future, we may have to revise our review scoring system: do we still assign so high a weighting on contrast ratio if every TV’s black level is 0 cd/m2?

Until that day arrives though, the black-level performance of the LG EA980W stands head and shoulders above every other flat-screen TV except Samsung’s KE55S9C, the only other OLED television on the market in the UK. That we were enamoured by the supreme blacks didn’t mean the 55EA980′s other excellent attributes went unnoticed. Thanks to THX’s involvement, out-of-the-box greyscale accuracy in [THX Cinema] mode ranked as the best we’ve seen all year. The onboard video processing was first-rate, guaranteeing no degradation in both SD and HD quality. And did we mention how jawdroppingly gorgeous the design – what with its unbelievably slim, curved screen – looked? We didn’t even notice the subtle curvature after a while: such was the mesmerising effect the unreal blacks had on us.

The obvious question to ask is: which is better between this and the Samsung S9C, both being curved OLED displays that cost more than any other 55″ televisions on the market? Based on our indepth testing, we’d have to give the slight edge to the Samsung: its active 3D is full-res and not hampered by vertical off-axis limitation; it features black frame insertion (BFI) as a means to reduce motion blur without introducing interpolation artefacts; and we prefer the cleaner look of its true RGB subpixel structure even if it’s only apparent from up close. And the Samsung KE55S9C’s lower price to the tune of £1000 is not to be sniffed at too.

But let’s not take anything away from the LG 55EA980W, because it’s truly a fabulous TV in its own right. Underpinned by the inkiest blacks imaginable, the EA980W’s world-class picture quality is a giant step forward in the company’s effort to establish itself as a premium AV brand.
post #7599 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Another very thorough review of the LG OLED done by HDTVTest, a UK publication here.

I copied a couple sections here I thought interesting, but there's lots more in the article.


Benchmark Test Results
Dead pixels 2 dead subpixels
Screen uniformity Bottom-half brighter + banding at 5%-10% stimulus
Overscanning on HDMI 0% with Aspect Ratio set to “Just Scan”
Blacker than black Passed
Calibrated black level (black screen) 0 cd/m2
Calibrated black level (ANSI checkerboard) 0.0004 cd/m2
Black level retention Very mild – not visible outside test sequence
Primary chromaticity Very good
Scaling Excellent
Video mode deinterlacing Very effective jaggies reduction
Film mode deinterlacing Passed 3:2 & 2:2 cadence tests
Viewing angle Excellent
Motion resolution 600 with [TruMotion] engaged; 300 otherwise
Digital noise reduction Acceptable at baseline
Sharpness Defeatable edge enhancement
Luma/Chroma bandwidth (2D Blu-ray) Full Luma; Chroma horizontally blurred unless [PC] mode in 60Hz
1080p/24 capability No judder in 2D or 3D with [Real Cinema] engaged
Leo Bodnar input lag tester 55ms with [Game Mode] engaged
Full 4:4:4 reproduction (PC) Yes, with input label set to [PC]


Conclusion
The LG 55EA980W is the second OLED TV we’ve tested, and like the first, it delivers a picture that blows away any LED LCD television, and eclipses even the best-performing plasmas, owing largely to its ability to render true blacks. Should OLED displays come down in price and become more commonplace in the future, we may have to revise our review scoring system: do we still assign so high a weighting on contrast ratio if every TV’s black level is 0 cd/m2?

Until that day arrives though, the black-level performance of the LG EA980W stands head and shoulders above every other flat-screen TV except Samsung’s KE55S9C, the only other OLED television on the market in the UK. That we were enamoured by the supreme blacks didn’t mean the 55EA980′s other excellent attributes went unnoticed. Thanks to THX’s involvement, out-of-the-box greyscale accuracy in [THX Cinema] mode ranked as the best we’ve seen all year. The onboard video processing was first-rate, guaranteeing no degradation in both SD and HD quality. And did we mention how jawdroppingly gorgeous the design – what with its unbelievably slim, curved screen – looked? We didn’t even notice the subtle curvature after a while: such was the mesmerising effect the unreal blacks had on us.

The obvious question to ask is: which is better between this and the Samsung S9C, both being curved OLED displays that cost more than any other 55″ televisions on the market? Based on our indepth testing, we’d have to give the slight edge to the Samsung: its active 3D is full-res and not hampered by vertical off-axis limitation; it features black frame insertion (BFI) as a means to reduce motion blur without introducing interpolation artefacts; and we prefer the cleaner look of its true RGB subpixel structure even if it’s only apparent from up close. And the Samsung KE55S9C’s lower price to the tune of £1000 is not to be sniffed at too.

But let’s not take anything away from the LG 55EA980W, because it’s truly a fabulous TV in its own right. Underpinned by the inkiest blacks imaginable, the EA980W’s world-class picture quality is a giant step forward in the company’s effort to establish itself as a premium AV brand.

I would vote for the Samsung OLED technology, because that yields far superior off-axis viewing - as good as plasmas!
(Whereas LG's version does not...otherwise I think the two have tested out very similar as to picture quality).
post #7600 of 9446
This Korea Times article suggests LG is working with Merck on OLED printing technology.

"Merck is among the few firms that can supply OLED material for both vacuum evaporation and ink-jet printing processes to fulfill LG’s requirements, said market analysts and sources."

"CIO Kim said Merck has already begun developing inkjet printing for mass-producing OLED TV panels in cooperation with Taiwanese panel makers, as well as the Koreans by offering materials, although he said no timetable has been set yet for mass production to begin."
post #7601 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

This Korea Times article suggests LG is working with Merck on OLED printing technology.

"Merck is among the few firms that can supply OLED material for both vacuum evaporation and ink-jet printing processes to fulfill LG’s requirements, said market analysts and sources."

"CIO Kim said Merck has already begun developing inkjet printing for mass-producing OLED TV panels in cooperation with Taiwanese panel makers, as well as the Koreans by offering materials, although he said no timetable has been set yet for mass production to begin."

Samsung already has an edge on LG in this regard. I believe OLED is going to be more affordable than people think come 2014, with 4K LCD being extremely affordable. A local major electronics store is offering $400 gift cards with the purchase of the sony HX850 or LG 4K sets as well as a few other sets. This is a tell-tell sign that they are getting rid of stock for newer, better models to come in (OLED).
post #7602 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

Samsung already has an edge on LG in this regard. I believe OLED is going to be more affordable than people think come 2014, with 4K LCD being extremely affordable. A local major electronics store is offering $400 gift cards with the purchase of the sony HX850 or LG 4K sets as well as a few other sets. This is a tell-tell sign that they are getting rid of stock for newer, better models to come in (OLED).

LOL. No there is still no improvements in OLED yields from LG or Samsung. OLED models are not going to be flooding the market anytime soon. Especially at larger sizes. The Chinese will try their hand at OLED and hope the can offset the low yields with their slave labor wages, but will still probably not be able to reach mass market. Best hope is the new OLED printing method which will probably take 2 more years to ramp up to mass market.
post #7603 of 9446
From a CNET article explaining the price differenced between LG's OLED sets and Samsungs OLED: "Samsung's price cut came as a result of improved manufacturing yield, and [Korean] customers that already purchased one will be refunded the difference". If you used google outside of North American searches you could read local press reports in korea and other countries. Business Korea wrote about Samsungs increasing yields as well as LG and expects yields to be above 70% by the end of this year. LG is expected to be mass producing their panels from their new Gen-8 plant by mid 2014. With the current rate things are moving, to squawk at the possibility of affordable OLED panels in 2014 is idiotic and pessimistic. Here one article out of many for you to read, disproving your statement that "there have been no increase in yields". Also, I did not say they would be "flooding the markets", only that they would become more affordable.

http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/article/1690/popularization-oled-tvs-oled-tvs-likely-become-mainstream-sooner-expected
Edited by *UFO* - 12/9/13 at 9:43pm
post #7604 of 9446
Also, Sony has been keeping unusually quiet about their future plans. If Sony decided to roll out their crystal LED sets, OLED would most likely be out of the game for a while. Sony unveiled their crystal led tech in 2012, and have since remained extremely quiet about it. I guess we wont know until the time comes, but to say something cant happen is just being pessimistic. I remember from years ago, every technology advancement there was a large group of people saying "that will never happen soon" or "might as well buy now that wont be mainstream for years" ect. and never once has that been the case.
post #7605 of 9446
^And there are just as many, if not more, promising technological breakthroughs that have died on the vine for one reason or another (SED anyone?). Crystal LED, again? Criminey, hope springs eternal.

Hey, I hope the reports of 70% yields are true with the current manufacturing methods. I have just learned to take glorified PR puff pieces with a grain of salt after being burned many times prior.
post #7606 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^And there are just as many, if not more, promising technological breakthroughs that have died on the vine for one reason or another (SED anyone?). Crystal LED, again? Criminey, hope springs eternal.

Hey, I hope the reports of 70% yields are true with the current manufacturing methods. I have just learned to take glorified PR puff pieces with a grain of salt after being burned many times prior.

SED died because it has superior competing technologies, such as PDP's. There is no competition for OLED currently, with plasma coming close to being considered competition.
post #7607 of 9446
Does anyone have enough brains to make FLAT OLED?

How about a TV with sound so great that it would put any separate system on planet Earth in the toilet?

What country has the lowest wages in the whole world?

If they attempted to make great 4K OLED at an affordable price would they be stopped by LL Cool JJ in NCIS Los Angeles?

If Auburn can beat Alabama like they did--ANYTHING is possible!
post #7608 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Does anyone have enough brains to make FLAT OLED?

How about a TV with sound so great that it would put any separate system on planet Earth in the toilet?

What country has the lowest wages in the whole world?

If they attempted to make great 4K OLED at an affordable price would they be stopped by LL Cool JJ in NCIS Los Angeles?

If Auburn can beat Alabama like they did--ANYTHING is possible!

LOL biggrin.gif
post #7609 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post

SED died because it has superior competing technologies, such as PDP's. There is no competition for OLED currently, with plasma coming close to being considered competition.
I don't know about that. While I agree it had its pros and cons like any display tech (with OLED the first one in a long time having mostly pros and few cons), the economic downturn and the patent trolling were what finished it off.
post #7610 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Does anyone have enough brains to make FLAT OLED?

How about a TV with sound so great that it would put any separate system on planet Earth in the toilet?

What country has the lowest wages in the whole world?

If they attempted to make great 4K OLED at an affordable price would they be stopped by LL Cool JJ in NCIS Los Angeles?

If Auburn can beat Alabama like they did--ANYTHING is possible!

Can I have a second to think about that? smile.gif
post #7611 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I don't know about that. While I agree it had its pros and cons like any display tech (with OLED the first one in a long time having mostly pros and few cons), the economic downturn and the patent trolling were what finished it off.

Either way, the future is unseen and there is no point to discredit any possibility. For all we know, OLED could be another SED tragedy. Heck, we don't even know the longevity of OLED sets. If its anything like the current cell phone OLED's, its not going to be good.The bottom line though is that Samsung and other companies have one goal in mind: to make a profit off of a product that appeals to the masses. This is where 4K was born. It in incredibly easy to make 4K LCD sets because LCD is an extremely mature technology. This is both good and bad. Good because it means that it can be sold at low prices, but bad because it can only be improved upon to a certain point. There is obviously a hidden cost to 4K though, such as manufacturing new 4k media players.
post #7612 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^And there are just as many, if not more, promising technological breakthroughs that have died on the vine for one reason or another (SED anyone?). Crystal LED, again? Criminey, hope springs eternal.

Hey, I hope the reports of 70% yields are true with the current manufacturing methods. I have just learned to take glorified PR puff pieces with a grain of salt after being burned many times prior.

No kidding, bro.

I'm also getting tired of reading between the lines. Making my head hurt. eek.gif

Can't help but wonder how much of the recent price drop of ZTs, VTs, and F8500s is that lower priced OLEDs are closer than we're being told and they want to flush existing plasmas out of the distribution system.
post #7613 of 9446
No they want to flush out the plasmas so they can drop the real big logs into the toilet which are curved OLEDS that cost trillions!
post #7614 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I don't know about that. While I agree it had its pros and cons like any display tech (with OLED the first one in a long time having mostly pros and few cons), the economic downturn and the patent trolling were what finished it off.

Either way, the future is unseen and there is no point to discredit any possibility. For all we know, OLED could be another SED tragedy.

 

No.  SED never left the gate.  OLED did, despite all the grumblings about it's cost and longevity.

post #7615 of 9446
If you can get a good deal on a Panasonic plasma before they stop production or run out of inventory, would you do it or hold off for a couple of years for OLED or some other exotic displays to make it to market?
post #7616 of 9446
If you're willing to hold off on OLED and don't mind buying used - if it was me, i'd get a KURO.
post #7617 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

If you can get a good deal on a Panasonic plasma before they stop production or run out of inventory, would you do it or hold off for a couple of years for OLED or some other exotic displays to make it to market?

The problem is no one can say if OLED will take a couple years. Just as 4K was thought to take years to get to affordable prices, yet 4k prices are falling extremely fast. I would not be surprised if we see a sub $2k 4K set in 2014. Plasma is still an excellent technology though, and it holds its own against OLED. The main advantage you will get with OLED is brightness, which leads to higher contrast ratios. The panasonic plasmas are selling fast because of their aggressive pricing, so waiting is a gamble as you may never be able to get one again.
post #7618 of 9446
Lots of misinformation / half fact running around here. No one ever demonstrated a process for manufacturing SED panels. The technology was interesting, the ability to build them never existed. The patent business was like the guy who adds poison to an IV on a patient already dying in an ICU.

As for OLED, I'm not sure how one can take a stance that "no one can say if OLED will take off" while simultaneously believing claims from LG and Samsung that yields are magically soaring. If yields soar, OLED takes off, period. It's inherently cheaper to make than LCD if you can get yields up and processes perfected. There are simply fewer steps to make them.

The main advantage of OLED isn't brightness leading to higher CR, it's blackness. If it were brightness, LCDs would already have incredible CD. OLEDs have actually mediocre CR brightness (corrected, see bleow) compared to LCDs (somewhat better than the latest plasmas, primarily because they are less ABL limited), but can match/exceed the best plasma blacks.

Incidentally, it would be a major achievement for an LG Gen-8 fab that doesn't exist to be producing panels in 6 months. I'll just say that's extraordinarily unlikely and leave it at that.

As for Panasonic plasmas, while I wouldn't be shocked to see the high-end ZT60 disappear first, it doesn't seem likely the last of these are going to disappear especially fast. It's certainly not yet happening. If it were, pricing would be rising, which it isn't. And if someone gets shut out on a Panasonic (and wants high end), the Samsungs are a viable choice, which really limits the risk of waiting.
Edited by rogo - 12/10/13 at 6:33pm
post #7619 of 9446
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Lots of misinformation / half fact running around here. No one ever demonstrated a process for manufacturing SED panels. The technology was interesting, the ability to build them never existed. The patent business was like the guy who adds poison to an IV on a patient already dying in an ICU.

As for OLED, I'm not sure how one can take a stance that "no one can say if OLED will take off" while simultaneously believing claims from LG and Samsung that yields are magically soaring. If yields soar, OLED takes off, period. It's inherently cheaper to make than LCD if you can get yields up and processes perfected. There are simply fewer steps to make them.

The main advantage of OLED isn't brightness leading to higher CR, it's blackness. If it were brightness, LCDs would already have incredible CD. OLEDs have actually mediocre CR compared to LCDs (somewhat better than the latest plasmas, primarily because they are less ABL limited), but can match/exceed the best plasma blacks.

Incidentally, it would be a major achievement for an LG Gen-8 fab that doesn't exist to be producing panels in 6 months. I'll just say that's extraordinarily unlikely and leave it at that.

As for Panasonic plasmas, while I wouldn't be shocked to see the high-end ZT60 disappear first, it doesn't seem likely the last of these are going to disappear especially fast. It's certainly not yet happening. If it were, pricing would be rising, which it isn't. And if someone gets shut out on a Panasonic (and wants high end), the Samsungs are a viable choice, which really limits the risk of waiting.

You actually thing the contrast ratio of an LCD is higher than OLED? O.o Talk about misinformation... The native contrast ratio of an LCD panel is at BEST 6000:1, while the native contrast ratio of an OLED was measured some where at 60,000:1. When I said the advantage over plasma is brightness, I mean they retain the deep blacks of plasma, but can at the same time achieve a higher white level, this increasing contrast ratio over plasma. No misinformation in my previous post. Im guessing you believe the claims on the box of LCD's that state 1 zillion:1 contrast ratio though...
post #7620 of 9446
I bought a Panny a little over a year ago, so wasn't looking to upgrade any time soon.

But if they're going to disappear soon, I may want to upgrade from my 50-inch to a 55 or 60 inch ST.

I guess even if we get an affordable OLED, it will probably take a couple of iterations before it's solid and consistent in the manufacturing process, not just resulting in lower prices but maybe more refined as far as burn-in issues and how the different colors degrade over time.
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