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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 27

post #781 of 5865
12/28/08 at 9:03am
I'll bring the silver bullets, you bring the wooden stake.
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post #782 of 5865
12/28/08 at 11:58pm
Thread Starter 
Cheaper OLED TV on the horizon
22 December 2008
Upper Left: Flexible TFT using Amorphous Oxide Semiconductor
Upper Right: Prototype of Flexible Electronic Paper Display
Bottom: Close-up of Prototype using Amorphous Oxide Semiconductor TFT (on glass substrate)


Samsung has developed an improved manufacturing process for the manufacture of OLED TV's which is set to dramatically cut the cost of their production.

OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diode) technology is based on organic materials which emit light naturally after an electrical charge is passed through them. OLED pixels generate their own light which brings a whole host of technological advantages. Every OLED prototype we have seen produces brighter, sharper images while using less power than any plasma or LCD TV.

OLED and LCD TV's use the same fundamental technology to create an image. A set of transistors (TFT) instruct the pixels which colour to display in order to create the image.

Previously, the set of transistors in OLED/LCD TV's have been made of amorphous silicon which is not only expensive to produce but prone to failure. Samsung have developed amorphous oxide TFTs, which are much more cost effective and reliable.

The new technology can actually be applied to LCD, AM OLED, thin film solar cell and LED. Amorphous Oxide TFT's can integrate into current LCD panel mass production processes and potentially lower manufacturing cost significantly.
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post #783 of 5865
12/29/08 at 3:47pm
More good news. Things really seem to be happening faster and faster.
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post #784 of 5865
1/2/09 at 9:29am
OQO's Next UMPC Will Include OLED Touchscreen
BY: Ed Hardy, Brighthand.com Editor
PUBLISHED: 1/1/2009

OQO is set to unveil an updated version of it Ultra Mobile PC. Like its predecessors, this will be a tiny PC running the regular version of Windows, but the upcoming model will add some new features, including an OLED touchscreen.



OQO's current UMPC, the model 2, looks like a slightly larger than normal handheld, but runs either Windows XP or Vista.

The current version uses a track stick pointing device to control a cursor, but the next edition -- the OQO model 2+ -- will add a touchscreen. Rather than this being a standard LED, this will be an organic LED, which should use less power.

But this won't be the only change. The upcoming model will be based on a 1.86 GHz Intel Atom processor, rather than a slightly slower one from VIA as the current model does.

Also, OQO says the model 2+ will sport "worldwide 3G capability," which almost certainly means it will have HSDPA, and possible HSUPA, too. EV-DO Rev A is an option for its predecessor.

This pre-announcement information comes directly from OQO, who says the model 2+ will be unveiled at CES in mid-January.

There's no word yet on what this UMPC will cost, but the current version starts at $1,300.
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post #785 of 5865
1/5/09 at 8:10am
CES 2009 expo is only a few days away......

Can't wait for more OLED news and updates here

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post #786 of 5865
1/6/09 at 9:38am
Just read a PC World report that says the 50 inch OLED at CES is a Sony. Earlier video from CNet says its a Sammy. Guess we have to wait and see. The 11 inch Sony OLED TV is just wonderful to behold. Wish I could have made it to CES this year.. maybe next.

Below is a hotlinnk and quote from the PC World article.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/15638...spotlight.html


"Sony is rumored to show off a 50-inch OLED TV prototype. That's a big jump from its shipping 11-inch XEL-1 model. We also expect abuse of the phrase "You can't be too rich or too thin" when it comes to discussing HDTVs at this year's CES."
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post #787 of 5865
1/6/09 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 
Samsung teases with 50-inch OLED TV for CES, scolds us for caring
3 December 2008

When SED development hit the brakes a few years ago, OLED technology quickly stepped in to fill the emptiness felt by our fickle hearts' desire for the blackest of blacks. Up until now, prototype OLED panels have been limited to a max size of about 40-inches. But these won't be available for consumers until 2010 or so. For now, we're "stuck with" Sony's little 11-inch XEL-1 if anyone actually wants to purchase an OLED TV for their living room kitchen. Samsung's vice president of flat panel development, HS Kim, says that Sammy "may demonstrate" a 50-inch OLED TV at CES in January but quickly tempers any enthusiasm with a crushing blow of reality,
"I'm sure that if we marketed such a set at ten times the price of current LCD TVs, which is what it would be now, no-one would buy it." Kim then shifts into sales-mode by pointing out that Samsung's more power-efficient 240Hz LCDs and Plasmas with highly-reflective black panels and LED edge-lighting are quickly cutting into any advantage offered by OLEDs -- including thinness if you factor in the additional electronics you'd have to slap onto the back of those 3-mm thick OLED panels to create a TV. Of course, manufacturers can also dump all that tech into a display-side box much like Sony does with it's XEL-1, but hey, he's on a roll. When the interview with What Hi-Fi ended, Kim presumably kicked a puppy just to drive his points home.
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post #788 of 5865
1/6/09 at 6:24pm
vicious puppy!
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post #789 of 5865
1/6/09 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma View Post

Samsung teases with 50-inch OLED TV for CES, scolds us for caring
3 December 2008
"I'm sure that if we marketed such a set at ten times the price of current LCD TVs, which is what it would be now, no-one would buy it." Kim then shifts into sales-mode by pointing out that Samsung's more power-efficient 240Hz LCDs and Plasmas with highly-reflective black panels and LED edge-lighting are quickly cutting into any advantage offered by OLEDs -- including thinness if you factor in the additional electronics you'd have to slap onto the back of those 3-mm thick OLED panels to create a TV. Of course, manufacturers can also dump all that tech into a display-side box much like Sony does with it's XEL-1, but hey, he's on a roll. When the interview with What Hi-Fi ended, Kim presumably kicked a puppy just to drive his points home.

Just like what we've been saying here for 2 years now.
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post #790 of 5865
1/9/09 at 7:23pm
Thread Starter 
Eyes on with LG's near-production 15-inch OLED TV: come on summer
7 January 2009





































While Sony's OLED TV is little more than a beautiful, 11-inch novelty, LG is swaggering dangerously close to a respectable kitchen TV with this 15-inch AMOLED TV prototype. On display here at CES and planned for a production run sometime this summer, the image is absolutely stunning -- every bit as impressive as the Sony's XEL-1. Nothing else compares to the incredible contrast achieved by these OLED displays. Have a look in the gallery -- we've got the prototype pictured with and without its chubby TV bezel. It's credit-card thin (0.8-mm) and only on Engadget.
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post #791 of 5865
1/10/09 at 5:16pm
15-inch LG oled is as beautiful as Sony's 11".

My biggest hope is that Phillips is going to pioneer oled tv mass production together with LG.
Sony, Samsung, Panasonic want to continue selling lcds and plasmas forever. They get no respect from me.
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post #792 of 5865
1/11/09 at 9:59am
phillips? they make awful stuff so i dont know why you'd want them to mass produce new tech. your biggest hope? hahaha.

anyhow, i came here to ask about OLED announcements from Samsung and Sony.

why havent they announced anything? i was expecting 32 inch OLEDs this year...
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post #793 of 5865
1/11/09 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

phillips? they make awful stuff so i dont know why you'd want them to mass produce new tech. your biggest hope? hahaha.

anyhow, i came here to ask about OLED announcements from Samsung and Sony.

why havent they announced anything? i was expecting 32 inch OLEDs this year...

hahaha
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post #794 of 5865
1/12/09 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

phillips? they make awful stuff so i dont know why you'd want them to mass produce new tech. your biggest hope? hahaha.

anyhow, i came here to ask about OLED announcements from Samsung and Sony.

why havent they announced anything? i was expecting 32 inch OLEDs this year...

All it would take is one company even phillips to take the lead. Others would then panic and come to market to not be left out.

The reason the others are so stubborn and sitting on their hands with OLED is that they want to milk their LCD plasma factories as much as they can. It is all about money.
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post #795 of 5865
1/13/09 at 6:42am
Has it been long since Philips forgot about making awesome High-end LCD TV's and started making "awful stuff"? haha
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post #796 of 5865
1/13/09 at 9:22am
Do I hear black helicopters?
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post #797 of 5865
1/14/09 at 4:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii View Post

Has it been long since Philips forgot about making awesome High-end LCD TV's and started making "awful stuff"? haha

Like this Cinema 21:9 LCD TV? Hahaha.
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post #798 of 5865
1/15/09 at 2:29am
I love oled ever since I got to see the little sony ( man its good! ) and even if they are small I would buy one as soon as the price is at least affordable, what ever that is...
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post #799 of 5865
1/15/09 at 2:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii View Post

Has it been long since Philips forgot about making awesome High-end LCD TV's and started making "awful stuff"? haha

I am a bit in love with a new philips right now actually! one of the best tvs I have ever seen is the new LED lCD they have, its fantastic! the only thing i dont like is the scroll wheel on the remote.
its got the brightness of a LCD but the blacks of a kuro ( even better maybe!).
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post #800 of 5865
1/17/09 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC19 View Post

All it would take is one company even phillips to take the lead. Others would then panic and come to market to not be left out.

The reason the others are so stubborn and sitting on their hands with OLED is that they want to milk their LCD plasma factories as much as they can. It is all about money.

That 2500$ 11" OLED from SONY didn't induce any mass panics in the industry. It seems the economic woes sweeping through the world of electronics has hampered any and all enthusiasm for OLED technology. In that interview with the Samsung guy it is clear that their company policy has shifted from promoting OLED to talking it down as an expensive novelty in favour of talking up their current LCD offerings, such as the upcoming LED backlight Luxia line. Why would Samsung want to wet the appetites of potential customers with the holy grail of display technology still many years off when the sales of their bread and butter LCD's are about to hit a roof?

SONY is set to post more than 1 billion operating loss for this fiscal year come this march 31st and has scheduled a more than 10.000 heads being shortened and separated from their company as a result. Maybe we can hope that SONY has more vision than Samsung and will continue to invest money in bringing OLED to the market faster than everyone else. But with their economic problems, the PS3 being in the third place and sales of their LCD line going down and loosing ground to Samsung I'd say I wouldn't blame them if they mothball the whole OLED thing until all those things have been taken care off, which won't be anytime soon.

As it stands the 11" SONY OLED coming to the market so soon seems more and more like it was a just a fluke and not the beginning of the OLED floodgates being opened on the market. I was hoping to see a 40" OLED by the end of 2009 back in the beginning of 2008 but now it seems 2010 or later is a more likely date for that to happen. Meanwhile I have to cringe every time I see the subpar quality on my current inferior LCD display technology. As it stand I can't imagine I will be able to stand my current display for more than a year, unfortunately by then there still will not be a OLED TV for me to replace it with. Can't a videophile catch a break?
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post #801 of 5865
1/18/09 at 4:11pm
After all the stuff I've read on OLED (including in this very thread), there's an issue which has only been mentioned once (it was from a single post at Slashdot who saw the Sony 11").

Flicker.

Apparently, the Sony 11" flickers like the old CRTs did. What's going on? I though these new OLEDs shone the pixel for a full 60th of a second, until the next 60th of a second, and then changed it (or switched off to black).

If this is true, then assuming a supposedly 'constant' white pixel, how much of the pixel remains white, and how much black? Is it 50/50?
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post #802 of 5865
1/18/09 at 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by -=Kamikaze=- View Post

That 2500$ 11" OLED from SONY didn't induce any mass panics in the industry. It seems the economic woes sweeping through the world of electronics has hampered any and all enthusiasm for OLED technology. In that interview with the Samsung guy it is clear that their company policy has shifted from promoting OLED to talking it down as an expensive novelty in favour of talking up their current LCD offerings, such as the upcoming LED backlight Luxia line. Why would Samsung want to wet the appetites of potential customers with the holy grail of display technology still many years off when the sales of their bread and butter LCD's are about to hit a roof?

SONY is set to post more than 1 billion operating loss for this fiscal year come this march 31st and has scheduled a more than 10.000 heads being shortened and separated from their company as a result. Maybe we can hope that SONY has more vision than Samsung and will continue to invest money in bringing OLED to the market faster than everyone else. But with their economic problems, the PS3 being in the third place and sales of their LCD line going down and loosing ground to Samsung I'd say I wouldn't blame them if they mothball the whole OLED thing until all those things have been taken care off, which won't be anytime soon.

As it stands the 11" SONY OLED coming to the market so soon seems more and more like it was a just a fluke and not the beginning of the OLED floodgates being opened on the market. I was hoping to see a 40" OLED by the end of 2009 back in the beginning of 2008 but now it seems 2010 or later is a more likely date for that to happen. Meanwhile I have to cringe every time I see the subpar quality on my current inferior LCD display technology. As it stand I can't imagine I will be able to stand my current display for more than a year, unfortunately by then there still will not be a OLED TV for me to replace it with. Can't a videophile catch a break?

I guess I should have said "As soon as a company produces the *first decent sized and affordable* OLED then the rest will follow". That Sony OLED was pointless. It is too small, too expensive, and too low resolution to make an impact. If they would have come out with at least a 32" set at least true 720P resolution and cost $1800 it would have been a bit different.

The problem is that most of the time good is good enough for the masses. People aren't dumping their DVDs in favor of blu-ray en masse either. DVD for most people is good enough. It just isn't worth the extra cost to upgrade all af their equipment for a picture that is "a little crisper". They will just say "My old DVD player still works, and I don't notice much difference or don't care"

The same goes for TVs. Their LCD or PDP is good enough. The masses just aren't bothered much by black levels, brightness , viewing angle, response time, etc. The thing driving OLED right now is small devices where thickness and power consumption are most important.
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post #803 of 5865
1/18/09 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

After all the stuff I've read on OLED (including in this very thread), there's an issue which has only been mentioned once (it was from a single post at Slashdot who saw the Sony 11").

Flicker.

Apparently, the Sony 11" flickers like the old CRTs did. What's going on? I though these new OLEDs shone the pixel for a full 60th of a second, until the next 60th of a second, and then changed it (or switched off to black).

If this is true, then assuming a supposedly 'constant' white pixel, how much of the pixel remains white, and how much black? Is it 50/50?

There have been many posts on this subject. The flicker is there to prevent hold-type blurring which LCDs suffer from because they use a 100% duty cycle. The problem is that in this mode of operation the panel must increase the current through the OLED material which degrades the lifetime. I'm not sure what duty cycle the XEL-1 uses but it definitely flickers similar to a CRT.
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post #804 of 5865
1/18/09 at 4:55pm
Interesting - thanks, obviously I haven't read enough. Is it possible for future OLED tech to avoid this? Can certain types of OLED (such as TOLED, POLED, PHOLED etc.) avoid this flickering?

Also, do you know in what proportion of black to white. Is it something like: on for 1/120th of a second, then off for a further 120th?

I think I read earlier that simply increasing the refresh rate to 120 or 240hz would prevent it too, similar to what the latest LCDs do.
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post #805 of 5865
1/18/09 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Interesting - thanks, obviously I haven't read enough. Is it possible for future OLED tech to avoid this? Can certain types of OLED (such as TOLED, POLED, PHOLED etc.) avoid this flickering?

Also, do you know in what proportion of black to white. Is it something like: on for 1/120th of a second, then off for a further 120th?

I think I read earlier that simply increasing the refresh rate to 120 or 240hz would prevent it too, similar to what the latest LCDs do.

It is far more likely that OLED will use zero flicker, 100% duty cycle type systems as this maximizes lifetime. However, at 60Hz there is considerable blur associated with this type of system. Yes, 120 or 240Hz driving can overcome the blur and still keep 100% duty cycle but you will have to get used to interpolated frame type look of the image (similar to Samsung's AMP)
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post #806 of 5865
1/18/09 at 5:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

Interesting - thanks, obviously I haven't read enough. Is it possible for future OLED tech to avoid this? Can certain types of OLED (such as TOLED, POLED, PHOLED etc.) avoid this flickering?

...

I think I read earlier that simply increasing the refresh rate to 120 or 240hz would prevent it too, similar to what the latest LCDs do.

Ideally, you do not want to eliminate the actual flickering because that will cause "sample and hold" blur. Ideally, I think having the pixels scan on and off with a 120Hz or 240Hz frequency will get you the best of both worlds - no perceptible flicker and no sample and hold blur.
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post #807 of 5865
1/18/09 at 6:06pm
Good to know that OLED can at least potentially overcome this.

Quote:


but you will have to get used to interpolated frame type look of the image

No interpolation if you just repeat each frame again. a, a, b, b, c, c etc..

Quote:


Ideally, you do not want to eliminate the actual flickering because that will cause "sample and hold" blur.

I assume you mean in the case of OLED that this holds. Intrinsically, eliminating flicker is a 'Good Thing' and doesn't necessarily lead to blur, except in the case of OLED, LCD etc where a side effect is unfortunately produced.

Am I still right in saying that no OLED type (PHOLED, TOLED etc.) will allow this holy grail then where the pixel is lit for the entirety of the 1/60th of a second, and then only (potentially) changes once that 1/60th second is complete?
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post #808 of 5865
1/18/09 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

No interpolation if you just repeat each frame again. a, a, b, b, c, c etc..

Repeating frames has no benefit regarding blur unless duty cycle is reduced.



Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

I assume you mean in the case of OLED that this holds. Intrinsically, eliminating flicker is a 'Good Thing' and doesn't necessarily lead to blur, except in the case of OLED, LCD etc where a side effect is unfortunately produced.

Hold type blur is created on your retina irrespective of display type or technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

IAm I still right in saying that no OLED type (PHOLED, TOLED etc.) will allow this holy grail then where the pixel is lit for the entirety of the 1/60th of a second, and then only (potentially) changes once that 1/60th second is complete?

You are not right. In fact, the holy grail you speak of is actually a tradeoff that OLED needs to employ to improve lifetime. And more specifically to your question, OLED is entirely capable of 100% duty cycle (ie - lit for the entire 1/60th of second)
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post #809 of 5865
1/18/09 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinbee View Post

I assume you mean in the case of OLED that this holds. Intrinsically, eliminating flicker is a 'Good Thing' and doesn't necessarily lead to blur, except in the case of OLED, LCD etc where a side effect is unfortunately produced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Hold type blur is created on your retina irrespective of display type or technology.

As Xrox says, the blur is caused by they way the retina reacts to an image with an 100% duty cycle. If someone designed a new type of plasma display that didn't use PWM and had an 100% duty cycle, it would also have motion artifacts.

Flicker is neither a "Good Thing" nor a "Bad Thing" intrinsically. Designers need to balance factors like flicker, blur, light output and product lifespan when deciding on the duty cycle it uses.
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post #810 of 5865
1/18/09 at 10:02pm
Wow. Just wow.

If you guys are right, then I don't think I've been more wrong about something - this assumption I made about movement turns out to based on a faulty premise. I've often disliked 30fps refresh rates, and I suppose that seemed blurry to me, but I always thought the move to 60fps (even with full duty cycle) would remove blur completely (how wrong was I).

This is probably not the right thread to discuss this, so I may take the discussion elsewhere, but my mind is bursting with questions (of course). I'll just ask two for now:

Q1: Just to make sure we're speaking on the same wavelength, just confirm this will produce blurry motion:
(KEY: T=time in 1/60ths of a second; P1=pixel 1; P2=pixel 2 (just to the right of P1); P3=Pixel 3 (right of P2); P4=pixel 4 (right of P3) )

T p1 p2 p3 p4
0 on off off off
1 off on off off
2 off off on off
3 off off off on

That will simply show a pixel moving from left to right. So just to double check, I assume it will blur then if those measurements are followed exactly.

Q2: Will it still blur if the last fraction of a fraction (say 1/500th of a second) is pitch black? Or is something like 50%/50% better? Or perhaps mostly black is even better still where the pixel is on for a very very short time (say one tenth of 1/60th sec), and most of it remains off (nine tenths of 1/60th sec). In that last case, although the flicker is at its worst, the motion blur will be minimised almost completely I'm guessing.

It would seem the 'holy grail' has now turned into where everything is shot at 500 fps and shown at that rate too. Maybe wait another 50 years for that to develop ;D
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