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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 260

post #7771 of 9480
The flat LG 55EA8809 is for sale for €7999 in my country.

+ OSF210 (Art Frame which includes a 70 watt 2.2 speakersystem) will cost ya only €1.000 extra smile.gif


http://www.mediamarkt.nl/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/MultiChannelSearch?storeId=10259&langId=-11&searchProfile=onlineshop&query=lg%20oled
post #7772 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Before concluding that LG/Samsung massacred and bulldozhed the Japanese one should consider the claim OLED technology can not be economical.

The fact that Korea Inc. is demoing nonsense like "remote control bendable TVs" lends credence to this belief. That said, others without an NIH mentality may pick up the ball and run with next-gen printable tech.
post #7773 of 9480
post #7774 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I think flexible displays are really interesting, though not in most of the ways that a lot of people here probably do. There is almost no way it's interesting to be able to "roll up" your smartphone display. That's just inconvenient and pointless. And there is no roll up material ever invented that will lay flat without some sort of substructure. All the portability of our phones goes away if we have the equivalent of pull-down screens with tech to keep them laying flat.

On the other hand, a smartphone that has a hinge where you can click into place a seamless second panel that has a decent amount of rigidity built into it has interesting potential. If designed right, the device would "just work" as a phone all the time, but allow you to double the screen real estate whenever you wanted. Suddenly, mini-tablets look a lot less interesting and our phones get a lot more versatile. You can imagine screens like this on larger form factor tablets too to create instant workspaces where multiple people can touch a bigger screen or see it (think battlefields and boardrooms).

And, obviously, the resistance to breakage is going to be fantastic. No one is going to be sad about displays breaking less, not even the phone mfrs. who make money from doing the repairs. I know from talking to folks at the Apple stores that they don't generally deal with happy customers over broken screens.

Flexibility may provide other interesting uses, but it's easy to get carried away into believing it's going to be exciting for places it will probably never come. TVs are turned on and off several times a day. The idea of rolling and unrolling them each time is pretty ridiculously inefficient time-wise. But even if you were willing to wait 30 seconds each time, the electronics won't last anywhere near as long under that kind of environment. TVs are already too disposable and most people buy them for 5-10 year periods. The idea that people will pay premium prices to roll them up only to make them even less reliable than they currently are flies in the face of logic. And, quite frankly, we are nowhere near making most of the electronics you'll need transparent or flexible so ugly compromises will be required for a long while to make such TVs even plausible. Don't hold your breath.

But one thing that's lost in this equation, I think, is people don't really appreciate how fast the "television business" as we know it is dying. Across the developing world, cheap tablets with sideloaded content are exploding in usage. They are very likely going to be more popular than TVs there (if they aren't already) within a couple of years. In the U.S., 20somethings and teens have relatively little interest in traditional TV, getting most of their video online. None of this means that there is no room to sell TVs for the living room; of course there is. But there might well be fewer of those sold going forward than almost any forecast for the industry currently predicts.

Consider PC forecasts circa 2008, B.I (before iPad). They assumed growth in the ensuing years. In the meantime PC sales are literally plummeting. It's very possible that TV sales will see a similar (albeit less steep) trajectory.

I'm thinking that adding extra panels is the way to go for both phones and TVs. Panels could slide out from both sides and increase the screen size by a factor of 3, without the problems of a flexible panel. A 120" OLED TV consisting of three panels, each side panel sliding over the center one, would be only 3' by 5' in size when minimized and, easily shipped and moved. The mechanism for the sliding would not be very complicated, and there would be only two seams to blend together. The yields on 3 panels, of essentially 70" diagonal, would be much higher than one 120" panel.
post #7775 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

There are times I hate it when that happens. (This is one of those.)
I don't think it's surprising, but it's still very disappointing.

frown.gif
post #7776 of 9480
Bring on High-Dynamic Range 4K LED-LCD panels. If we can't have OLED, the next best thing is improving the hobbled technology we have.
post #7777 of 9480
This announcement shouldn't be a surprise. Panasonic was on the path to bankruptcy and it was because of the money losing TV business. They've shifted their focus to batteries landing a contract to supply Tesla and to solar panels. Cutting losses and focusing on growth businesses has started them on a much needed turnaround. As far as I know Panasonic has only demoed 1 OLED prototype of any kind ever. Further, Panasonic and Sony disagreed on the approach to OLED TV with Panasonic working on their printing method and Sony looking to expand the VTE approach used in their monitors. Finally, while Panasonic made great plasma TVs their approach to OLEDs, even if successful, would have resulted in lower quality TVs due to the materials they needed to do the printing. Perhaps the Kateeva system will have better results. While OLED TVs are taking longer than hoped this announcement is about Panasonic. Meanwhile, several Chinese display companies are setting up OLED production lines.
post #7778 of 9480
^Thanks, Mr. Bright Side. smile.gif The Tesla partnership could be a lucrative one, fo' sure. Meanwhile, Toshiba is actually interested in reviving its nosediving TV business: http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/ANALYSIS-Toshiba-plans-drastic-turnaround-for-TV-business
post #7779 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

I'm thinking that adding extra panels is the way to go for both phones and TVs. Panels could slide out from both sides and increase the screen size by a factor of 3, without the problems of a flexible panel. A 120" OLED TV consisting of three panels, each side panel sliding over the center one, would be only 3' by 5' in size when minimized and, easily shipped and moved. The mechanism for the sliding would not be very complicated, and there would be only two seams to blend together. The yields on 3 panels, of essentially 70" diagonal, would be much higher than one 120" panel.

You can never make a seam design work for television. Ever. I have posited a "tile design" with single pixel seams that would blend by permanently attaching the tiles and even that has registration issues that might render it nothing short of fantasy. But a design that has seams as a feature will never be accepted by consumers and will, therefore, never be contemplated by manufacturers. It's prospects for a smartphone/phablet design are much greater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I don't think it's surprising, but it's still very disappointing.
frown.gif

Expressing disappointment was the point of my parenthetical remark, in case that was unclear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

This announcement shouldn't be a surprise. Panasonic was on the path to bankruptcy and it was because of the money losing TV business. They've shifted their focus to batteries landing a contract to supply Tesla and to solar panels. Cutting losses and focusing on growth businesses has started them on a much needed turnaround. As far as I know Panasonic has only demoed 1 OLED prototype of any kind ever.

That might be correct.
Quote:
Further, Panasonic and Sony disagreed on the approach to OLED TV with Panasonic working on their printing method and Sony looking to expand the VTE approach used in their monitors.

Sony has no path to mass production using VTE. But that doesn't matter. Sony hasn't made any flat panels of its own in 15 years (save a few small-ish LCDs). The idea that its broadcast OLED facilities are in any way related to eventual TV production is a flight of fancy. They have, from the start of the Panasonic collaboration, planned on outsourcing production. No one (other than Vizio) has ever profited in the flat-panel era using this strategy. Sony's situation is more or less as bad as Panasonic's with the dissolution of this deal.
Quote:
Finally, while Panasonic made great plasma TVs their approach to OLEDs, even if successful, would have resulted in lower quality TVs due to the materials they needed to do the printing. Perhaps the Kateeva system will have better results. While OLED TVs are taking longer than hoped this announcement is about Panasonic. Meanwhile, several Chinese display companies are setting up OLED production lines.

The Chinese also have no path to mass production (unless they are working with Kateeva). The hard part of OLED is making them, not contemplating how they might work. It's been the hard part for a decade. Yes, yes, blue is an issue, but if you could mass produce OLEDs, you'd have a solution to the blue problem, which is that displays would last long enough and would be affordable enough to replace (n.b. I don't consider this optimal, but it's workable).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Thanks, Mr. Bright Side. smile.gif The Tesla partnership could be a lucrative one, fo' sure. Meanwhile, Toshiba is actually interested in reviving its nosediving TV business: http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/ANALYSIS-Toshiba-plans-drastic-turnaround-for-TV-business

This is from the Toshiba article
"Toshiba will also significantly ramp up TV production outsourcing, with the percentage of TV sets made by other companies in Taiwan and elsewhere in overall Toshiba-brand products set to jump to 70% in fiscal 2014 from slightly over 40% at present."

Anyone thinking Toshiba's moves are any more than some financial engineering is mistaken. They aren't trying to "turn around their TV business" in the sense of getting serious about it. They are trying to stop losing hundreds of millions selling ~5% of the world's TVs.

We can't say for sure what Sony's alleged OLED timetable is at this point -- if it even still exists. But it's correct to err on the side of pessimism. There were people here who literally took the gibberish reports out of Asia that Panasonic was going to release an OLED this year seriously. We can now reasonably conclude that Panasonic will never do that. In fact, the odds remain strong that Panasonic will exit the TV business, if not entirely, perhaps fundamentally, in that it might continue to brand product without having anything to do with making it.

Sony's TV business has long been unhealthy as well. Panasonic's de facto exit from the OLED manufacturing tech partnership (and OLED by extension) doesn't make Sony's TV business healthy. Worse still, with 2013 poised to end as a remarkably down year for TV production overall, I have come to believe the TV business has entered a secular decline. While iHS still believes recovery is in the offing, every forecast is bleaker than the prior one and the people that make those forecasts do so for a living. It's not likely they'll be the ones to call "the end of the TV era". But here's a question: Do you think TV sales will be closer to 200 million annually or 300 million annually by the end of the decade?

My bet is the former. And that's not because I believe video watching is on the decline. The problem is emerging markets are increasingly watching video on very inexpensive tablets while established markets are buying dramatically fewer TVs and catalysts like the Japan energy-credit scheme are unlikely to be repeated elsewhere, especially when TVs get replaced regularly enough to handle the downsizing of their power budgets.

What we have to hope for as videophiles is that someone/something picks up the ball and decides that the market that was being serviced by $3000 high-end product needs high-end $3000 product. Whatever technology allows that to be delivered, we'd all welcome.
post #7780 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

.While iHS still believes recovery is in the offing, every forecast is bleaker than the prior one and the people that make those forecasts do so for a living. It's not likely they'll be the ones to call "the end of the TV era". But here's a question: Do you think TV sales will be closer to 200 million annually or 300 million annually by the end of the decade?
My bet is the former. And that's not because I believe video watching is on the decline. The problem is emerging markets are increasingly watching video on very inexpensive tablets while established markets are buying dramatically fewer TVs and catalysts like the Japan energy-credit scheme are unlikely to be repeated elsewhere, especially when TVs get replaced regularly enough to handle the downsizing of their power budgets.
What we have to hope for as videophiles is that someone/something picks up the ball and decides that the market that was being serviced by $3000 high-end product needs high-end $3000 product. Whatever technology allows that to be delivered, we'd all welcome.

Indeed, it seems portable, or even more, pocketable is the TV market, big screens are going way of dinos. Perhaps Kateeva printable OLED will create high-end market by enabling manufacturing without billions of dollars investments.
post #7781 of 9480

This is all so depressing

 

They're picking UHD over OLED. UHD is an insult to home-theater TV IMHO and Plasma is dead. **waaaaaaa*  :-(


Edited by pqwk50 - 12/25/13 at 6:34am
post #7782 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal 
Perhaps the Kateeva system will have better results.
The guy from my link Steven Van Slyke, who co-invented OLED, is the Chief Technology Officer of Kateeva, that is the main reason why they got lots of funding IMO, does not mean Kateeva is going anywere..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A_PrKBiWxo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal 
This announcement shouldn't be a surprise. Panasonic was on the path to bankruptcy and it was because of the money losing TV business. They've shifted their focus to batteries landing a contract to supply Tesla and to solar panels. Cutting losses and focusing on growth businesses has started them on a much needed turnaround. As far as I know Panasonic has only demoed 1 OLED prototype of any kind ever. Further, Panasonic and Sony disagreed on the approach to OLED TV with Panasonic working on their printing method and Sony looking to expand the VTE approach used in their monitors. Finally, while Panasonic made great plasma TVs their approach to OLEDs, even if successful, would have resulted in lower quality TVs due to the materials they needed to do the printing.
According The Wall Street Journal sharing information had allowed Sony and Panasonic to enhance the speed of production for OLEDs. Dispite ending the Alliance for now, they may still explore cooperation on production technology for OLED panels in the future.
post #7783 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Sony has no path to mass production using VTE. ... The Chinese also have no path to mass production (unless they are working with Kateeva).
Sony won't be producing TVs. Their program is about a path to production for their partner AUO. As long as its a new entrant that's a good thing. AUO's problem is the Chinese companies keep hiring all their engineers. What the Chinese companies have that Sony and Panasonic do not is money to invest. They are buying equipment from Korea and engineers from Taiwan. We'll have to wait a couple years to see if it works or not but they seem to be giving it a go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, yes, blue is an issue, but if you could mass produce OLEDs, you'd have a solution to the blue problem, which is that displays would last long enough and would be affordable enough to replace (n.b. I don't consider this optimal, but it's workable).
There are advances being made in blue materials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The guy from my link Steven Van Slyke, who co-invented OLED, is the Chief Technology Officer of Kateeva, that is the main reason why they got lots of funding IMO, does not mean Kateeva is going anywere..
There have been several systems touted as the solution to ink jet printing and Kateeva is just the latest. The thing that is interesting in their solution is it is done in a nitrogen environment. One of the key reasons ink jet printing hasn't worked is exposure to air during printing degrades the OLED materials. One of they ways they turn an OLED powder into a solution is adding nitrogen so this is an interesting idea. The cost of the equipment is still comparable to VTE equipment. There is interest in it from the industry but it'll be a real solution only if we see production equipment orders.
post #7784 of 9480
Personally, I dont think this should change anybody's idea of the viability of OLED's very much at all. Panasonic was never serious about following through with their announcement. It was a technology demo and nothing more.

A reasonably priced (sub-$4000) OLED television in 2015 depends on LG and to a lesser extent Samsung. The same will likely be true in 2016 though we'll know more after CES. Anybody getting a commercial Gen 8 fab ready for 2016 is going to need to have a real product announcement very soon.

All of the steps that could reasonably be expected to be taken in 2013 have been. LG and Samsung launched OLED televisions at exorbitant prices in limited geographies in the spring. Prices came down, much more rapidly than anybody expected, and geographies have expanded greatly. Reviews have been universally good and thus far, we have yet to see a duplication of the image retention that was seen on the demo at Harrod's. LG Display has announced their Gen 8 fab and expect to ramp it in the 2nd half of 2014. There was also an article in the Korean press about increased yields prior to the latest UK price cuts.

The question is whether LG follows through on their fab commitment. There are no guarantees but the fact that all of the above has happened makes me believe that there is a reasonably good chance that it will. I would be even more confident if we saw the UK price cut duplicated here though it must be said that you can now buy the LG television for $6750 (or best offer) on Ebay. That kind of pricing bodes well for competitive high-end pricing when a commercial Gen 8 fab ramps.
post #7785 of 9480

I'm hopping Samsung and LG see this as an opportunity to bring their best game for plasma and OLED's 2104 line-up.  CES is less than 2 weeks away so we'll all learn what 2014 will bring us in these vital display categories.  I have very high hopes.

post #7786 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by pqwk50 View Post

This is all so depressing

They're picking UHD over OLED. UHD is an insult to home-theater TV IMHO and Plasma is dead. **waaaaaaa*  :-(
That's just great...mad.gif
Plasma is dying, OLEDs remain hyper expensive (and too small), and so we'll all be condemned to the slow death of 'LCD/LED hell'...
Trouble is, the general HDTV buying public at large is too ignorant to care and too absorbed with their 'ibuds' and tablets...Grrrrr...
post #7787 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

Indeed, it seems portable, or even more, pocketable is the TV market, big screens are going way of dinos. Perhaps Kateeva printable OLED will create high-end market by enabling manufacturing without billions of dollars investments.

We can hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The guy from my link Steven Van Slyke, who co-invented OLED, is the Chief Technology Officer of Kateeva, that is the main reason why they got lots of funding IMO, does not mean Kateeva is going anywere..

No, that doesn't. What might mean they're going somewhere is they've built a machine that allows someone to print OLEDs. No one else has done that.
Quote:
According The Wall Street Journal sharing information had allowed Sony and Panasonic to enhance the speed of production for OLEDs. Dispite ending the Alliance for now, they may still explore cooperation on production technology for OLED panels in the future.

Those kind of weasel words are always said when alliances end in business, especially among the Japanese. It's not possible to see them as bullish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

Sony won't be producing TVs. Their program is about a path to production for their partner AUO. As long as its a new entrant that's a good thing. AUO's problem is the Chinese companies keep hiring all their engineers. What the Chinese companies have that Sony and Panasonic do not is money to invest. They are buying equipment from Korea and engineers from Taiwan. We'll have to wait a couple years to see if it works or not but they seem to be giving it a go.

So that's fair, but... Sony doing something to maybe get AUO to make OLED TVs is the a great example of the metaphor "pushing on a string." And as for the Chinese companies maybe doing something down the road, well, you are looking at product in 2018 or so -- at the earliest -- even if they are committed.
Quote:
There are advances being made in blue materials.

I'm not worried about that either, ynot. I tried to imply in my statement you replied to that I believe the problem will take care of itself.
Quote:
There have been several systems touted as the solution to ink jet printing and Kateeva is just the latest. The thing that is interesting in their solution is it is done in a nitrogen environment. One of the key reasons ink jet printing hasn't worked is exposure to air during printing degrades the OLED materials. One of they ways they turn an OLED powder into a solution is adding nitrogen so this is an interesting idea. The cost of the equipment is still comparable to VTE equipment. There is interest in it from the industry but it'll be a real solution only if we see production equipment orders.

Of course, money talks and the other stuff walks. The cost of equipment might be comparable to VTE, but the cost of production will be far lower if the tech does even half what it's supposed to. Higher yields, higher throughput and far lower material waste all seem to be givens, the question is by what margin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Personally, I dont think this should change anybody's idea of the viability of OLED's very much at all. Panasonic was never serious about following through with their announcement. It was a technology demo and nothing more.

This is true and not true. The robustness of the ecosystem matters a lot. Removing Panasonic and mostly removing Sony from the ecosystem makes it less robust. And so instead of growing the ecosystem, they won't be.
Quote:
A reasonably priced (sub-$4000) OLED television in 2015 depends on LG and to a lesser extent Samsung. The same will likely be true in 2016 though we'll know more after CES. Anybody getting a commercial Gen 8 fab ready for 2016 is going to need to have a real product announcement very soon.

Yes, and we've been promised that fab for a while now. I'm going to reserve judgment and skip making a production.
Quote:
All of the steps that could reasonably be expected to be taken in 2013 have been. LG and Samsung launched OLED televisions at exorbitant prices in limited geographies in the spring. Prices came down, much more rapidly than anybody expected, and geographies have expanded greatly. Reviews have been universally good and thus far, we have yet to see a duplication of the image retention that was seen on the demo at Harrod's. LG Display has announced their Gen 8 fab and expect to ramp it in the 2nd half of 2014. There was also an article in the Korean press about increased yields prior to the latest UK price cuts.

That's certainly a glass-half-full view of the situation. I disagree fundamentally with you, however. The IHS and/or DisplaySearch forecasts a year ago had 200-300K OLED TV shipments as predicted for 2013. Those were based on talking to... Samsung and LG. Instead, there is scant evidence we reached 10,000. The 2013 forecasts are now the 2014 forecasts. We lost a year.
Quote:
The question is whether LG follows through on their fab commitment. There are no guarantees but the fact that all of the above has happened makes me believe that there is a reasonably good chance that it will.

Or, we can read things differently. They made a few, no one bought them at all. They lowered the prices to the move the few they bought. They teased the market about the future to make sure no one thought this would be an orphan technology. That sold curves and teased bendables because "better" got the tech nowhere. A "red herring", UHD, got the attention because it was marketable, and is now bringing in the money. In truth, nothing has been done about yields that matters, which is why you see prices still so high and more gimmicks like remote-control bending being discussed. Keep prices up to keep demand we can't satisfy down.

Is that happening? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't think it's an implausible read of 2013, however.
Quote:
I would be even more confident if we saw the UK price cut duplicated here though it must be said that you can now buy the LG television for $6750 (or best offer) on Ebay. That kind of pricing bodes well for competitive high-end pricing when a commercial Gen 8 fab ramps.

I'm struggling to read much into $6500 vs. $9000. I actually don't think the demand needle moves much there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

I'm hopping Samsung and LG see this as an opportunity to bring their best game for plasma and OLED's 2104 line-up.  CES is less than 2 weeks away so we'll all learn what 2014 will bring us in these vital display categories.  I have very high hopes.

J.K.? Is that you?
post #7788 of 9480
So I got a PS Vita as a gift for christmas. It is the OLED model with a 5" screen. I also have a PS4 and with the two I can mirror the PS4 to the vita and play on both screens, allowing me to compare the screens. I compared it to my plasma and was surprised just how much better it is than the plasma. Deeper colors, deeper blacks, and much brighter whites. If it was 65" it would be the perfect tv. Cant wait for OLED to become mainstream biggrin.gif
post #7789 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


That's certainly a glass-half-full view of the situation. I disagree fundamentally with you, however. The IHS and/or DisplaySearch forecasts a year ago had 200-300K OLED TV shipments as predicted for 2013. Those were based on talking to... Samsung and LG. Instead, there is scant evidence we reached 10,000. The 2013 forecasts are now the 2014 forecasts. We lost a year.

Or, we can read things differently. They made a few, no one bought them at all. They lowered the prices to the move the few they bought. They teased the market about the future to make sure no one thought this would be an orphan technology. That sold curves and teased bendables because "better" got the tech nowhere. A "red herring", UHD, got the attention because it was marketable, and is now bringing in the money. In truth, nothing has been done about yields that matters, which is why you see prices still so high and more gimmicks like remote-control bending being discussed. Keep prices up to keep demand we can't satisfy down.

Is that happening? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't think it's an implausible read of 2013, however.
I'm struggling to read much into $6500 vs. $9000. I actually don't think the demand needle moves much there.

How you see a price cut to $6500 depends on the context. It is meaningless if you define it in terms of the total television market or even the >50" market. OTOH, it matters quite a bit in terms of LG's total current capacity/shipments. I think you agreed that a $6000 price point could likely get them into the 10,000 units a month range. I dont see any point to cutting prices that dramatically to move more units from a pilot fab where you are losing money.

Personally, I dont find your explanation unreasonable though, I just think that that the sequence of events over the last year points to substantial progress. The proof will be in the timing of the LG fab. The last "real" news we heard was from August when they were installing their first production equipment. The rumors though pointed to the fact that management had yet to make some of the final decisions pertaining to timing/capacity. If LG has a chance of making a 2014 ramp, those decisions will have to have been made by their first quarter earnings call.
post #7790 of 9480
post #7791 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

How you see a price cut to $6500 depends on the context. It is meaningless if you define it in terms of the total television market or even the >50" market. OTOH, it matters quite a bit in terms of LG's total current capacity/shipments. I think you agreed that a $6000 price point could likely get them into the 10,000 units a month range. I dont see any point to cutting prices that dramatically to move more units from a pilot fab where you are losing money.

Yes. Agree with you (and haven't changed my belief from what I said earlier).
Quote:
Personally, I dont find your explanation unreasonable though, I just think that that the sequence of events over the last year points to substantial progress.

And, to be fair, it points to progress for sure. I was just painting a picture where the "progress" could be viewed through a glass-half-empty perspective.
Quote:
The proof will be in the timing of the LG fab. The last "real" news we heard was from August when they were installing their first production equipment. The rumors though pointed to the fact that management had yet to make some of the final decisions pertaining to timing/capacity. If LG has a chance of making a 2014 ramp, those decisions will have to have been made by their first quarter earnings call.

Which I know you'll do a good job of sussing out the details of/reading between the lines of. I look forward to it.
post #7792 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

An Australian retailer drops the price of the LG OLED from $12,000 AUD to $8000 AUD.
http://www.harveynorman.com.au/lg-55-full-hd-3d-capable-smart-curved-oled-tv.html?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Post&utm_campaign=HN%20LG%20OLED%20TV%20Dec13

It looks this is one more sign of global clearing of too expensive OLED inventories clogging the retail channels. It is not an indicatíon progress been made on the manufacturing side justifying reduction of prices. Samsung and LG have very deep pockets and tankers full of company/national pride to subsidize manufacturing, but economy can not be avoided in the long run.
Edited by irkuck - 12/26/13 at 5:10am
post #7793 of 9480
Quote:
"Sony and Panasonic end OLED TV partnership
Dec 26, 2013 Maan Pamintuan Business No Comments


Japan’s two largest consumer electric companies, Sony Corp and Panasonic Corp have announced that they will end their joint development of OLED (organic light emitting diode) TV screens. They will instead focus on making conventional LCD (liquid crystal display) screens for 4K ultra high-definition TVs which seem to be more marketable.

The two companies have been struggling in recent years against their South Korean rivals who had a bigger share in the overseas market. They built the OLED alliance June of last year to create more mass-production technology by the end of 2013 but as the months passed, it was clear that they will not hit their target. OLED panels, which are used in Samsung tablets and smartphones are more expensive especially when used on bigger sized screens such as televisions.

Sales of the OLED technology developed by both companies have failed to reach the growth they initially envisioned and seems to be not commercially viable in the near future. They will however continue to develop this technology independently as both have shown 56-inch OLED televisions in this year’s Consumer electronics show (CES). Even LG Electronics Inc, the leading OLED television maker, still has to get traction in their market sales as it is still relatively more expensive that its LCD counterparts."

Unfortunate bit of bad news.
post #7794 of 9480
^Reality bit-es biggrin.gif
post #7795 of 9480
And hardly surprising given the absolute blackout of developments since the partnership was engaged less than a year ago.

Also already being discussed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post

TOKYO -- With steep technical hurdles still standing in the way of commercial production, Sony and Panasonic have decided to break off their OLED TV tie-up and focus instead on high-demand 4K technology.

The partnership, arranged in June of last year, involved developing mass-production methods for panels consisting of organic light-emitting diodes, a key component of the TVs.

The two companies had planned to combine Panasonic's production method, which involves printing organic material onto a substrate, with Sony's OLED technology. They aimed to establish a technological base for mass production in 2013, potentially working together on manufacturing thereafter.

But they were unable to make the panels durable enough, nor to cut production costs. The electronics firms decided not to renew their tie-up contract when it expires at the end of the year, and will instead pursue development independently.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Technical-difficulties-foil-Sony-Panasonic-OLED-effort
post #7796 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer Insider View Post

I'm hopping Samsung and LG see this as an opportunity to bring their best game for plasma and OLED's 2104 line-up.  CES is less than 2 weeks away so we'll all learn what 2014 will bring us in these vital display categories.  I have very high hopes.

LOL, I still remember 30 years ago buying my $199 19" Lucky Goldstar TV at the local Richway. If you would have told me then, that LG and Samsung would be the defenders of high quality displays, I would have laughed in your face. Sad truth is just like then, the low cost makers will someday be king. China has already gutted the Japanese makers and now Korea and Taiwan are next. There is no way to stop it. You can not compete against their prison and slave labor, government subsidized factories, raw materials and lacks environmental regulations. The only thing we can hope for is that they decide to produce OLED as halo tech. They can eat the poor yields or get the printing method going and still sell it at mass produced prices.
post #7797 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

LOL, I still remember 30 years ago buying my $199 19" Lucky Goldstar TV at the local Richway. If you would have told me then, that LG and Samsung would be the defenders of high quality displays, I would have laughed in your face. Sad truth is just like then, the low cost makers will someday be king. China has already gutted the Japanese makers and now Korea and Taiwan are next. There is no way to stop it. You can not compete against their prison and slave labor, government subsidized factories, raw materials and lacks environmental regulations. The only thing we can hope for is that they decide to produce OLED as halo tech. They can eat the poor yields or get the printing method going and still sell it at mass produced prices.

This is why 3D printing is going to change everything.
post #7798 of 9480

The level of premature gloom and doom here is nutty.  Relax, put down the sharp instruments, and back slowly away from the ledge.

 

The rest of you, move along, nothing to see here.  We'll get them down when the fire department arrives with a ladder.

post #7799 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The level of premature gloom and doom here is nutty.  Relax, put down the sharp instruments, and back slowly away from the ledge.

I don't know. The TV business itself is in the "doom and gloom" phase. The people that invented the modern era of it, Japan Inc., are either gone or getting close to exiting. The "innovation" is pixels, which presaged the death of the standalone camera business as an interesting place. (Yes, yes, new improved models come out every year. What's remarkable about them is how little they improve at taking definitively better pictures however.)

For 10 years, many thought OLED would bring videophile picture quality to the masses. It does remain possible that day will never come. Perhaps it's even likely?

In the meantime, a fairly videophile-quality $3000 65-inch display is leaving the market. And in its place (assuming Samsung also drops plasma soon) is... nothing.

I'd say that warrants doom and gloom.
post #7800 of 9480
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, yes, new improved models come out every year. What's remarkable about them is how little they improve at taking definitively better pictures however.
Sensitivity and dynamic range have improved dramatically in the past few years, and resolution has steadily increased. Manufacturers seem to be paying more attention to their optics now, and devices now have enough power to perform lens corrections themselves, rather than doing it on a PC later. (fixing distortion, vignetting, chromatic aberrations etc.)
I think it's disingenuous to say that camera technology has not improved much.

The problem is that everyone has switched from point & shoot cameras with moderately-sized sensors and reasonable optics to cell-phone cameras with tiny sensors and plastic lenses.
Due to the advances in sensor technology, you can now get image quality comparable to an older P&S in a phone now, which is quite an achievement when you consider the size of the sensors they're using.

vBUgpe4.jpg

OeKQc8r.jpg

You don't think that's "definitively better"?

Most of the point & shoot market has been left behind now though, so perhaps they have not seen such dramatic improvements - at least at the lower end. I think the higher-end Sony cameras like the RX100 still put out good image quality, but the stand-alone camera market seems more focused on compact interchangeable lens systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

For 10 years, many thought OLED would bring videophile picture quality to the masses. It does remain possible that day will never come. Perhaps it's even likely?
You say that as if CRTs never existed, where you could get better image quality than the majority of flat panels in existence, at much lower prices. (but also at smaller sizes)
While there was still a high-end market there, the gulf in image quality was not nearly so dramatic. The baseline CRT quality was much better than the baseline for flat panel image quality.
The problem is that for the last 10 years, people have compromised significantly on image quality with the move to flat panels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

In the meantime, a fairly videophile-quality $3000 65-inch display is leaving the market. And in its place (assuming Samsung also drops plasma soon) is... nothing.

I'd say that warrants doom and gloom.
It really does seem like there will be at least a couple of years of crappy edge-lit LCDs before the OLED panels are down near the price of the outgoing Panasonic plasmas. Without any pressure from Japan now, that could slow down even more. I really don't want to be buying an LG or Samsung as my next display.
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