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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 269

post #8041 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Here is some rather bad news for OLED fans right from Samsung at CES.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/01/09/reviewed-ces-hs-kim/4400101/
To be honest, I'm not particularly surprised and I'm not overly distressed.

All it does is solidify my belief that the next TV I buy will be an LG OLED set (assuming, that is, that manufacture ramps up in the second half of this year and that prices match expectations set by the decline during 2013 in costs of their existing OLED sets).

My brand preference would probably be for Samsung over LG, given that I trust them more when it comes to conventional plasma and LED tech. But when it comes to OLED, all the reading I've done lately suggests that LG's approach is less problematic, and less likely to suffer over the long-term from issues such as blue-pixel fade. And on top of that, expert reviews suggest there is very little to split the LG and Samsung sets in terms of picture performance (which I've seen, and is amazing).

Of course, I should expect that prices might tumble dramatically not long afterwards as the technology is (hopefully) mastered, but given that I've nursed my faithful old CRT for so long, and could have bought two or maybe even three high-end replacements in that time, I reckon I might be able to justify an expenditure sooner rather than later.

Desk
Edited by Desk. - 1/10/14 at 7:20am
post #8042 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Karma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I don't do this, but his article was quite similar to mine... which ran earlier.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2014/01/07/tvs-that-bend-stretch-clear-signs-of-a-desperate-industry/

(Not saying he even read mine; just that we saw the same universe unfolding....)
Sony told Gary Merson the quantum-dot film was being removed from the 2014 models.

Sony will use the quantum-dot film in their 2014 models....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510298/sony-uhdtvs-at--ces-2014


according C|NET
one model wil use quantum dots - XBR X850B
post #8043 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Here is some rather bad news for OLED fans right from Samsung at CES.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/01/09/reviewed-ces-hs-kim/4400101/

He said there : "Not many consumers tried to purchase OLED TVs at that price," Kim said. "Price was our greatest barrier. So our attempt to expand the market didn't really go well."The unfriendly prices, he acknowledged, are due primarily to difficulties plaguing the OLED manufacturing process. "I'm really, really terribly sorry to say this, but it will take more time. … I believe it will take around three to four years."

I think that If as in the quota above Samsung makes us wait 4 years to buy their OLED tv for reasonable price I wait for LG 55 inch ( or eg 49 inch if appears one ) priced of 2500 euro on shelves and buy, I am not going to wait 4 years for OLED TV because Samsung, Sony or Panasonic has problems.

People from Polish forum were at CES and found out that by the end of 2014 Lg is going to offer in Europe ( assembled in POLAND ) 55 inch OLED TV ( new basic model ) for official price 5000 euro ( which means in reality 5000 $ in USA ) but you know that prices on shelves are lower so we can expect that one can buy 55 inch bacic OLED TV for 3500 to 4000 by the end of 2014. In UK 55 inch LG Oled tv costs 4999 pounds today so it is reality not dreams.
Edited by michaelmichael - 1/10/14 at 7:50am
post #8044 of 9473
It's only a matter of time before the Chinese TV manufacturers begin to have an impact.

Hisense even had a 55-inch Full HD OLED TV on show and although they said it was still in development it looked ready to launch as far as we could see. We watched a number of demos on the Hisense OLED and saw the same kind of superb images that we saw on OLED screens from both LG and Samsung

TCL also had a 55-inch OLED Full HD TV which, unlike Hisense, they plan to release soon. Again, all the demo material at the TCL stand looked excellent and there really was nothing to distinguish their performance from that of the more famous brands.

http://www.avforums.com/article/ces-2014-first-look-at-the-latest-chinese-ultra-hd-and-oled-tvs.9776

Haier and Skyworth also showed OLED TVs. It is believed these are all based on LG's oled panel. LG's new line should be in production in Q4.
post #8045 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelmichael View Post

People from Polish forum were at CES and found out that by the end of 2014 Lg is going to offer in Europe ( assembled in POLAND ) 55 inch OLED TV ( new basic model ) for official price 5000 euro ( which means in reality 5000 $ in USA )

 

Why does 5000€ in Poland mean $5000 in USA?

 

The exchange changes by the second, but 5000€ is currently around $6800 USD.  Are the USA TV market prices typically deflated?

post #8046 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Why does 5000€ in Poland mean $5000 in USA?

The exchange changes by the second, but 5000€ is currently around $6800 USD.  Are the USA TV market prices typically deflated?

I sometimes compare prices in USA and in EU countries and because of taxes eg Value Added Tax from 19 % to even 23% in Poland , Television that costs 1000 $ in USA , has price of more or less close to 1000 euro in Europe. Duty matters as well I think.
post #8047 of 9473
post #8048 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Here is some rather bad news for OLED fans right from Samsung at CES.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/01/09/reviewed-ces-hs-kim/4400101/
Quote:
"Not many consumers tried to purchase OLED TVs at that price," Kim said. "Price was our greatest barrier. So our attempt to expand the market didn't really go well."

The unfriendly prices, he acknowledged, are due primarily to difficulties plaguing the OLED manufacturing process. "I'm really, really terribly sorry to say this, but it will take more time. … I believe it will take around three to four years."

I wonder what LG's response will be to this. cool.gif
post #8049 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Ces 2014: NO Samsung OLED TV for 3 to 4 years

So... I guess they are saying OLED will be ready and affordable in 3-4 years? That's quicker than I thought! smile.gif
post #8050 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Ces 2014: NO Samsung OLED TV for 3 to 4 years

... from Samsung.

- Rich
post #8051 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Ces 2014: NO Samsung OLED TV for 3 to 4 years

That's it, I'm done waiting on OLED, moving over to the new 55" Vizio ASAP.
Sorry guys for bailing.


Via my iPhone 5s using Tapatalk
post #8052 of 9473
^Why does your decision hinge upon what Samsung's plans are? I might end up going the Chinese route at this rate. I only hope at least a 65" panel will arrive by next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

... from Samsung.

- Rich
Hello redundancy. Isn't that what the article already states? "No Samsung OLED..."
post #8053 of 9473
I'm trying to understand what forum members here think has changed and why they think OLED isn't moving forward fast enough. Here's a couple posts from this thread back in June. It seems to me things are progressing pretty much as expected.

1. Panasonic had never planned to release anything in 2014 or even early in 2015. See post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Panasonic Plans to Have OLED HDTVs by 2015

Source: (Article has been removed)

Panasonic’s CTO, Yoshiyuki Miyabe, announced earlier this week that the company is looking to launch their first OLED TVs by the end of the 2015 fiscal year. That actually equates to sometime by March 2016. The only details known are from the demos that Panasonic has shown. Currently, the company is showing off a 56 inch display featuring 4K (3840 x 2160) resolution. We probably won’t hear more about the TVs until it get closer to a release date.


2. Prices have always expected to remain high for the next several years. Here's a clip of a post from Rogo describing his expectations for 55" OLED pricing based on the original $13K prince in 2013 and how that might compare with LCD prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The history of TV price declines, for what it's worth, is that 30% compounded reductions are about the best you will ever see.

Using that and starting with $13,000.....
2014: $9100
2015: $6370
2016: $4450
2017: $3121

(Using $10,000 as a baseline, you get $7000, $4900, $3430, $2400 incidentally. Of course, 4 years of compounded 30% reductions is a lot of "ifs" turning into reality.)

That, of course, is nowhere near price parity as in 2013, a flagship 55-inch LCD launches at $2500 and falls lower later in the model year. It's hard to imagine a flagship LCD will be anymore than that in 2017, but it's easy to imagine it will be <$2000.

Fortunately, I was using cost, not price, so I wouldn't be surprised to see OLED reach price parity sometime around 2017. Of course, I wouldn't be floored by the opposite either. The cost reductions are driven by the learning curve and volumes. At this point, volumes are so infinitesimal -- and will remain so through all of next year -- we realistically won't see much in the way of cost reductions until 2015, despite the graph you see above.


3. More info on expected costs from last June:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Low Manufacturing Yields to Keep Cost of AMOLED TV Panels High for Several Years, According to NPD DisplaySearch


Source: DisplaySearch

Santa Clara, California, June 12, 2013—The first 55" AMOLED TV is on the market, with others expected to follow; however, the cost of AMOLED panels will remain very high compared to TFT LCD display panels, limiting adoption by consumers. Current manufacturing costs for AMOLED (Active-Matrix Organic Light-Emitting Diode) display panels are estimated to be almost seven times higher than costs for the LCD panels that now dominate the TV market, according to the new NPD DisplaySearch Quarterly AMOLED Panel Cost Report.

“The estimated total manufacturing cost of a full-HD 55" panel is $2,454 in Q1’13, due to low manufacturing yields,” according to Tadashi Uno, Director of Materials and Components Market Research for NPD DisplaySearch. “As yields improve, the cost is expected to fall significantly over the next two years, but will remain much higher than equivalent LCD panels.”

Edited by Rich Peterson - 1/10/14 at 12:00pm
post #8054 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post



according C|NET
one model wil use quantum dots - XBR X850B

No, all three series of Sony's models will use quantum-dot technology
post #8055 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Why does 5000€ in Poland mean $5000 in USA? The exchange changes by the second, but 5000€ is currently around $6800 USD.  Are the USA TV market prices typically deflated?

In Europe there is typically ~20+% Value Added Tax on goods which in addition to fragmented country markets results in 1:1 €/$ exchange rate.
post #8056 of 9473
Nevermind.
post #8057 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Karma View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post



according C|NET one model wil use quantum dots - XBR X850B

No, all three series of Sony's models will use quantum-dot technology

 

He supplied a link.  If you're to counter it, please supply a link as well.

post #8058 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Karma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post



according C|NET
one model wil use quantum dots - XBR X850B

No, all three series of Sony's models will use quantum-dot technology

He supplied a link.  If you're to counter it, please supply a link as well.

Haha.... you guys are funny. The W950B series and up all have Triluminos backlighting! Sony says so on their own product page for the new models announced at CES 2014!

http://store.sony.com/-cms-ces.2014.television.landing.page?SR=hero:2:CEStelevision:4kUltraHD:ss

tongue.gif
post #8059 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Karma View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post



according C|NET one model wil use quantum dots - XBR X850B

No, all three series of Sony's models will use quantum-dot technology

He supplied a link.  If you're to counter it, please supply a link as well.

Haha.... you guys are funny. The W950B series and up all have Triluminos backlighting! Sony says so on their own product page for the new models announced at CES 2014!

http://store.sony.com/-cms-ces.2014.television.landing.page?SR=hero:2:CEStelevision:4kUltraHD:ss

tongue.gif

 

Yes, they're calling it Triluminus.  The problem is, that's marketing-speak (a trademark), not a scientific term.  There's no way to know what it is and we're getting conflicting information.

post #8060 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

It doesn't though.  I've looked at those photos, and still can't figure out what you're talking about.
Cameras have a flat sensor, and humans have a curved retina - so you won't see it in a photo.
I can definitely see why a curved display could actually provide a better experience... except nothing is shot on a curved sensor, so the curve distorts all our current content.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

according C|NET one model wil use quantum dots - XBR X850B
Yes - these are the edge-lit models.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Are the USA TV market prices typically deflated?
This has always been the case - and it gets worse as you start looking at larger sizes. A 70" model might be $5,000 in the US but closer to €10,000 in Europe. At best you expect "parity" between the prices. ($5,000 = €5,000 - which is really $6800) Prices in Japan are often more expensive than most of Europe too.
This applies to almost all electronics, not just AV gear. (computer hardware etc.) For most of this, US is significantly cheaper than the rest of the world, and we subsidize your low cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Why does your decision hinge upon what Samsung's plans are?
If Samsung are now saying OLED is not ready for 3-4 years, what hope is there for OLEDs from the better manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post

Haha.... you guys are funny. The W950B series and up all have Triluminos backlighting! Sony says so on their own product page for the new models announced at CES 2014!
Triluminos means "wide gamut" it does not require that it uses QD film.
post #8061 of 9473
^Has Samsung even stated they are investigating the printing method? The exec clearly seemed to be speaking regarding the method now in use (RGB). That's why I say Samdung's decision means little to nothing, especially in the case of Sony and Panasonic who seem to be much more interested in printing tech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Nevermind.
lol, no worries...I saw your original post thanks to the recent AVS notification upgrades. wink.gif
post #8062 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

I had already written off Samsung for a real commercial ramp in either 2014 or 2015, but this essentially means that they have no idea if/when they are going to solve the technical problems around their OLED approach.

FWIW, there are quotes in the Korean media from LG Display's CEO that indicates that their Gen 8 fab is on track for a 2nd half launch. They mention deposition equipment which has been the open question around the launch of the fab.

http://www.zdnet.co.kr/news/news_view.asp?artice_id=20140107061708
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Ces 2014: NO Samsung OLED TV for 3 to 4 years

So let's just out with it: I told you so. Several times. And I stated the reason pretty clear: Samsung cannot mass produce TVs using their existing production technique and they have no clear knowledge of how they will use any other production technique at this point which might allow for the mass production of OLED TVs.

As for Panasonic, let's not get excited about any plans they have for 2016 when there exists a greater possibility they will not be selling TVs in North America than that they will be selling affordable OLED TVs anywhere by then.

As for LG, let's see if they stick to those timetables. The promise (broken several times, bent others) is that their WRGB approach allows for easier production and that once they debugged it and mastered IGZO, they'd be able to scale up reasonably well. If the 8G fab comes online and the 4K product starts to appear in multiple sizes (at any price), it's a sign they intend to at least push the technology. LG is very accustomed to playing catchup with Samsung. They would be more than delighted to have what will amount to a 3-year lead on their rival. All that said...

I remain of the opinion that printing OLEDs is more scalable/efficient than LG's method which is messy, slow, multi-step and, honestly a bit Rube Goldberg in the way it displays the picture.

If/when/whether OLEDs are to displace LCD TVs (and once again, it's pretty clearly the "if" we posited earlier in this decade that many just ignored), it will require a production process that delivers on the promised ease of manufacturing OLED offers as well as its full promise as a technology. Otherwise, the "good enough" of LCD TV, which will continue to get relentless cheaper thanks to China, will be difficult to displace.
post #8063 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post


If Samsung are now saying OLED is not ready for 3-4 years, what hope is there for OLEDs from the better manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic?

Ironic you use "better mfrs." to refer to people who don't manufacture any important parts of the TV.
Quote:
Triluminos means "wide gamut" it does not require that it uses QD film.

Yep, correct.
post #8064 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

He supplied a link.  If you're to counter it, please supply a link as well.

http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html
post #8065 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Triluminos means "wide gamut" it does not require that it uses QD film.

Yes, my XBR8 is a "Triluminos" display and it has a FALD RGB LED BLU and not ColorIQ tech. Derp! Katzmeier's article stirred up speculation about implementation (i.e. shenanigans) amongst some of you, for which I strongly doubt much has changed other than with the X950B series having FALD.
post #8066 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Karma View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

He supplied a link.  If you're to counter it, please supply a link as well.

http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html

 

LOL.  You have an interesting way of admitting you were wrong.  I'll take it.

post #8067 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgb32 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Triluminos means "wide gamut" it does not require that it uses QD film.

Yes, my XBR8 is a "Triluminos" display and it has a FALD RGB LED BLU and not ColorIQ tech. Derp! Katzmeier's article stirred up speculation about implementation (i.e. shenanigans) amongst some of you, for which I strongly doubt much has changed other than with the X950B series having FALD.

 

I'm not sure anyone was crying foul; I think we were just interested in whether or not they felt it important to abandon QD or not.  And if so, why.

post #8068 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Cameras have a flat sensor, and humans have a curved retina - so you won't see it in a photo.
I can definitely see why a curved display could actually provide a better experience... except nothing is shot on a curved sensor, so the curve distorts all our current content.
Curved screens have been used i cinemas since the 1950s, nobody have said they cause distortion.
In cinemas the curved screen even correct for certain geometric distortions caused by anamorphic lenses.
My guess is that it is from cinema tradition of curved screens this idea for using it on TVs comes from.

If you talk about screen curvature with high-end screen enthusiast Cineramax here on AVS, you will be told that the most perfect screen is the Torus screen. biggrin.gif
post #8069 of 9473
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Cameras have a flat sensor, and humans have a curved retina - so you won't see it in a photo.
I can definitely see why a curved display could actually provide a better experience... except nothing is shot on a curved sensor, so the curve distorts all our current content.
Curved screens have been used i cinemas since the 1950s, nobody have said they cause distortion.

 

I have.  I hated curved screens in theaters, unless they're very very slight (just enough to correct for focus).  In fact I used the same exact wording that Chronoptimist used here and conversationally in the distant past.  Words to the effect of "The film & sensors are flat."  If the resulting display vehicle is to contort the image, the light should have first struck a similarly contorted sensor: in this way any distortions introduced onto the sensor would be "un"-distorted from the screen to your eyes.

post #8070 of 9473
The manufactures are clear where the ides for the curved screen comes from, namely, to differentiate the sets from flat screens in an effort to sell them. Pure and simple. I see no reason to keep arguing it is from anything else.
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